Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

Calina

Technocentral wrote: »

Starting salary is 22,179, still far off the 28 or so necessary to live in Dublin.

IMO, 28K is less than what is necessary to live in Dublin. It might be possible to exist, but living...

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Public transport is far cheaper than ownership of a car, which many people outside of Dublin must do to get to work and generally move around. Also have to disagree, there is far better value for money in terms of food and drink (maybe not pubs) in Dublin than the rest of the country. Renting is the big cost, and the only real significant difference, which is why there should be a rent subsidy. LPT is higher because the house is worth more!

Public transport in Ireland is depressingly expensive. I live in Luxembourg where a monthly city transport ticket costs 25E. Cough up 50E and that gets you the entire country. Added to that, public transport in Dublin is appallingly unreliable from the point of view of planning.

I priced living in Limerick on 28KE as well by the way. Not really doable either although if you were around 22 it was probably more of an option than it would be in Dublin. Dublin is not the only place in the country where you wind up renting although it is obviously, significantly more gouging than Limerick is. I'm not 22.

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only significant difference in cost between Dublin and the rest of the country is renting though. So giving someone who is not paying rent an extra 10-15% salary just because they work in Dublin would be insane. It has very little to do with begrudging people, and a lot to do with fairness.
I highly doubt a significant salary increase for Dublin workers would wash with the rest of the country. And justifiably so.

The key issue in the main urban areas across the country is available rent. Increasing CO salaries or EO or AO salaries is not going to fix the cost of rent problem. Dublin supplements is not going to fix this problem. There is a property supply problem linked to a lot of properties just not reaching either rental or sales market. Part of that is airbnb, part of that is the utterly dysfunctional rental market which means lots of people are not moving as fluidly as they used to because they are trying to protect comparatively low rents, perhaps or they cannot afford to move.

Everyone seems to be suggesting doing something about the income side but providing a rental supplement in the tight markets is not a subsidy to people working in Dublin, it's a supplement to landlords and it's not going to fix things on the supply side. My view is that perhaps you need to ensure property is not being hoarded onto the tourist market, or held unused because renting it out is too much hassle. Again, deal with that and you aren't just benefiting the COs, EOs and AOs, but the entire private sector underpaid as well. My suggestion would be a hefty wealth tax on property which is clearly residential but not occupied as residential (ie, get the year round tourist rentals as well). Problem of course is you'd see the property market slow down in terms of price rises but I'm not certain that this is a bad thing in the long term economic interests of the country.

doc22

noodler wrote: »

You quoted the wrong (higher scale).

That link shows the standard co scale at 22.

here's the 2008 scale

The_Conductor

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The only significant difference in cost between Dublin and the rest of the country is renting though. So giving someone who is not paying rent an extra 10-15% salary just because they work in Dublin would be insane. It has very little to do with begrudging people, and a lot to do with fairness..

That's just not true though- pretty much all costs- across the board- are more expensive in the greater Dublin area- than they are in the rest of the country. The starkest difference is not actually in accommodation costs- its in childcare costs- according to CSO figures (supplied by Tusla).

The accommodation costs- while they are higher in Dublin- are similarly higher in much of urban Cork and Galway- and not that far off in some of our other towns and cities.

The manner in which to assist with accommodation costs- is not to give people more money to chase scarce housing (and ultimately simply drive up the price of housing to their new found income levels)- its to increase the supply of housing- independently of all other factors. This is why the price of new houses has increased by 10% year to-date- its a reflection of the simple fact that first-time buyers have a commensurate higher amount to spend on housing- and are incrementing it onto the price they are willing to pay.

Yes- its damn difficult affording accommodation in the greater Dublin area- however, everyone is in the same boat- and chasing the same limited housing supplies- subsidising employees, be they public or private sector- is not the answer.

Personally- what I'd like to see the unions fighting for- is additional bank holidays that would benefit all working employees- we've already the lowest number in Europe (thanks in no small part to the large number of US multinationals with operations here). Incrementing our meagre number of bankholidays- would be a low cost manner of giving something to all employees- which might not necessarily bug employers unduly.

As for the CPSU fight to have the working day for civil servants wound back to 6.57 from its current 7.24- its 27 minutes a day- not a massive amount- but are civil servants doing 27 minutes extra work- as is argued by the Official Side- or are they all pissed off and taking extended tea breaks in lieu of something that none of them agreed with in the first instance- in which case the argument that giving up the 27 minutes a day would make them less productive- simply doesn't stack up.

There are so many ways to trying to find middle ground- that doesn't involve pay rises- yet, the mood seems to be needlessly combative on the part of all?

TheAnalyst_

I could'nt live in Dublin on principal officer money. You'd be better off on the dole with CO salaries. The rental value on that place that Saint Eric Fleming got is about the monthly take home pay of a CO.

noodler

doc22 wrote: »

here's the 2008 scale

Yeah but remember the 22k current has the ten percent pay cut for new entrants.

The majority of COs in the job when the cuts took place are obviously higher.

If you can't live in Dublin on a PO salary it's mabs you want.

I'd say the same for anyone struggling to live on 28k in Limerick too.

Really losing sight of what a starter job is here folks.

There were something like 27k applicants a few years back for CO open panel.

Whether any individual in the thread would like a better salary that's on offer or not is basically irrelevant if you look at those figures.

TheAnalyst_

4160 per month in Dublin with a wife and two kids? Unlivable.

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

If you can't live in Dublin on a PO salary it's mabs you want.

I'd say the same for anyone struggling to live on 28k in Limerick too.

Really losing sight of what a starter job is here folks.

There were something like 27k applicants a few years back for CO open panel.

Whether any individual in the thread would like a better salary that's on offer or not is basically irrelevant if you look at those figures.

I think you are extremely judgmental.

The fact that there were 27K applicants for the CO open panel does not magically mean that the salary was a liveable salary. The cost of living in Dublin is not a function of how many people want to work as COs in Dublin and the subject of this thread is how anyone can live on a CO salary in Dublin.

The other point that you need to understand is this: the civil service attracts a lot of people who have previously worked in the private sector, up to quite attractive salaries in many cases but who for one reason or another - having children is one - have found themselves outside the work force - unemployment is another - and needing to find a way back to work. The civil service is in my experience one of the fairer ways of getting a job in terms of access to being hired - ie the process is transparent and fair. This is not my experience with much of the tech sector in Dublin to be frank.

No one is looking to live the life of Reilly on a civil service salary. But it'd be nice if you were a bit outside penury. Jesus Christ I could live on my own on a starter salary in Dublin when I came out of college first. YOu couldn't do it now, you can't do it on 21K a year, you can't do it on 28K and to be honest, i'm not sure how high you'd have to go to be able to do it. ANd that's before you feed yourself.

I dare say you could possibly exist in Limerick on 28KE a year but to be blunt about it, it wouldn't be much of a life.

I get that the people of Ireland are cheapskates and don't want to pay for effective public service. I really get it. The message is coming over loud and clear to me in this thread. But if you want cheap labour, expensive housing is not an option. You cannot pay your people lousy money, both private and public sector, and expect them to starve themselves to pay rent. Something is going to have to give.

But I strongly suspect the people complaining about civil servants wanting more money, and passing remarks about the easy work it is are exactly the kind of people who wouldn't want a housing crash because well they are worth it.

Once again, we would not be having this conversation if people could afford to live on their salaries. They can't. But increasing the salaries will not help, ad flutering around with tax allowances and special Dublin living allowances is nothing more than the sticking plaster nonsense that the banks engaged in to create "affordability" for mortgages in the mid2000s. It doesn't fix the problem because the problem isn't that people don't have enough money. It's that housing is far too expensive.

Fix that and this problem goes away and it benefits the private sector. It benefits the retail sector as people wind up having more disposable cash.

Arcade_Tryer

Technocentral wrote: »

Not sure what your solution is? You seem to shoot down every single suggestion.

In the context of higher rents for Dublin workers, a rent subsidy would be fair.

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry a couple buying a house have to find 20-30 % more to finance a house

it doesnt matter if it " washes " or not , its just simple" begrudgery"

Sorry yourself, but simply because you work in Dublin, does not mean you automatically deserve to own a house there. If you can't afford a house in Dublin then buy a house somewhere you can afford it. A rent subsidy is a much fairer solution than a salary increase solely for Dublin Civil Servants.

Technocentral

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

In the context of higher rents for Dublin workers, a rent subsidy would be fair.


Sorry yourself, but simply because you work in Dublin, does not mean you automatically deserve to own a house there. If you can't afford a house in Dublin then buy a house somewhere you can afford it. A rent subsidy is a much airer solution than a salary increase solely for Dublin Civil Servants.

Fair enough, then why did they not just do that in London?

BoatMad

Sorry yourself, but simply because you work in Dublin, does not mean you automatically deserve to own a house there. If you can't afford a house in Dublin then buy a house somewhere you can afford it. A rent subsidy is a much fairer solution than a salary increase solely for Dublin Civil Servants.

Yes but in the context of

(a) Thats where your job is
(b) There isnt an alternative outside Dublin

Then a person on 28K whose job is outside Dublin has a far better chance of buying a house then the very same person in Dublin

Hence a salary income supplement to try and level the playing field

The rent supplement argument is no different that a mortgage supplement , The answer is a general salary supplement to offset the higher costs of living there

its not complicated

Calina

Calina wrote: »

I think you are extremely judgmental.

The fact that there were 27K applicants for the CO open panel does not magically mean that the salary was a liveable salary. The cost of living in Dublin is not a function of how many people want to work as COs in Dublin and the subject of this thread is how anyone can live on a CO salary in Dublin.

The other point that you need to understand is this: the civil service attracts a lot of people who have previously worked in the private sector, up to quite attractive salaries in many cases but who for one reason or another - having children is one - have found themselves outside the work force - unemployment is another - and needing to find a way back to work. The civil service is in my experience one of the fairer ways of getting a job in terms of access to being hired - ie the process is transparent and fair. This is not my experience with much of the tech sector in Dublin to be frank.

No one is looking to live the life of Reilly on a civil service salary. But it'd be nice if you were a bit outside penury. Jesus Christ I could live on my own on a starter salary in Dublin when I came out of college first. YOu couldn't do it now, you can't do it on 21K a year, you can't do it on 28K and to be honest, i'm not sure how high you'd have to go to be able to do it. ANd that's before you feed yourself.

I dare say you could possibly exist in Limerick on 28KE a year but to be blunt about it, it wouldn't be much of a life.

I get that the people of Ireland are cheapskates and don't want to pay for effective public service. I really get it. The message is coming over loud and clear to me in this thread. But if you want cheap labour, expensive housing is not an option. You cannot pay your people lousy money, both private and public sector, and expect them to starve themselves to pay rent. Something is going to have to give.

But I strongly suspect the people complaining about civil servants wanting more money, and passing remarks about the easy work it is are exactly the kind of people who wouldn't want a housing crash because well they are worth it.

Once again, we would not be having this conversation if people could afford to live on their salaries. They can't. But increasing the salaries will not help, ad flutering around with tax allowances and special Dublin living allowances is nothing more than the sticking plaster nonsense that the banks engaged in to create "affordability" for mortgages in the mid2000s. It doesn't fix the problem because the problem isn't that people don't have enough money. It's that housing is far too expensive.

Fix that and this problem goes away and it benefits the private sector. It benefits the retail sector as people wind up having more disposable cash.

You're packing an awful lot in here, and while it's well argued i cant really pick out which parts of it are aimed at me, so forgive me for any redundancies and the short response to a long post, much of which i heartily agree with, but:

- I'm a civil servant
- but recently a CO
- I've in Dublin

I assure you I lived alright. In fact I paid college fees and went on holidays throughout.

It's of course not necessarily true that 27k applicants make a given wage liveable. But it's highly indicative, as is the fact that it's a good deal higher of a salary than what many live on in the city.

It doesn't make one heartless nor an enemy of a well supported and funded public sector to point out what is obvious.

If people want to throw out that one cannot own a home in location y or raise a family on x wage, i don't know what to say. These are not the aspirations i associate with entry level work. If you think that the solution to this is to eliminate entry level pay in the public sector then i cannot agree.

Property in Dublin is obviously the overarching topic here, supply is the only solution but pumping cash from the exchequer into rent subsidies is not.

noodler

I dunno where this ends.

Should retail assistants starting out be on the same money on graduates? Or nurses or solicitors?

Every single organisation has a sliding scale of grades.

Technocentral

Technocentral wrote: »

Not sure what your solution is? You seem to shoot down every single suggestion.

Solution, leave as is.
If the pay is that bad change jobs.

Many CO roles are €10/hour jobs in private sector.

noodler

The answer really is a CO job shouldn't be seen as a career in and of itself unless there's another income or you are ambitious enough to aim for promotion.

The_Conductor

Augeo wrote: »

Solution, leave as is.
If the pay is that bad change jobs.

Many CO roles are €10/hour jobs in private sector.

Guys- COs (and indeed all the way to EO and in some cases HEO) have salaries that are such- the recipients qualify for Family Income Support, medical cards and other benefits- that realistically, someone who is working, shouldn't have to rely on (note- this is predominantly those with family- as opposed to single people- who can make it work).

This is not just in the civil service- its also in the private sector.

Obviously- whats jumping off the page- is the fact that these people cannot live on their salary, not through effort of trying, simply, because its unaffordable.

Its not fair on reasonable to suggest that if you're a CO you should have a spouse or a significant other, to subsidise you- certainly, if you have a partner, you have joint finances- however, the prescription for COs or clerical staff in the private sector- to get themselves a partner who earns sufficiently to cross-subsidise them- is so deaf to the issue as to be laughable- yet, its what seems to be happening in a significant number of cases.

As to the issue with unaffordable housing- that is clearly a supply issue- the CSO stats released during the week serve to highlight this over and above pretty much any other point. Supply is driving scarscity. Most landlords- would in fact welcome additional supply in the market- contrary to popular belief- few of them are money grabbing narcists who are making hay while the sun shines- on the contrary- any of the intelligent ones who have made a reasonable effort to pay down debts- are crucified because the taxation system is rigged to reward debt- not to incentivise paying down debt.

I personally don't think there should a 'Dublin' allowance for staff (public or private sector)- as this is a sticking plaster that ignores the underlying causes- and as evidenced in the housing market- people would simply use their new found additional net income- to bid up accommodation and/or other goods and services. It also neglects the irrefutable fact that there are areas of Cork and Galway (and elsewhere)- which have the selfsame accommodation and other costs that people seem to imagine are 'Dublin' issues. Its not just Dublin- sure, its not a national issue- however, its not just Dublin either.

We're not going to solve the ills of society here in this thread- however, perhaps we've all learnt a little from one another- we may not accept each other's view points- however, perhaps we have a better idea of how or why the other person considers things in the way they do.

The ills of Irish society- and we have many- are not coralled into the civil service or the public sector- however, it suits many people to imagine they are- and to bash people over the head with their perceptions. Hell, it makes great stories- and sells newspapers.

jp101

The_Conductor wrote: »

Guys- COs (and indeed all the way to EO and in some cases HEO) have salaries that are such- the recipients qualify for Family Income Support, medical cards and other benefits- that realistically, someone who is working, shouldn't have to rely on (note- this is predominantly those with family- as opposed to single people- who can make it work).

This is not just in the civil service- its also in the private sector.

Obviously- whats jumping off the page- is the fact that these people cannot live on their salary, not through effort of trying, simply, because its unaffordable.

Its not fair on reasonable to suggest that if you're a CO you should have a spouse or a significant other, to subsidise you- certainly, if you have a partner, you have joint finances- however, the prescription for COs or clerical staff in the private sector- to get themselves a partner who earns sufficiently to cross-subsidise them- is so deaf to the issue as to be laughable- yet, its what seems to be happening in a significant number of cases.

As to the issue with unaffordable housing- that is clearly a supply issue- the CSO stats released during the week serve to highlight this over and above pretty much any other point. Supply is driving scarscity. Most landlords- would in fact welcome additional supply in the market- contrary to popular belief- few of them are money grabbing narcists who are making hay while the sun shines- on the contrary- any of the intelligent ones who have made a reasonable effort to pay down debts- are crucified because the taxation system is rigged to reward debt- not to incentivise paying down debt.

I personally don't think there should a 'Dublin' allowance for staff (public or private sector)- as this is a sticking plaster that ignores the underlying causes- and as evidenced in the housing market- people would simply use their new found additional net income- to bid up accommodation and/or other goods and services. It also neglects the irrefutable fact that there are areas of Cork and Galway (and elsewhere)- which have the selfsame accommodation and other costs that people seem to imagine are 'Dublin' issues. Its not just Dublin- sure, its not a national issue- however, its not just Dublin either.

We're not going to solve the ills of society here in this thread- however, perhaps we've all learnt a little from one another- we may not accept each other's view points- however, perhaps we have a better idea of how or why the other person considers things in the way they do.

The ills of Irish society- and we have many- are not coralled into the civil service or the public sector- however, it suits many people to imagine they are- and to bash people over the head with their perceptions. Hell, it makes great stories- and sells newspapers.

So are you suggesting that the minimum salary for all grades should be somewhere around the bottom of the HEO Level?

The_Conductor

jp101 wrote: »

So are you suggesting that the minimum salary for all grades should be somewhere around the bottom of the HEO Level?

Not at all- I am suggesting that there should be an astronomical ramp up of local authority housing schemes- which should be available to anyone who wants to rent one. The scheme for selling off local authority/ county council housing- should be consigned to history for once and for all- the properties should belong to local authorities in perpetuity.

I also don't get the rabid anti-ghettoisation plans- where local authorities insist on not having LA housing in blocks or estates- whatever 'ghetto' aspect they have an aversion to- would be moot if they were of a good size and reasonable quality- and anyone at all could rent them..........

The private sector is only ramping up production based on silly selling prices- local authorities do not have this constraint (they do have an issue with a lack of skilled workers to build and maintain the properties- however, that is a separate matter).

Central to all of this- has to be a thorough revision of our planning laws- starting with an edict from on high that high density housing/apartments in our cities should be the norm rather than the exception- and the limits on building heights in the Dublin local authority areas- should be the first to go.

People's pay is not the issue- its the fact that despite being on what would be considered to be reasonable pay in pretty much any other jurisdiction- people cannot afford to live, period.

Suggesting a HEO can afford a simple apartment in Dublin- therefore this should be a minimum income level for everyone- is completely blinkered, and doesn't solve anything.

For the record- we also have the second highest most expensive gas and electricity- and the highest cost of ownership of private transport in the EU 27- and the second highest childcare costs globally..........

We need to tackle costs- not pay everyone more because their pay isn't enough. We need regulators that actually have teeth and a broad remit to drive down costs for consumers- at the moment the various regulators seem to be used as a manner of protecting suppliers- whoever the suppliers may be- they sure as hell aren't looking out for customers/consumers.

This may mean a root and branch reconstruction- removing any functions from bodies who are tasked with both producers and consumers- leaving them to focus on one or the other.

The cost of living in Ireland is nuts- however, simply increasing everyone's pay to recognise that we can't afford to live here- is ignorant of the simple fact that you'll simply have suppliers jack up their prices in recognition of the extra money that would be sloshing around.

Accommodation- and the lack thereof- is the current topic of interest- and indeed has its own dedicated Minister (Simon Coveney) for the first time- however, its simply one plank in the equation- we need affordable childcare, utilities, a reasonable transport network and so many other things. We're currently suggesting that if we address the accommodation issue- that its a magical panancea that is going to solve all our problems- nope, it isn't- its one problem, albeit a big one, on a long long list of serious defects and deficiencies in the Irish economy.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Guys- COs (and indeed all the way to EO and in some cases HEO) have salaries that are such- the recipients qualify for Family Income Support, medical cards and other benefits- that realistically, someone who is working, shouldn't have to rely on (note- this is predominantly those with family- as opposed to single people- who can make it work).

This is not just in the civil service- its also in the private sector.

Obviously- whats jumping off the page- is the fact that these people cannot live on their salary, not through effort of trying, simply, because its unaffordable.

Its not fair on reasonable to suggest that if you're a CO you should have a spouse or a significant other, to subsidise you-...........

Same applies to van drivers, retail staff, those in the hospitality sector etc etc etc.
This thread is specifically for CO low pay, it's a bullsh1t topic IMO, the wages are the wages. If you want/need more than let the market decide what you are worth.

Real world says hello. If you can't afford a family don't start one. If you can't afford to live in Dublin on CO money than don't become one.

I can't afford to live in the Maldives so I don't.

I can pay a mortgage and manage away on less than €2.5k/month net and I work in Dublin, live in Kildare. If I wanted to live in Dublin I'd have to spend more.

As countless people have said the entry level CO salary is just that, an entry level on a scale.

You don't see white van drivers starts a topic saying that €12/hour is sh1t money and they can't manage on it, as they move to other job, progress their career rather than see it as a job for life.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Not at all- I am suggesting that there should be an astronomical ramp up of local authority housing schemes- which should be available to anyone who wants to rent one. The scheme for selling off local authority/ county council housing- should be consigned to history for once and for all- the properties should belong to local authorities in perpetuity...........

Top class, essentially you are saying leave CO salaries as is, what I said, truth be told.

bobbysands81

Augeo wrote: »

You don't see white van drivers starts a topic saying that €12/hour is sh1t money and they can't manage on it, as they move to other job, progress their career rather than see it as a job for life.

Most people want to improve their lot, low paid public servants are the same... except that the feeling out there is that public servants are financially on the pig's back when the reality is completely different.

White van man moans about his wages just like everyone else in real life does.

Technocentral

Augeo wrote:

I can't afford to live in the Maldives so I don't.

Nonsense talk unless you are from there, you think people shouldnt be able to afford to live in the country they are from?????

doc22

The_Conductor wrote: »

Guys- COs (and indeed all the way to EO and in some cases HEO) have salaries that are such- the recipients qualify for Family Income Support, medical cards and other benefits- that realistically, someone who is working, shouldn't have to rely on (note- this is predominantly those with family- as opposed to single people- who can make it work).
.

FIS is extremely generous meaning a civil servant with 3 children would need to get close to 50k not to qualify thats not including child benefit etc. Single people at low levels receive no such top ups.

Calina

To be honest, I think a family on 50K would have it extremely tight in Dublin. I assume that is a gross figure, right?

bobbysands81

doc22 wrote: »

FIS is extremely generous meaning a civil servant with 3 children would need to get close to 50k not to qualify thats not including child benefit etc. Single people at low levels receive no such top ups.

Try 37,000 euro.

FIS is for all, not just Civil Servants.

doc22

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Try 37,000 euro.

FIS is for all, not just Civil Servants.

Done the calculations around 60,000 gross as a public servant with 3 children you'd near qualify for FIS It's 37000 after tax, pension etc not gross

Technocentral

Hopefully DIS is on the way.

snowflaker

doc22 wrote: »

FIS is extremely generous meaning a civil servant with 3 children would need to get close to 50k not to qualify thats not including child benefit etc. Single people at low levels receive no such top ups.

Why would they? They (we) have significantly less costs.

The state helps raise its children

doc22

Technocentral wrote: »

Hopefully DIS is on the way.

Disability income supplement? If you're working full time earning a decent wage what income support would one need over a non Disabled person? What extra cost does one have?

The_Conductor

doc22 wrote: »

Disability income supplement? If you're working full time earning a decent wage what income support would one need over a non Disabled person? What extra cost does one have?

Medical bills, consultant visits, gp visits, 144 a month DPS (if your disability isn't on the LTI list) etc etc?

doc22

The_Conductor wrote: »

Medical bills, consultant visits, gp visits, 144 a month DPS (if your disability isn't on the LTI list) etc etc?

Consultants vists etc are free under the public health system, and if your low paid you'll get a medical card or GP card. Expenses are tax deductible. There's already a WSS to help the disabled back to work and covers part of the wages. Disability allowance and invalidity pensions also allow a person to work and keep some of there benefits. You could reduce limits on DPS, expand LTI scheme and increase thresholds on medical cards before starting a new scheme.