Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

vector

The starting pay of a clerical officer in the public service (i.e. govt depts) is only 21k

This is managable, sure, if you live with your parents, or in the countryside (cheaper rent) but...

Question:
How could anyone in Dublin actually exist on this salary? Does PublicJobs.ie have difficulty filling Clerical officer positions in Dublin.
IS everyone at this grade actually also working at nighttime in another job to make ends meet?

Some googling suggests that in the UK there is a "London allowance" but not so here in Ireland?

Undercover

vector wrote: »

The starting pay of a clerical officer in the public service (i.e. govt depts) is only 21k

This is managable, sure, if you live with your parents, or in the countryside (cheaper rent) but...

Question:
How could anyone in Dublin actually exist on this salary? Does PublicJobs.ie have difficulty filling Clerical officer positions in Dublin.
IS everyone at this grade actually also working at nighttime in another job to make ends meet?

Some googling suggests that in the UK there is a "London allowance" but not so here in Ireland?

It's a struggle, no doubt. I pay €500 rent per month and there's not much left over for I incidentals.

It's an entry level position and theres plenty lower paid jobs out there.

Arcade_Tryer

Deleted User wrote: »

It's an entry level position and theres plenty lower paid jobs out there.

There aren't many lower paid jobs in Dublin for similar work. Obviously many private sector jobs don't have benefits such as security, pension and flexible hours however. Still, it's a shockingly low wage for someone living in Dublin and renting.

snowflaker

Its short term pain for long term gain.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Arcade_Tryer

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

There aren't many lower paid jobs in Dublin for similar work.

That's not what i said tho.

Indeed, there are many lower paid jobs with far less handy work.

And i didn't even bring the hours, weekends off, pension, security and progression into it.

coldcake

A lot of COs wouldn't even enjoy much more than the basic state pension, so don't believe the hype about gold plated pension for lower grades.

snowflaker

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Excellent pension and promotion prospects

coldcake

coldcake wrote: »

A lot of COs wouldn't even enjoy much more than the basic state pension, so don't believe the hype about gold plated pension for lower grades.

You're presuming that this notional CO doesn't get promoted in 40 years.

Again, setting that person against their private sector equivalent, I can't see where they lose out here.

Arcade_Tryer

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not what i said tho.

Indeed, there are many lower paid jobs with far less handy work.

And i didn't even bring the hours, weekends off, pension, security and progression into it.

And there are many higher paid jobs with much more handy work. Which makes the point redundant. You can only compare like with like. And for the specific role of Clerical Officer, it's a very low salary compared to the private sector equivalent in Dublin. And of course this is compensated by the additional benefits of working in the public sector.

Arcade_Tryer

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

And there are many higher paid jobs with much more handy work. Which makes the point redundant. You can only compare like with like. And for the specific role of Clerical Officer, it's a very low salary compared to the private sector equivalent in Dublin. And of course this is compensated by the additional benefits of working in the public sector.

I hear ya, to be fair. The entry requirements for CO are getting more and more onerous in order to stand a good chance, so yes in that sense you should be raising the bar against what else the applicant might be looking at. But at the same time I'd point to manys the Tesco, Starbucks, Spar employee with a double masters.

And as a further point I'd argue that the increased standard of CO applicant is actually now manifesting itself in a leapfrog effect in terms of quick advancement over ..... incumbent/static longer serving CO and even many EO staff members once the CO has their two years served and AO/HEO comps are run.

I don't have figures but I've observed plenty of internal and interdepartmental comps in the past few years with well qualified but fairly new joined COs promoted in successive years or skipping grades.

But it's tough to see the point of complaining about the pay absent all other factors!

AndrewJRenko

snowflaker wrote: »

Excellent pension and promotion prospects

You know that the clerical officer grade will get little or nothing beyond the standard State contributory old age pension when they retire, right?

Arcade_Tryer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You know that the clerical officer grade will get little or nothing beyond the standard State contributory old age pension when they retire, right?

Emphasis strongly on the promotion prospects!

testicles

This post has been deleted.

athtrasna

Plenty of them have second jobs at weekend/night. And not just in Dublin either. Have friends and family in the civil service and they almost all had other income when they started out

jp101

The key benefit in the Public Sector is the guaranteed pay increases. The CO grade starts at 21,879 and ends at 35,471 It goes up as follows every year – 23,375 – 23,756 – 24,498 – 25,592 – 26,684 – 27,777 – 28,869 – 29,931 – 30,995 – 31,743 – 32,795 – 33,840 – 35,471.

I think these points are all going up by €1,000 shortly.

So 8 years later you can be doing the very same job and be paid over €30k.

The_Conductor

jp101 wrote: »

The key benefit in the Public Sector is the guaranteed pay increases. The CO grade starts at 21,879 and ends at 35,471 It goes up as follows every year – 23,375 – 23,756 – 24,498 – 25,592 – 26,684 – 27,777 – 28,869 – 29,931 – 30,995 – 31,743 – 32,795 – 33,840 – 35,471.

I think these points are all going up by €1,000 shortly.

So 8 years later you can be doing the very same job and be paid over €30k.

You'd have to be in the job 9 years go over 30k- and a full 20 years to reach the top of the salary scale.

The fact of the matter is- there are two types of people who go for CO posts-

1. Highly motivated people who see it as an entry level position- but a stepping stone towards where they want to eventually end up (where-ever that is).

2. People who view the job as a part-time post between bringing up children and whatever else is going on in their lives.

Group 1- are more than a little unhappy of late- as the majority of all civil service posts, including those posts that were traditionally promotion only posts, are either being abolished, or opened up to external competition for the first time. So- the SO post- which is the traditional promotional post for COs- is gone altogether (the 1,340 holders are being amalgamated onto the EO grade- but allowed keep their annual leave- which is superior to that of the EO grade). However- the HEO grade- the next promotion only grade- is now open recruitment- as are absolutely every other grade.

Group 2- its a job that's getting them out of the house, but they're certainly not in it for the money- if you sat down and did the math, you'd honestly be better off in McDonalds (which actually has a really good promotional record for staff, something a lot of people may not realise).

The civil service is not a cosy cabal- and there are a lot of people quite shell shocked when they realise that the stories they've heard- have little if any resemblance to what the situation actually is.

As for the EO salary scale- its 18 years to reach the top of that scale (currently about 47k).

People do not join the civil service for the salary or the pension- there are other benefits (such as the ability to take unpaid leave to be with your children in the summertime- or working mornings or afternoon's only- along with flexitime- but the salary and/or the pension- is not why people join the civil service).

Kimbot

The_Conductor wrote: »

You'd have to be in the job 9 years go over 30k- and a full 20 years to reach the top of the salary scale.

The fact of the matter is- there are two types of people who go for CO posts-

1. Highly motivated people who see it as an entry level position- but a stepping stone towards where they want to eventually end up (where-ever that is).

2. People who view the job as a part-time post between bringing up children and whatever else is going on in their lives.

Group 1- are more than a little unhappy of late- as the majority of all civil service posts, including those posts that were traditionally promotion only posts, are either being abolished, or opened up to external competition for the first time. So- the SO post- which is the traditional promotional post for COs- is gone altogether (the 1,340 holders are being amalgamated onto the EO grade- but allowed keep their annual leave- which is superior to that of the EO grade). However- the HEO grade- the next promotion only grade- is now open recruitment- as are absolutely every other grade.

Group 2- its a job that's getting them out of the house, but they're certainly not in it for the money- if you sat down and did the math, you'd honestly be better off in McDonalds (which actually has a really good promotional record for staff, something a lot of people may not realise).

The civil service is not a cosy cabal- and there are a lot of people quite shell shocked when they realise that the stories they've heard- have little if any resemblance to what the situation actually is.

As for the EO salary scale- its 18 years to reach the top of that scale (currently about 47k).

People do not join the civil service for the salary or the pension- there are other benefits (such as the ability to take unpaid leave to be with your children in the summertime- or working mornings or afternoon's only- along with flexitime- but the salary and/or the pension- is not why people join the civil service).

Conductor, how is the SO annual leave better than an EO, both can hit a max of 25 days??

The_Conductor

jonnycivic wrote: »

Conductor, how is the SO annual leave better than an EO, both can hit a max of 25 days??

Several Departments have a 'Senior Staff Officer' grade with 27 days annual leave entitlement. The standard Staff officer is 25 days- and the junior staff officer is 23 days.

The EO grade isn't broken up like this- it has a standard 25 days in the civil service (however, and a massive bone of contention- in the public sector, other than in the civil service, the EO grade has a 'standardised leave year of 30 days'). A recent finding by Tribunal found in favour of awarding additional leave to the EO grade- however, suggested it be broached as part of the follow on talks on a new industrial agreement- rather than being dealt with separately.

PSEU have a write-up on it on their website.

myshirt

How about get a job as a trainee accountant or solicitor outside the big practices. 15k you'd be talking. After all your investment and effort, 450+ in your leaving cert, 2.1 degree, and 4 years of lost earnings as a full time student, the 21k from a CO looks tempting!

It's a low skill job. If anything 21k is not unreasonable at all.

Kimbot

The_Conductor wrote: »

Several Departments have a 'Senior Staff Officer' grade with 27 days annual leave entitlement. The standard Staff officer is 25 days- and the junior staff officer is 23 days.

The EO grade isn't broken up like this- it has a standard 25 days in the civil service (however, and a massive bone of contention- in the public sector, other than in the civil service, the EO grade has a 'standardised leave year of 30 days'). A recent finding by Tribunal found in favour of awarding additional leave to the EO grade- however, suggested it be broached as part of the follow on talks on a new industrial agreement- rather than being dealt with separately.

PSEU have a write-up on it on their website.

Ah good man, thanks for that I never knew there was a "Senior Staff Officer". Yeah i seen the EO leave thing on RTE last week. I was asking cos I am one of the SO's getting the EO so making sure I was on the right leave etc

The_Conductor

myshirt wrote: »

How about get a job as a trainee accountant or solicitor outside the big practices. 15k you'd be talking. After all your investment and effort, 450+ in your leaving cert, 2.1 degree, and 4 years of lost earnings as a full time student, the 21k from a CO looks tempting!

Not really when you factor in the deductions that are unique to the public sector-

Usc
Paye
Prsi
Prd
Pension Surv 1.5%
Pension (Lump Sum)
Pension 3.5%
CPSU 11.40

USC- fine
PAYE- fine
PRSI- fine
PRD (Pension related deduction)- not fine- the salary doesn't support this deduction. Depends on your salary- but for an SO or EO- 4.5% is typical
Pension Surv 1.5% (a flatrate 1.5% deduction) for whats colloquially known as 'the widows and orphans scheme'. - Not fine- good luck to anyone trying to claim it......
Pension (Lump Sum) - another 1.5% deduction
Pension 3.5% (once again- on this salary- you'll only get the PRSI pension anyway- so why pay for something that won't get you anything?)
CPSU - that's a union dues

In total- aside from all the normal deductions- you're paying 11% towards pension contributions for something you can't claim......... Actually- that's nuts. Is there any way for COs to opt out of the central pension schemes? If a CO were to start today- and view the job as a part-time job while they're bring up kids, or whatever- they're getting totally gipped by all the deductions.

Arcade_Tryer

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not saying that all. I'm saying promotion prospects are a far better bet for securing a decent standard of living than relying on the pitiful pension for new entrants.

myshirt wrote: »

How about get a job as a trainee accountant or solicitor outside the big practices. 15k you'd be talking. After all your investment and effort, 450+ in your leaving cert, 2.1 degree, and 4 years of lost earnings as a full time student, the 21k from a CO looks tempting!

It's a low skill job. If anything 21k is not unreasonable at all.

If you'd have studied economics, you'd have learnt something called the Permanent Income Hypothesis.

Mrs OBumble

myshirt wrote: »

How about get a job as a trainee accountant or solicitor outside the big practices. 15k you'd be talking..

Indeed. Along with 20 days annual leave, no flexi time, no paid sick leave.

The_Conductor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed. Along with 20 days annual leave, no flexi time, no paid sick leave.

To be honest- a CO starts on 22 days sick leave- 2 days above the statutory min- and the max a CO can get to is 24 days (after 10 years). Any accountant could reasonably assume they'd have more leave than this- after 10 days......

As for flexi- its a privillege, not a right- and you don't automatically get it- I've worked in sections where it was religiously assumed to be a right- and other sections- where it simply doesn't exist.........

You also aren't much better off than on statutory sick leave pay from social welfare- than you are on work pay- and you're expected to claim it as the major part of paid sick leave- its topped up to your minimum contract hours by your employer.

Also- as anyone who has a long term illness will tell you- the norm is for people who are disabled or suffering from LTIs- to use sick leave as sparingly as possible- and for example, if you're in hospital for a few days- try to take it out of your annual leave and/or flexi-leave- to preserve your limited sick leave for when you most need it. Its not supposed to be what happens- but the way sick leave was changed- anyone who has any LTI is terrified to use sick leave if at all possible- as the way its calculated means you can be in on half pay or no pay very very quickly- if you have a few episodes at all over a 4 year period. Keep in mind a Friday or a Monday is counted as 3 days.

You seem to have quite a rosy opinion of sickleave in the civil service- anyone who really needs it, wouldn't share your opinion..........

boobycharlton

The_Conductor wrote: »

Not really when you factor in the deductions that are unique to the public sector-

Usc
Paye
Prsi
Prd
Pension Surv 1.5%
Pension (Lump Sum)
Pension 3.5%
CPSU 11.40

USC- fine
PAYE- fine
PRSI- fine
PRD (Pension related deduction)- not fine- the salary doesn't support this deduction. Depends on your salary- but for an SO or EO- 4.5% is typical
Pension Surv 1.5% (a flatrate 1.5% deduction) for whats colloquially known as 'the widows and orphans scheme'. - Not fine- good luck to anyone trying to claim it......
Pension (Lump Sum) - another 1.5% deduction
Pension 3.5% (once again- on this salary- you'll only get the PRSI pension anyway- so why pay for something that won't get you anything?)
CPSU - that's a union dues

In total- aside from all the normal deductions- you're paying 11% towards pension contributions for something you can't claim......... Actually- that's nuts. Is there any way for COs to opt out of the central pension schemes? If a CO were to start today- and view the job as a part-time job while they're bring up kids, or whatever- they're getting totally gipped by all the deductions.

Is there any way for a new CO to opt out of the pension scheme? I've just been hired and would be very interested if so.

Arcade_Tryer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Indeed. Along with 20 days annual leave, no flexi time, no paid sick leave.

Indeed. Sure why would anyone bother going to college at all when they can stroll into such a desirable clerical officer role in the Civil Service.

Maybe this Irish Times article on the average salary for a qualified accountant in Ireland might shed some light on the situation.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/chartered-accountants-sitting-pretty-after-big-salary-rises-1.2308822

pilly

The_Conductor wrote:

You seem to have quite a rosy opinion of sickleave in the civil service- anyone who really needs it, wouldn't share your opinion..........

Try having no sick leave at all and it might make your own view more rosy.

The_Conductor

pilly wrote: »

Try having no sick leave at all and it might make your own view more rosy.

I've been there- working in a call centre for a US multinational, while doing a 4 shifts a week in McDonalds that paid better......... I've honestly seen both sides of the coin. Neither are as portrayed in the media. The only saving grace I've had in both the private and the public sector- was the ability to fall back on social welfare entitlements when I was unable to work.

The workplace- in either the private or the public sector- is not kind to those who have life long medical conditions, or disabilities- regardless of the fuzzy sounding niceties that get wheeled out to the media.

I can honestly say the most understanding and helpful company I ever worked for- was McDonalds. The pay wasn't great and some of the shifts were like hell- but the managers were highly competent, and it was a good place to work (at the time anyway). As a civil service employee- I've seen brilliant people and appalling people- being treated in an identical manner- and I've seen people die at their desk (an AP of mine- literally passed away at his desk), colleagues commit suicide (2 Departments), and have passed out myself in work on more than one occasion- when I really shouldn't have been present.

A rather unusual and stark statistic- is the life expectancies in different professions. Its used for the calculation of annuities (FRS17 declarations etc). A female civil servant's life expectancy is 2.2 years below the national average. A male civil servant's life expectancy is 6.8 years below the national average. With the exception of the construction and farming professions- civil servants are the third highest profession featuring death-in-service (which is alluded to in the annual death in service statistics published by DPER).

Funnily enough- the public sector at large- does not feature the same stark statistics.

There is a CSO breakdown featuring these statistics up to the end of 2015- due to be published on the 6th of April (same day as the census results are out).

AndrewJRenko

jp101 wrote: »

The key benefit in the Public Sector is the guaranteed pay increases.

In my 25 years in private sector roles, I got salary increases each year, way beyond the extend of a public sector salary scale.