JFK Files

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:05AM

Evidence put before the Warren Commission could not positively establish if the bullet was found on Kennedy’s stretcher or Connally’s and the bullet’s chain of custody was not clearly recorded.

So this is a huge problem when you don't know exactly where the bullet came from!

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:09AM

As well as that Cheerfull your trying to both argue that the bullet in the hospital wasn't fired at Deely Plaza and that it was and contradicts the wounds (it doesn't). You can't have it both ways. Anyway the straight forward narrative holds up and is consistent. The bullet travelled into the hospital in Connolly's leg. The full metal jacket bullet is substantially intact as it is supposed to be. The angle from Oswald's rifle to JFK and the disposition of JFK and Connolly in the car matches with the expected wounds. Taking account of the bullet spinning and losing kinetic energy as it proceeds.

Loath as I am to reach for the cliched Occam's Razor - why look for a convoluted conspiracy when the plain facts add up and hold up.

Charmeleon · 27-10-2017 12:14AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Evidence put before the Warren Commission could not positively establish if the bullet was found on Kennedy’s stretcher or Connally’s and the bullet’s chain of custody was not clearly recorded.

So this is a huge problem when you don't know exactly where the bullet came from!

Where are you reading that? The Warren Commission had a clear record in front of them of who had possession of the bullet from discovery to admission into evidence. Conspiracy theorists insist each officer passing the bullet on had to mark their intials on it to ‘preserve the chain of custody’ but this is not the case. The people in the chain are called to give testimony if the defense disputes the chain of evidence, they don’t have to have initialed it for the evidence to be admissible.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:15AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The bullets are the same. A stranger could use the same make gun and bullets and the ballistic expert not could tell the difference.

That's not how ballistics work. Every gun barrel has its unique marks and quirks in rifling - that leave marks and striations on the bullet. A bullet can be linked to the gun that fired it.

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:17AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The bullets are the same. A stranger could use the same make gun and bullets and the ballistic expert not could tell the difference.

I hope you are not saying that separate bullets fired from two models of the same gun would have identical marks?

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:18AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

As well as that Cheerfull your trying to both argue that the bullet in the hospital wasn't fired at Deely Plaza and that it was and contradicts the wounds (it doesn't). You can't have it both ways. Anyway the straight forward narrative holds up and is consistent. The bullet travelled into the hospital in Connolly's leg. The full metal jacket bullet is substantially intact as it is supposed to be. The angle from Oswald's rifle to JFK and the disposition of JFK and Connolly in the car matches with the expected wounds. Taking account of the bullet spinning and losing kinetic energy as it proceeds.

Loath as I am to reach for the cliched Occam's Razor - why look for a convoluted conspiracy when the plain facts add up and hold up.

Why is the CIA and FBI holding up the release of thousands of JFK documents, if the case is closed? If Oswald was all alone, a lunatic and had no help planning this assassination. There should be no reason to be waving the flag of national security.

Charmeleon · 27-10-2017 12:20AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Why is the CIA and FBI holding up the release of thousands of JFK documents, if they case closed Oswald was alone, lunatic and had no help?

Because they investigated many secret service agents and heard testimony from the intelligence agencies. What they had to say could identify and compromise the safety of informers or their relatives or give away secret intelligence gathering techniques.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:22AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Evidence put before the Warren Commission could not positively establish if the bullet was found on Kennedy’s stretcher or Connally’s and the bullet’s chain of custody was not clearly recorded.

So this is a huge problem when you don't know exactly where the bullet came from!

There's a difference between a sloppy chain of evidence and not knowing where the bullet came from.

Tomlinson an engineer working at the hospital found the bullet when it fell from a stretcher he was moving. He gave testimony to this fact. There is nothing to disprove it.

In today's world it would be photographed in situ where it was first discovered. Then bagged and locked securely away until examination.
The handling of the evidence - bullet was not text book. However the fact that when ultimately examined it was found to have been a bullet that was fired from the rifle in Depository, Oswald's let's us know that while it may not have been written up perfectly the bullet nevertheless made it from the hospital to the ballistic examiners lab and was properly identified.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:23AM

Esel wrote: »

I hope you are not saying that separate bullets fired from two models of the same gun would have identical marks?

I don't believe the Warren Commission or agree with their experts. The bullet had no chain of custody.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:26AM

Charmeleon wrote: »

Because they investigated many secret service agents and heard testimony from the intelligence agencies. What they had to say could identify and compromise the safety of informers or their relatives or give away secret intelligence gathering techniques.

Please stop. You don't need to hold back documents to blacken out names and addresses. This likely was done years ago.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:29AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Why is the CIA and FBI holding up the release of thousands of JFK documents, if the case is closed? If Oswald was all alone, a lunatic and had no help planning this assassination. There should be no reason to be waving the flag of national security.

If the hypothetical CIA cabaal, agency within an agency, had really assassinated JFK, do you honestly think that clues or evidence to that effect is sitting in official files in government archives in Washington. That if they just released these papers that we would suddenly have the real story.

Whatever happened and whatever is known is long since out there at this stage. As someone said earlier most of the protagonists are dead now.

If it was a cover up then it was a successful one. You aren't going to learn anymore now.

The conspiracy angle doesn't ring through though. Too many people. No one spills the beans. They set up a messy gun show in a public street.
No. Too complicated, too many moving parts. It would have been done neatly, quietly and very tidily. With not a lose end to question.

pitifulgod · 27-10-2017 12:32AM

Charmeleon wrote: »

Because they investigated many secret service agents and heard testimony from the intelligence agencies. What they had to say could identify and compromise the safety of informers or their relatives or give away secret intelligence gathering techniques.

Another non conspiratorial aspect is that it likely reflects negatively upon intelligence agencies in terms of what they did know about Oswald etc prior to assassination. Failure to recognise warning signs etc.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:32AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

That's not how ballistics work. Every gun barrel has its unique marks and quirks in rifling - that leave marks and striations on the bullet. A bullet can be linked to the gun that fired it.

6.5×52mm Carcano Model 91/38 infantry rifle all use the same parts and same bullets. Have you evidence different batches of the same manufactured bullets made by the same company leave different traces?

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:33AM

Esel wrote: »

I hope you are not saying that separate bullets fired from two models of the same gun would have identical marks?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't believe the Warren Commission or agree with their experts. The bullet had no chain of custody.

Not an answer.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:35AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I don't believe the Warren Commission or agree with their experts. The bullet had no chain of custody.

If you're saying the bullet was a plant. Are you accepting nevertheless
that this planted bullet was a bullet fired from Oswald's Carcano rifle?
Or do you not accept the ballistic evidence concerning this.
If you do accept the ballistic evidence then how did FBI end up with a bullet fired from Oswald's gun? And why would Tomlinson give false evidence to numerous agency's and to the Commission that he found the bullet in the hospital.

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:36AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

6.5×52mm Carcano Model 91/38 infantry rifle all use the same parts and same bullets. Have you evidence different batches of the same manufactured bullets made by the same company leave different traces?

The bullets don't 'leave traces'. The weapon does, and every weapon leaves different 'traces'.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:38AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

6.5×52mm Carcano Model 91/38 infantry rifle all use the same parts and same bullets. Have you evidence different batches of the same manufactured bullets made by the same company leave different traces?

The ammunition is all the same.
Every gun's barrel leaves different markings on the bullets.
As individual as fingerprints.
The bullet Tomlinson found in the Hospital was fired from Oswald's rifle. That was the result of the ballistic examination of the rifle and the bullet. That evidence was given to the commission.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:39AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

If the hypothetical CIA cabaal, agency within an agency, had really assassinated JFK, do you honestly think that clues or evidence to that effect is sitting in official files in government archives in Washington. That if they just released these papers that we would suddenly have the real story.

Whatever happened and whatever is known is long since out there at this stage. As someone said earlier most of the protagonists are dead now.

If it was a cover up then it was a successful one. You aren't going to learn anymore now.

The conspiracy angle doesn't ring through though. Too many people. No one spills the beans. They set up a messy gun show in a public street.
No. Too complicated, too many moving parts. It would have been done neatly, quietly and very tidily. With not a lose end to question.

Oswald was hanging out with Cuban exile groups who were planning and staging and getting ready to take out Castro. The CIA funded those groups. Oswald either way was involved with the CIA- secret war against Castro.

Oswald is hanging out with dangerous people i don't believe he was alone in the planning. I actually do believe Oswald was involved in the plot, but not sure what level he was at. Was he used as a decoy by someone else who carried out the shooting? Was he the only shooter? Had he accomplices?

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:42AM

Esel wrote: »

Not an answer.

Still no answer. Not surprised.

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:46AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Oswald was hanging out with Cuban exile groups who were planning and staging and getting ready to take out Castro. The CIA funded those groups. Oswald either way was involved with the CIA- secret war against Castro.

Oswald is hanging out with dangerous people i don't believe he was alone in the planning. I actually do believe Oswald was involved in the plot, but not sure what level he was at. Was he used as a decoy by someone else who carried out the shooting? Was he the only shooter? Had he accomplices?

There's no reason to guess/invent another shooter or assistance. Oswald was there. He had a gun. He was a good enough shot. He fired three shots. He killed the president. Where does anyone else come into events at Deely Plaza. Nowhere. Did the Kennedys have enemies? Yes. Were there people who might benefit from his death? Possibly. Is there any evidence of a wider plot during these events. No. Definitely not.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:46AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

The ammunition is all the same.
Every gun's barrel leaves different markings on the bullets.
As individual as fingerprints.
The bullet Tomlinson found in the Hospital was fired from Oswald's rifle. That was the result of the ballistic examination of the rifle and the bullet. That evidence was given to the commission.

This is not easy as it sounds if the gun was manufactured by the same company. They use this method to trace different guns to different manufacturing companies.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:47AM

Esel wrote: »

Still no answer. Not surprised.

I responding to numerous posts sorry i hurt your feelings.

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:48AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is not easy as it sounds if the gun was manufactured by the same company. They use this method to trace different guns to different manufacturing companies.

You have no credibility at this stage.

Esel · 27-10-2017 12:49AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

I responding to numerous posts sorry i hurt your feelings.

Respond to mine then.

Charmeleon · 27-10-2017 12:49AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Oswald was hanging out with Cuban exile groups who were planning and staging and getting ready to take out Castro. The CIA funded those groups. Oswald either way was involved with the CIA- secret war against Castro.

Oswald is hanging out with dangerous people i don't believe he was alone in the planning. I actually do believe Oswald was involved in the plot, but not sure what level he was at. Was he used as a decoy by someone else who carried out the shooting? Was he the only shooter? Had he accomplices?

Is all that from Oliver Stone’s movie, which he admits most of which was just made up?

Oswald was an admirer of Castro and there’s not a shred of evidence he was hanging around with any anti-Castro groups. His wife admitted he chose the fake name Hidel to order his guns because it sounded like Fidel. How fecking sad is that. His landlady said he only ever got phone calls from his wife.
He was a loner, the single member of the Pro-Castro ‘Fair Play for Cuba’ group. He tried to kill himself when he was refused by the Soviets and then tried to persuade his pregnant wife to hijack a plane to go to Cuba after the Cuban embassy laughed at him.

What kind of conspiracy was he part of when the only person you can turn to to hijack a plane is heavily pregnant with your child? Who uses a dirt cheap second hand rifle for the most significant assassination in modern US history?

Are Am Eye · 27-10-2017 12:50AM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

This is not easy as it sounds if the gun was manufactured by the same company. They use this method to trace different guns to different manufacturing companies.

You're now denying Ballistic Science

Past my bedtime now. I'll leave you to it.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:51AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

There's no reason to guess/invent another shooter or assistance. Oswald was there. He had a gun. He was a good enough shot. He fired three shots. He killed the president. Where does anyone else come into events at Deely Plaza. Nowhere. Did the Kennedys have enemies? Yes. Were there people who might benefit from his death? Possibly. Is there any evidence of a wider plot during these events. No. Definitely not.

This is complete nonsense. How do you know he did not tell anyone he was going to kill Kennedy or he was a small part of a wider plot to remove Kennedy? Oswald is not a lonely guy stuck in a room somewhere twiddling his thumbs and dreaming of killing a President. His hanging out with people who likely hate Kennedy also and want him killed.

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 12:53AM

Are Am Eye wrote: »

You're now denying Ballistic Science

Past my bedtime now. I'll leave you to it.

You googled firearm ballistic and think you're expert now. Have you ever heard of cases people got wrongly convicted because the firearm expert traced a firearm to this person?

Cheerful Spring · 27-10-2017 01:11AM

Charmeleon wrote: »

Is all that from Oliver Stone’s movie, which he admits most of which was just made up?

Oswald was an admirer of Castro and there’s not a shred of evidence he was hanging around with any anti-Castro groups. His wife admitted he chose the fake name Hidel to order his guns because it sounded like Fidel. How fecking sad is that. His landlady said he only ever got phone calls from his wife.
He was a loner, the single member of the Pro-Castro ‘Fair Play for Cuba’ group. He tried to kill himself when he was refused by the Soviets and then tried to persuade his pregnant wife to hijack a plane to go to Cuba after the Cuban embassy laughed at him.

What kind of conspiracy was he part of when the only person you can turn to to hijack a plane is heavily pregnant with your child? Who uses a dirt cheap second hand rifle for the most significant assassination in modern US history?

Actually this would be an ideal place to hang out and get prepared to carry out a murder. Cuban exiles groups would be interested in helping Oswald kill Kennedy, they felt the same way! Remember Kennedy pulled support for the Bay of Pigs operation and lot of Cuban exiles died during this operation.

My feeling about Oswald is he was a playing a double game, a double agent maybe working for a government agency? Or he was just a lunatic, who hung around with dangerous Cubans, they together planned it, and they got away and Oswald got caught. Or Oswald planned it all by himself and he was just a madman?

Kermit.de.frog · 27-10-2017 01:14AM

It was Ted Cruz' dad.

JFK Files

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