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Footballer of the Year

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    #272
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    kilns wrote: »
    Fiar enough thats your opinion. But I will question your logic about McCarthy and big interventions interventions compared to Moran, he was MOM in the All Ireland final and scored crucial points from Wing Back, there is no bigger intervention needed. Nobody will remember that Andy Moran played well in a semi final apart from those in Mayo, but people will remember the performance McCarthy put in the final because thats where it mattered the most and he produced the goods.
    That is why is the derserving POTY, because up the final he had already set a high standard

    And that is your opinion.

    Why wouldn't the players remember he played well in every game? You keep making assumptions that the people voting are basically poorly informed fools. That is where your argument perishes every time. The same goes for this split voting nonsense. They are these players' peers. They know more about it than you do.

    tritium wrote: »
    Its hardly their fault that Dublin play at a level where Mayo and Kerry are the only two teams who can be competitive against them. Should a player or team get more credit for pulling it out of the fire in a tight game than for being so dominant that the situation rarely or never arises?

    I never said it was anyone's fault. I simply pointed out that is how the award tends to go. However, it doesn't really matter in this instance, as moran actually played better than any of them anyway.
    I am talking years from now. Your refusal to even concede that a Dublin player could be as deserving to win as Moran means there is no point even trying to debate logically with you. I give up


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    #273
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    I am talking years from now. Your refusal to even concede that a Dublin player could be as deserving to win as Moran means there is no point even trying to debate logically with you. I give up

    I refuse to concede that any player - Dublin or not - is as deserving as Moran, by virtue of the fact that I believe that Moran deserves the award this year ahead of the other players on show. That couldn't be any more logical...

    McCarthy was rarely being mentioned before the final, and frankly he had a good game not a great one (Roasted in the first half). If rock misses the free and it is a draw, barrett gets the motm award, so let's maybe nip the propaganda early doors.


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    #274
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Ok i am beginning to see where you are coming from. You cant say a good thing about Dublin thats fair enough. But there are grown ups on here on both sides who can concede that a players on both sides have had great years. Not one Dublin fan would dispute Moran has had a good year.
    I hope you take off those red and green tinted glasses before you go to bed at night


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    #275
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Crash Bang Wall wrote: »
    Is there any stats list for keepers that ignore up to 20 yard passes

    In his 11/11 in the second half, all after the sending offs were to free men when Mayo dropped off the kickouts. Hell I could do that.

    Its not a dig at Cluxton, hes the best keeper Ive ever seen.

    Its a dig at how stats can be manipulated

    That point has already been made man, multiple times. blanch and these lads don't want to hear it and will either ignore it or start finding fault with Clarke - because that somehow makes a difference to cluxton's poor kickouts.
    You do realise that Cluxton's stats on kickouts before the AI final were 83 out of 96. He missed 8 out of 14 in the 1st half and hit 11/11 in the 2nd, so where you are going with his poor kickouts is beyond me. It is not an award that is judged on the AI final but the complete campaign, Moran came to life in the latter stages, prior to that he was average. I am not saying he is not worthy, but he is not a nailed on for it either.


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    #276
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    Ok i am beginning to see where you are coming from. You cant say a good thing about Dublin thats fair enough. But there are grown ups on here on both sides who can concede that a players on both sides have had great years. Not one Dublin fan would dispute Moran has had a good year.
    I hope you take off those red and green tinted glasses before you go to bed at night

    Frankly, a load of nonsense.

    I have stated on this thread only yesterday, directly to you in fact, that Dublin are a great team.
    I accept completely that McCarthy has had a great year. I accept O'Callaghan and Mannion had very good years. I'd also contend that Barrett also had a great year, and Higgins, Doherty, AOS and Paul Geaney had very good years.

    My assertion isn't anything to do with that though. It is that Moran had the best year of all candidates and therefore deserves to win the award for best player of that year. If part or all of that completely reasonable, logical, and frankly simple to follow piece of info is going over your head, I don't really care at this stage.


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    #277
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    You do realise that Cluxton's stats on kickouts before the AI final were 83 out of 96. He missed 8 out of 14 in the 1st half and hit 11/11 in the 2nd, so where you are going with his poor kickouts is beyond me. It is not an award that is judged on the AI final but the complete campaign, Moran came to life in the latter stages, prior to that he was average. I am not saying he is not worthy, but he is not a nailed on for it either.

    It has already been addressed that the 11/11 stat were all short, and this was because his long efforts had been completely cracked. What you are saying is the equivalent of a free taker not shooting at the posts in the second half because he missed a hatful in the first, and then trying to claim he didn't put any wide in the second half.

    Complete nonsense in other words.


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    #278
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Well good luck to you.  I am finished discussing with you because from all the other threads you get involved it only just descends into a farce


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    #279
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    ArielAtom wrote: »
    You do realise that Cluxton's stats on kickouts before the AI final were 83 out of 96. He missed 8 out of 14 in the 1st half and hit 11/11 in the 2nd, so where you are going with his poor kickouts is beyond me. It is not an award that is judged on the AI final but the complete campaign, Moran came to life in the latter stages, prior to that he was average. I am not saying he is not worthy, but he is not a nailed on for it either.

    It has already been addressed that the 11/11 stat were all short, and this was because his long efforts had been completely cracked. What you are saying is the equivalent of a free taker not shooting at the posts in the second half because he missed a hatful in the first, and then trying to claim he didn't put any wide in the second half.

    Complete nonsense in other words.
    Wow, there you go again focusing on the AI final again. If you ignore the season and focus on the stats from the AI final and hand pick short kickouts there is no point in debating. 
    To us your words "Complete nonsense in other words"


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    #280
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    Well good luck to you. I am finished discussing with you because from all the other threads you get involved it only just descends into a farce

    Take a second to realise you are leaving the thread, because you cant admit that the bookies favourite to win the award has in fact done the most to win it...
    Farce is right :p
    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Wow, there you go again focusing on the AI final again. If you ignore the season and focus on the stats from the AI final and hand pick short kickouts there is no point in debating.
    To us your words "Complete nonsense in other words"

    But I didn't ignore the season. I addressed that McCarthy wasn't on the radar coming into the final - that is very much addressing the season.
    In the quote you posted, I was responding to a question about the kickouts in the second half of the final. How else can I respond to it except by addressing said kickouts?


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    #281
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    I said I wouldnt bite.
    I am not denying he has a chance any logical person would say he does but others too have a chance even if you dont want to believe it.
    but your biased I get it, you need something to hold to


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    #282
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,214 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Frankly, a load of nonsense.

    I have stated on this thread only yesterday, directly to you in fact, that Dublin are a great team.
    I accept completely that McCarthy has had a great year. I accept O'Callaghan and Mannion had very good years. I'd also contend that Barrett also had a great year, and Higgins, Doherty, AOS and Paul Geaney had very good years.

    My assertion isn't anything to do with that though. It is that Moran had the best year of all candidates and therefore deserves to win the award for best player of that year. If part or all of that completely reasonable, logical, and frankly simple to follow piece of info is going over your head, I don't really care at this stage.

    Look at your list of candidates:

    5 Mayo to 3 Dubs to 1 from Kerry, yet Mayo lost twice in the Championship and didn't win their province, Kerry only one and Dublin not at all and Kerry the only team to beat Dublin in any game all year.

    By any objective analysis, that is a wildly biased list. I won't so far as calling it a load of nonsense, but if Mayo had that many players having a great year or a very good year compared to the other teams, then either they would have won the League and Championship unbeaten, or the rest of Mayo's players are a load of crap.

    Now, if you had managed to say that Moran had a great year and that Mannion, McCarthy, Cluxton and O'Callaghan had very good years and that there were a clutch of Mayo players at a performance level below that, then you would have made a very good case for Moran to get POTY that would reflect the respective performances of the teams because team performance is a sum of player performance. That would have meant giving Dublin some credit, but is beyond you, it seems.


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    #283
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    kilns wrote: »
    Well good luck to you.  I am finished discussing with you because from all the other threads you get involved it only just descends into a farce

    Take a second to realise you are leaving the thread, because you cant admit that the bookies favourite to win the award has in fact done the most to win it...
    Farce is right :p
    ArielAtom wrote: »
    Wow, there you go again focusing on the AI final again. If you ignore the season and focus on the stats from the AI final and hand pick short kickouts there is no point in debating.
    To us your words "Complete nonsense in other words"

    But I didn't ignore the season. I addressed that McCarthy wasn't on the radar coming into the final - that is very much addressing the season.
    In the quote you posted, I was responding to a question about the kickouts in the second half of the final. How else can I respond to it except by addressing said kickouts?
    The debate is about POTY, the season as a whole must be addressed, you cannot just focus on what suits your thought process. You are debating stats when are facts, 11/11 cannot be debated. You say short kickouts are the reason, so what. stats are stats.


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    #284
    Irish Raven
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭Irish Raven


    ArielAtom wrote:
    But I didn't ignore the season. I addressed that McCarthy wasn't on the radar coming into the final - that is very much addressing the season. In the quote you posted, I was responding to a question about the kickouts in the second half of the final. How else can I respond to it except by addressing said kickouts?
    The debate is about POTY, the season as a whole must be addressed, you cannot just focus on what suits your thought process. You are debating stats when are facts, 11/11 cannot be debated. You say short kickouts are the reason, so what. stats are stats.[/quote]


    McCarthy wasnt on the radar? Ah lad come out of the fog....you must of been too focused on the Saturday qualifiers throughout the summer...McCarthy was the most consistent player through out every game in the Championship, and just happened to then put in an epic second half in an all Ireland final to get his team over the line....against a team by looking at some of the comments on this thread, consisted off half a dozen contenders for POTY...


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    #285
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,214 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Irish Raven wrote: »


    McCarthy wasnt on the radar? Ah lad come out of the fog....you must of been too focused on the Saturday qualifiers throughout the summer...McCarthy was the most consistent player through out every game in the Championship, and just happened to then put in an epic second half in an all Ireland final to get his team over the line....against a team by looking at some of the comments on this thread, consisted off half a dozen contenders for POTY...

    Wait until the All-Stars thread opens and there will be outrage when there isn't a Mayo nominee in every single position acclaimed as head and shoulders above all the rest.


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    #286
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    I said I wouldnt bite.
    I am not denying he has a chance any logical person would say he does but others too have a chance even if you dont want to believe it.
    but your biased I get it, you need something to hold to

    Im not saying they don't have a chance, Im saying they have less of a chance than moran, because moran is the front-runner for the award. What part of that don't you understand? It is common sense.

    blanch152 wrote: »
    Look at your list of candidates:

    5 Mayo to 3 Dubs to 1 from Kerry, yet Mayo lost twice in the Championship and didn't win their province, Kerry only one and Dublin not at all and Kerry the only team to beat Dublin in any game all year.

    By any objective analysis, that is a wildly biased list. I won't so far as calling it a load of nonsense, but if Mayo had that many players having a great year or a very good year compared to the other teams, then either they would have won the League and Championship unbeaten, or the rest of Mayo's players are a load of crap.

    Now, if you had managed to say that Moran had a great year and that Mannion, McCarthy, Cluxton and O'Callaghan had very good years and that there were a clutch of Mayo players at a performance level below that, then you would have made a very good case for Moran to get POTY that would reflect the respective performances of the teams because team performance is a sum of player performance. That would have meant giving Dublin some credit, but is beyond you, it seems.

    The players I listed are simply players who have had a good/great year. I never said they were all candidates for poty, you have shoehorned that in to suit yourself. There are only two candidates at present; McCarthy and Moran, with Moran being the deserving favourite.

    blanch152 wrote: »
    Wait until the All-Stars thread opens and there will be outrage when there isn't a Mayo nominee in every single position acclaimed as head and shoulders above all the rest.

    There will be mayo players in every line of the team. Some will be ahead of the rest some will be outsiders. Same as Dublin.


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    #287
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Irish Raven wrote: »
    McCarthy wasnt on the radar? Ah lad come out of the fog....you must of been too focused on the Saturday qualifiers throughout the summer...McCarthy was the most consistent player through out every game in the Championship, and just happened to then put in an epic second half in an all Ireland final to get his team over the line....against a team by looking at some of the comments on this thread, consisted off half a dozen contenders for POTY...

    The lads on this thread were barely suggesting him before the final. It was cluxton and ocallaghan with mannion a bit behind. Im simply going off what these guys themselves were saying.


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    #288
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    ArielAtom wrote: »
    The debate is about POTY, the season as a whole must be addressed, you cannot just focus on what suits your thought process. You are debating stats when are facts, 11/11 cannot be debated. You say short kickouts are the reason, so what. stats are stats.

    I cant help it if someone asks me a question about 11/11 kickouts in the second half in the middle of a different discussion.. Excuse me if I have the good manners to answer them.

    Maybe I should follow blanch's example of cherry picking questions to respond to.


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    #289
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,214 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »



    There will be mayo players in every line of the team. Some will be ahead of the rest some will be outsiders. Same as Dublin.

    That doesn't make sense.

    Mayo lost two Championship games, they struggled badly in others. They didn't feature in the League. Objectively, that would mean that 5 All-Stars would be over-stating their team's contribution.


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    #290
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That doesn't make sense.

    Mayo lost two Championship games, they struggled badly in others. They didn't feature in the League. Objectively, that would mean that 5 All-Stars would be over-stating their team's contribution.

    Sunday game team of the year:
    Mayo 7
    Dublin 7
    Kerry 1

    Take it up with them


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    #291
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,214 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Sunday game team of the year:
    Mayo 7
    Dublin 7
    Kerry 1

    Take it up with them

    They also said that Cluxton was among the greatest footballers of all time and that this Dublin team are up with the greatest of all time. Do you agree with them on that?


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    #292
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    I bet he even agrees that Aidan OShea deserved a place on that team :woot:


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    #293
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    They also said that Cluxton was among the greatest footballers of all time and that this Dublin team are up with the greatest of all time. Do you agree with them on that?

    I do agree on the Dublin team. I would argue that Cluxton has the greatest kickout of all time.

    Now that we are answering questions, can you explain what you mean by split voting in the context of poty votes? You keep referencing it. Yet when you are queried on it you go into hiding.


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    #294
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    kilns wrote: »
    I bet he even agrees that Aidan OShea deserved a place on that team :woot:

    Weren't you leaving?


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    #295
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,179 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Mayo lost two Championship games, they struggled badly in others. They didn't feature in the League. Objectively, that would mean that 5 All-Stars would be over-stating their team's contribution.

    What happens before August matters very little when it comes to the All Stars aside from the odd one or two token nods to players who drag their team to a QF i.e. Conor McManus.

    The All Stars are picked significantly based on what happens in the last 2-3 games of the season and what sticks in the minds of those voting.

    The league campaign isn't even going to register in the minds of the majority of people when it comes to the nominees or the winner.


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    #296
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    Just not entering petty debates with you


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    #297
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,214 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    I do agree on the Dublin team. I would argue that Cluxton has the greatest kickout of all time.

    .

    2 out of 3.

    Well you can allow me the two out of three as well, so I agree with them on Cluxton and Dublin but believe the hyperbole of the immediate aftermath of Sunday's final led them to pick too many Mayo players on the Team of the Year, several of whom didn't deserve a place.


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    #298
    MayoAreMagic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    blanch152 wrote: »
    2 out of 3.

    Well you can allow me the two out of three as well, so I agree with them on Cluxton and Dublin but believe the hyperbole of the immediate aftermath of Sunday's final led them to pick too many Mayo players on the Team of the Year, several of whom didn't deserve a place.

    You asked two questions I answered two questions.
    I asked one, you weren't able to answer it.


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    #299
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,179 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Now that we are answering questions, can you explain what you mean by split voting in the context of poty votes?

    spchlss.gif


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    #300
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    Irish Raven wrote: »
    ArielAtom wrote:
    But I didn't ignore the season. I addressed that McCarthy wasn't on the radar coming into the final - that is very much addressing the season. In the quote you posted, I was responding to a question about the kickouts in the second half of the final. How else can I respond to it except by addressing said kickouts?


    McCarthy wasnt on the radar? Ah lad come out of the fog....you must of been too focused on the Saturday qualifiers throughout the summer...McCarthy was the most consistent player through out every game in the Championship, and just happened to then put in an epic second half in an all Ireland final to get his team over the line....against a team by looking at some of the comments on this thread, consisted off half a dozen contenders for POTY...[/quote]


    Hi, I am with you, You have quoted me as having the above post. It was not me!!!!


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    #301
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,480 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    The thing about Dublin for me this year is that you want to be able to say of the player of the year - that when the team was really under pressure that this guy really delivered.

    The only time they really found themselves in that position was for 45 minutes on Sunday.

    Every other game was a cake walk for them. Clearly Con O'Callaghan for me was their standout player as I just dont see how you can say James McCarthy was all that much better than Kilkenny or Rock or McCaffrey.

    I dont mean that in a negative way; more the thing about Dublin is how they play together as a unit; and probably Kilkenny is the most important player in that unit alongside Cluxton; that the fact that these two were so well shackled by Mayo in the first half on Sunday was a major part of the reason why Mayo did so well.

    Lee Keegan is probably the best man marker in the country; they put him on Kilkenny.

    Against that, I didnt think O'Callaghan had a great game on Sunday apart from the opening two minutes.

    So thats why I would go with Andy Moran for this.


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