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Footballer of the Year

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    #362
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,272 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Had Dublin lost Cluxton would be taking a lot of the blame on the day. He was awful in the first half and Mayo should have been a lot further ahead. That they were not had nothing to do with Cluxton.

    Is his nomination a mockery too?

    Cluxton made 19/25 on his kickouts on the day. I have yet to see the stats for Clarke, but I don't need to, he kicked away the All-Ireland with his last two kicks.


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    #363
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    I guess it is a testimony to how good Cluxton is when people say he had a terrible first half because some of his kick outs where contested 50/50


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    #364
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    No, Keegan last year was the heart ruling the head, nobody thought Mayo would come back from that defeat and there was an awful lot of sympathy for him and them. With Moran likely to retire, that sympathy will continue.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see the POTY go regularly to one of the gallant losers over the next few years if Moran gets it this year as it becomes seen as a consolation prize for missing out on an All-Ireland medal.

    Well history tells us that a player from a losing team very rarely wins it, so the evidence suggests that you are wrong, again.


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    #365
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,272 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    kilns wrote: »
    I guess it is a testimony to how good Cluxton is when people say he had a terrible first half because some of his kick outs where contested 50/50

    Any other goalkeeper going in at half-time 8/14 would be absolutely delighted.


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    #366
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,213 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Cluxton made 19/25 on his kickouts on the day. I have yet to see the stats for Clarke, but I don't need to, he kicked away the All-Ireland with his last two kicks.

    I don't have a bitchy problem with another player getting a nomination, Cluxton deserves his over the year (it is Player of the YEAR after all) but your reasoning is suspect here.

    Cluxton had one good half. If Mayo had taken full advantage in the first half, he would be taking a lot of the blame.
    If you are gonna criticise a player for one missed kick, please be consistent like a good lad?
    But it was the decisions to put James McCarthy back on Aidan O’Shea, and Stephen Cluxton’s half-time kickout alterations that proved decisive.
    In the first half Mayo won six of Dublin’s 14 kickouts. Cluxton kicked eight long, beyond his own 45 metre line, with Dublin winning only two of them. Three of Mayo’s six wins were marks, as they were the more comfortable under the high ball. In fact, Mayo kicked 45 per cent of their own kickouts long (winning 70 per cent of them) which highlighted their preference.


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    #367
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    I guess it is a testimony to how good Cluxton is when people say he had a terrible first half because some of his kick outs where contested 50/50

    Id agree with that to a degree. It shows how good his kickouts have been. Although many were straight to mayo men (plural) rather than 50-50, plus he kept doing it until he had to be ordered to stop. Id imagine it is a game he would rather forget.


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    #368
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    MayoAreMagic wrote:
    It is nonsense actually. The thing is voted on by the players, for the players. They don't vote on a per county basis, they vote for the player

    I'm sorry but you don't know how they vote you don't speak for them. You are making an assumption. We are just offering opinions here.

    It's very possible that some will vote for the player or a county.
    They might vote for a friend or against an enemy regardless of how they played that year. That's human nature.


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    #369
    squrm
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭squrm


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Id agree with that to a degree. It shows how good his kickouts have been. Although many were straight to mayo men (plural) rather than 50-50, plus he kept doing it until he had to be ordered to stop. Id imagine it is a game he would rather forget.

    Ehh...... you think?!


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    #370
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Stoner wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you don't know how they vote you don't speak for them. You are making an assumption. We are just offering opinions here.

    It's very possible that some will vote for the player or a county.
    They might vote for a friend or against an enemy regardless of how they played that year. That's human nature.

    Im not making assumptions at all. I explained fully the concept of split voting and when it is and isn't applicable.
    You are now talking about voting for a friend, yet James McCarthy can have as many friends as anyone else, so that also isn't applicable as it balances out. The only way it could be split voting is if it were only Mayo and Dublin players voting - it isn't.

    Face it man, split voting does not apply in the POTY award


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    #371
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Im not making assumptions at all. I explained fully the concept of split voting and when it is and isn't applicable.
    You are now talking about voting for a friend, yet James McCarthy can have as many friends as anyone else, so that also isn't applicable.

    You are not a player with a vote. Therefore you know sweet fcuk all about how the voting is going to go, or what is or is not appplicable and when. None of us do. The only people that know, are the players themselves, so less of the patronizing lectures.


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    #372
    Crash Bang Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 1,362 ✭✭✭Crash Bang Wall


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Yes, stats can be manipulated.

    Look at Clarke, no matter how good his kickout stats were on Sunday, the last two were the losing of the game.

    I dont think I, or anyone else, mentioned Clarke should be in the running for POTY. However, you and others reckon Cluxton is. Im giving you the cons to go with the Pros re Cluxton.

    This bullcr@p re Moran getting a sympathy vote for POTY. He was the most inflential Mayo player all year. Up to Sunday, all the talk was about Kilkenny and O Callaghan, until Keegan stuck handpass in his pocket, now its McCarthy and Cluxton!! Moran has been standout all year for Mayo


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    #373
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    ProudDUB wrote: »
    You are not a player with a vote. Therefore you know sweet fcuk all about how the voting is going to go, or what is or is not appplicable and when. None of us do. The only people that know, are the players themselves, so less of the patronizing lectures.

    You don't need to be a player with a vote to understand split voting and know when it is applicable or not. It doesn't apply in this instance like it did in say the Kerry elections where the Healy-Raes actively avoided the effects of it by telling people in one place to vote for one brother and the other place to vote for the other. I suppose those were patronising lectures too :cool:
    If you cant understand how the parameters are different well that is your problem.

    If we take your attitude then none of us are intercounty gaa players so we better close the forum :rolleyes:

    Split voting doesn't apply, and now you realise it, so maybe less of the feigned indignation bs.


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    #374
    corny
    Registered Users Posts: 7,763 ✭✭✭corny


    CurryFlavoured wrote: »
    Surprised Con O'Callaghan hasn't got more attention. I think because he's going to win ypoty they've left him out. MOTM vs Kildare, magic performance against Tyrone, great goal again Mayo and although he didn't score afterwards he retained back really well and was still one of our best forwards. He's probably scored the two best goals of the season, in the SF and F all Ireland games. If he was 25 years old I feel like he'd have at least been nominated for poty.

    I've always been a big McCarthy fan but have to say I was a little surprised when his name was so actively mentioned. The more I think about it the more I realise he's been very good I suppose. Wouldn't begrudge him or Moran

    Its like that every year the All Stars are chosen on one or two moments that stick in peoples minds. McCarthy got it because he scored twice. In previous years his tremendous work around the field was ignored because he didn't get on the scoresheet.

    In short the judging of these things are a nonsense.


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    #375
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Crash Bang Wall wrote: »
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Yes, stats can be manipulated.

    Look at Clarke, no matter how good his kickout stats were on Sunday, the last two were the losing of the game.

    I dont think I, or anyone else, mentioned Clarke should be in the running for POTY. However, you and others reckon Cluxton is. Im giving you the cons to go with the Pros re Cluxton.

    This bullcr@p re Moran getting a sympathy vote for POTY. He was the most inflential Mayo player all year. Up to Sunday, all the talk was about Kilkenny and O Callaghan, until Keegan stuck handpass in his pocket, now its McCarthy and Cluxton!! Moran has been standout all year for Mayo
    Its a good debate, Mayo fans are rightly saying Moran has had a great year and he has but has he been destroying teams in his wake which makes him the only contender for the POTY aware, no he hasnt.  The point some have been making here is that same Dublin players have been playing to as high a standard but it has been masked somewhat as others around them too have been playing at that level, unlike with Mayo for most of the season. 
    So its an open debate really and going by the nominations its a two horse race between Moran and McCarthy and if its a tight call its human nature to side with the guy who has had heartbreak this year.  Thats why I think Moran will win it


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    #376
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    Its a good debate, Mayo fans are rightly saying Moran has had a great year and he has but has he been destroying teams in his wake which makes him the only contender for the POTY aware, no he hasnt.  The point some have been making here is that same Dublin players have been playing to as high a standard but it has been masked somewhat as others around them too have been playing at that level, unlike with Mayo for most of the season. 
    So its an open debate really and going by the nominations its a two horse race between Moran and McCarthy and if its a tight call its human nature to side with the guy who has had heartbreak this year.  Thats why I think Moran will win it

    History tells us that players dont vote for heartbreak.
    However, in this instance it is handy that the guy with the heartbreak is also the front runner based on his performances.


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    #377
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    kilns wrote: »
    Its a good debate, Mayo fans are rightly saying Moran has had a great year and he has but has he been destroying teams in his wake which makes him the only contender for the POTY aware, no he hasnt.  The point some have been making here is that same Dublin players have been playing to as high a standard but it has been masked somewhat as others around them too have been playing at that level, unlike with Mayo for most of the season. 
    So its an open debate really and going by the nominations its a two horse race between Moran and McCarthy and if its a tight call its human nature to side with the guy who has had heartbreak this year.  Thats why I think Moran will win it

    History tells us that players dont vote for heartbreak.
    However, in this instance it is handy that the guy with the heartbreak is also the front runner based on his performances.
    Would you just give it over now
    I outlined the point why he wasnt the clear frontrunner and my thoughts on why he will win the award


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    #378
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    MayoAreMagic wrote:
    If we take your attitude then none of us are intercounty gaa players so we better close the forum

    The very simple point is that you don't speak for or represent any of the players .
    They will vote not you, they will have their view on it and they won't all look at it the same way. They certainly all won't look at the way you do.

    Again this is a discussion forum as I explained already.

    Thankfully the only mind that you can control or represent is your own.

    I'm sure you'll keep this going and try to bring it into another area to save face, but the reality is that you have no idea how others think.


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    #379
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    Would you just give it over now
    I outlined the point why he wasnt the clear frontrunner and my thoughts on why he will win the award

    You are entitled to your opinion on the topic. Im entitled to point out where it isnt accurate.
    I see paddy power have him favourite too. Maybe you should send them a strongly worded letter?

    stoner wrote: »
    The very simple point is that you don't speak for or represent any of the players .
    They will vote not you, they will have their view on it and they won't all look at it the same way. They certainly all won't look at the way you do.
    Again this is a discussion forum as I explained already.
    Thankfully the only mind that you can control or represent is your own.
    I'm sure you'll keep this going and try to bring it into another area to save face, but the reality is that you have no idea how others think.

    I suppose I could use your old routine and say it is only your opinion that I don't represent any of the players...

    All the things you have underlined do not bias the vote in any way. Andy Moran could have 2 mates in donegal, but then cluxton could have 3. One guy could look at it one way, but then another could look a different way. Those things balance out and therefore do not bias the vote.

    However, the point being debated is split voting creating an imbalance for or against someone in particular. There is 100% no evidence to support that this exists and all logic suggests that it in fact does not. Case closed.


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    #380
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    I think what might tell in Moran's favour is that Mayo gave value for money from day 1 in the championship and played in a number of entertaining and enthralling games. Most Dublin games were boring and over by half time. They were no contests. Its hard to remember performances in a boring game.
    That said Moran more than deserves the award from a footballing point of view. I don't think the others came close over the course of the championship.
    Also, I'd have included Dean Rock in the nominations ahead of Cluxton.


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    #381
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    kilns wrote: »
    Would you just give it over now
    I outlined the point why he wasnt the clear frontrunner and my thoughts on why he will win the award

    You are entitled to your opinion on the topic. Im entitled to point out where it isnt accurate.
    I see paddy power have him favourite too. Maybe you shpuld send thwm a strongly worded letter?
    Its inaccurate in your own little world, You fail to highlight why he is so far ahead than the others.
    If you knew anything about bookmakers operate you would know that they go where the money goes and its obvious there will be a groundswell of good will for Andy Moran to win it and Mayo fans will bet on it. But you probably know how they think too, your the expert.  You should be the next Mayo manager and team pyscologist with all that expert knowledge you possess


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    #382
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    Its inaccurate in your own little world, You fail to highlight why he is so far ahead than the others.
    If you knew anything about bookmakers operate you would know that they go where the money goes and its obvious there will be a groundswell of good will for Andy Moran to win it and Mayo fans will bet on it. But you probably know how they think too, your the expert. You should be the next Mayo manager and team pyscologist with all that expert knowledge you possess

    They made him favourite after the final. The odds were set with him as favourite. Money didn't affect it.
    As for good will, well there is 10 times the number of people in Dublin as in mayo, surely if the money was going anywhere it was going on McCarthy...

    Personally, I don't buy into that. Moran was made favourite because he has put in more big performances than McCarthy. That is the long and short of it. Your assertion that players are going to vote for him for reasons other than football is just insulting to the players. They have more expertise than you do.


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    #383
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I think what might tell in Moran's favour is that Mayo gave value for money from day 1 in the championship and played in a number of entertaining and enthralling games. Most Dublin games were boring and over by half time. They were no contests. Its hard to remember performances in a boring game.
    That said Moran more than deserves the award from a footballing point of view. I don't think the others came close over the course of the championship.
    Also, I'd have included Dean Rock in the nominations ahead of Cluxton.

    Agreed. There are numerous players who had better seasons than Cluxton. McCaffrey, O'Callaghan, Mannion for Dublin alone


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    #384
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,272 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Crash Bang Wall wrote: »
    I dont think I, or anyone else, mentioned Clarke should be in the running for POTY. However, you and others reckon Cluxton is. Im giving you the cons to go with the Pros re Cluxton.

    This bullcr@p re Moran getting a sympathy vote for POTY. He was the most inflential Mayo player all year. Up to Sunday, all the talk was about Kilkenny and O Callaghan, until Keegan stuck handpass in his pocket, now its McCarthy and Cluxton!! Moran has been standout all year for Mayo


    Clarke is one of the four nominees for POTY, so how is he not in the running?

    Someone else posted earlier and seemed to be suggesting that Mayo winning 70% of their own kick-outs in the first half was a good thing. Dublin won 76% of Cluxton's kick-outs throughout the game, but that seems to be a bad result?

    Very curious.


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    #385
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Clarke is one of the four nominees for POTY, so how is he not in the running?

    Someone else posted earlier and seemed to be suggesting that Mayo winning 70% of their own kick-outs in the first half was a good thing. Dublin won 76% of Cluxton's kick-outs throughout the game, but that seems to be a bad result?

    Very curious.

    Id say it is because Clarke made more big saves in his triple save against Kerry, than cluxton did all year...
    6% of a difference in kickouts over one game doesn't really feature in respect to that...


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    #386
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    Split voting is very likely to affects an election, when two people from the same county, political party or Best Actors nominees at Oscar time, get nominated in pairs, where there is only one other single nominee from the other team, party, film. It's only commons sense to realise that. The only people who know for sure the degree of it, are the voters themselves. Having an opinion on a match is one thing. Any keyboard warrior can have one of those. Noones opinion is of more value than anyone elses. Having vote in a silent ballot is something else entirely.

    If the geniuses in charges of this years voting decided to come up with 4 nominees, then this year, there may be less chance of it. But it doesn't change the fact that in previous years, it may have been a factor, despite the hysterical outrage when Lee Keegans winning it last year comes up.

    The 2 Waterford lads nominated for this years Hurler of The Year, will probably split the Waterford vote, leaving the door wide open for Joe Canning to win it. Will he win it? Possibly. Will he deserve it? Possibly. Will he get it due to the sympathy factor of carrying Galway by himself for so long? Possibly. Will he get some votes purely for the point he hit at the end of the Tipp semi? Possibly? Will he get some votes for how he has carried himself in the aftermath of the win, especially with the Keadys? Possibly. Will he get zero votes from some Tipp lads, as they will never vote for anyone from Galway on point of principle? Possibly. Will some voters be affected by Joe Cannings media profile over the past 10 years? Did Gearoid McInerney's relatively low profile (by comparison) affect his chances of being nominated? Possibly. Are there other factors affecting the voting, that I know sweet eff all about? Very possibly. I just don't know. Noone here does. The only thing that we do know is that in elections, it is very possible that other factors may be at play when it comes to the voting, than who is the most deserving winner.

    I'm already on record as saying that AM would be a very deserving winner. I'm pretty sure I said the same thing last year about Lee Keegan. But anyone who thinks that no other factors are ever at play in these things, is just sticking their head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge reality, or human nature.


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    #387
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,272 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Id say it is because Clarke made more big saves in his triple save against Kerry, than cluxton did all year...
    6% of a difference in kickouts over one game doesn't really feature in respect to that...

    But we've been repeatedly told that Cluxton had a disaster in terms of kick-outs on All-Ireland day...so where does that leave Clarke.

    As for big saves and goalkeeping, only 6 goals conceded in 14 League and Championship games tells its own story.


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    #388
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    kilns wrote: »
    Its inaccurate in your own little world, You fail to highlight why he is so far ahead than the others.
    If you knew anything about bookmakers operate you would know that they go where the money goes and its obvious there will be a groundswell of good will for Andy Moran to win it and Mayo fans will bet on it. But you probably know how they think too, your the expert.  You should be the next Mayo manager and team pyscologist with all that expert knowledge you possess

    They made him favourite after the final. The odds were set with him as favourite. Money didn't affect it.
    As for good will, well there is 10 times the number of people in Dublin as in mayo, surely if the money was going anywhere it was going on McCarthy...

    Personally, I don't buy into that. Moran was made favourite because he has put in more big performances than McCarthy. That is the long and short of it. Your assertion that players are going to vote for him for reasons other than football is just insulting to the players. They have more expertise than you do.
    I dont why I keep answering to idiots like you but I will.
    Bookmakers couldnt give two craps who was the best player of the year.  They have experts who assess certain markets and determine betting trends, who will bet and then they follow the money.  Its the reason why Conor McGregor was stupidly short odds in a fight he was never going to win, because people were willing to put money on him or its why England are one of the English bookies favourites to win a football World Cup everytime, because that who bets on it
    What were Morans big performances, semi final against Kerry?  What was McCarthys big performance? Final against Mayo.  Thats why it is not clear cut.  But knowing you, you probably would give Moran a 9 rating for the final and McCarthy a 7


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    #389
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,213 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    But we've been repeatedly told that Cluxton had a disaster in terms of kick-outs on All-Ireland day...so where does that leave Clarke.

    As for big saves and goalkeeping, only 6 goals conceded in 14 League and Championship games tells its own story.

    You have a problem with a player winning for his performance over the YEAR based on one kick. :rolleyes:

    I don't have a problem with any player nominated winning this. But if one kick rules you out should a bad half not also rule one out?

    You are hoist on your own bull**** logic here blanch I'm afraid.


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    #390
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    FFS!
    There are two nominated from Mayo and two nominated from Dublin.
    So why should split voting impact Dublin but not Mayo?
    This is getting ridiculous.

    At the end of the day, people will vote for who they think is the best footballer.


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    #391
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    But we've been repeatedly told that Cluxton had a disaster in terms of kick-outs on All-Ireland day...so where does that leave Clarke.

    As for big saves and goalkeeping, only 6 goals conceded in 14 League and Championship games tells its own story.

    Because looking at the figures in isolation of what occurred in the game is misleading - purposely in this case. Being told to go short because your long ones are a liability is like a free taker being told not to shoot at the posts and then trying to say that he never put any wide.

    What big saves did he make? I can think of a penalty save and the Doherty one. List the rest out there.


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