Footballer of the Year

kilns

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The thing about Dublin for me this year is that you want to be able to say of the player of the year - that when the team was really under pressure that this guy really delivered.

The only time they really found themselves in that position was for 45 minutes on Sunday.

Every other game was a cake walk for them.  Clearly Con O'Callaghan for me was their standout player as I just dont see how you can say James McCarthy was all that much better than Kilkenny or Rock or McCaffrey.  

I dont mean that in a negative way; more the thing about Dublin is how they play together as a unit; and probably Kilkenny is the most important player in that unit alongside Cluxton; that the fact that these two were so well shackled by Mayo in the first half on Sunday was a major part of the reason why Mayo did so well.

Lee Keegan is probably the best man marker in the country; they put him on Kilkenny.

Against that, I didnt think O'Callaghan had a great game on Sunday apart from the opening two minutes.

So thats why I would go with Andy Moran for this.

For example why punish a player who was an 8/10 every game along with a number of his teammates in games and other teams cant live with that, while a team that struggles and one guy gets them out of the fire with an 8/10 performance, why does he deserve the award just because his team struggled more?
In this case you have to considered guys from weaker counties for POTY

Tombo2001

kilns wrote: »

For example why punish a player who was an 8/10 every game along with a number of his teammates in games and other teams cant live with that, while a team that struggles and one guy gets them out of the fire with an 8/10 performance, why does he deserve the award just because his team struggled more?
In this case you have to considered guys from weaker counties for POTY

(I) Because if they are all 8/10 then how do you pick out just 1; and it also goes back to my other point - besides the final - Dublin won all their games so easily that there was no player of whom you could say 'without him theyd have been in trouble'.
(II) Teams that struggled this year included Offaly, Wicklow, Louth, Sligo, Donegal. Mayo beat the connaught champions in the QF; beat the munster champions in the SF, and lost by an injury time point to 'arguably the greatest team of all time' in the final - having been unlucky not receive a penalty five minutes earlier. Mayo - and I say this as a neutral - were absolutely superb this year.

blanch152

kilns wrote: »

For example why punish a player who was an 8/10 every game along with a number of his teammates in games and other teams cant live with that, while a team that struggles and one guy gets them out of the fire with an 8/10 performance, why does he deserve the award just because his team struggled more?
In this case you have to considered guys from weaker counties for POTY

The truth is that Dublin had Rock and Cluxton and McCarthy and Kilkenny and O'Callaghan and Mannion and Cooper making strong contributions in nearly every single match of the season.

Mayo had one player who contributed in most matches - Andy Moran - and who was missed badly when he was substituted or faded as in the All-Ireland final. The rest of them had patchy seasons at best.

As a result, Moran stands out whereas for the Dublin players it is hard to stand out in a team of giants.

kilns

Tombo2001 wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

For example why punish a player who was an 8/10 every game along with a number of his teammates in games and other teams cant live with that, while a team that struggles and one guy gets them out of the fire with an 8/10 performance, why does he deserve the award just because his team struggled more?
In this case you have to considered guys from weaker counties for POTY

(I) Because if they are all 8/10 then how do you pick out just 1
(II) Teams that struggled this year included Offaly, Wicklow, Louth, Sligo, Donegal.  Mayo beat the connaught champions in the QF; beat the munster champions in the SF, and lost by an injury time point to 'arguably the greatest team of all time' in the final - having been unlucky not receive a penalty five minutes earlier.  Mayo - and I say this as a neutral - were absolutely superb this year.

You give it to the guy who dug deepest in the final to win it for them and its not Dublin fault that they kept a consistent high level of performance throughout the year, up until the reply against Roscommon Mayo were awful
On the flip side you can argue that Dublin played more Division 1 teams in the championship this year than Mayo and maintained a much higher standard.

Tombo2001

Funny enough - when they finally did come under pressure, Diarmuid Connolly arguably did as much to tip the scales as anyone this year. He only played 1 half, but I'm not sure they'd have won the game without him.

kilns

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Funny enough - when they finally did come under pressure, Diarmuid Connolly arguably did as much to tip the scales as anyone this year.  He only played 1 half, but I'm not sure they'd have won the game without him.

He did, along with McCarthy I would have had him as Dublins Man of the Match

Tombo2001

kilns wrote: »

You give it to the guy who dug deepest in the final to win it for them and its not Dublin fault that they kept a consistent high level of performance throughout the year, up until the reply against Roscommon Mayo were awful
On the flip side you can argue that Dublin played more Division 1 teams in the championship this year than Mayo and maintained a much higher standard.

For me, as mentioned, Connolly was the guy that swung the pendulum.

Why - because he took the heat off Kilkenny as a second playmaker.

MayoAreMagic

Buer wrote: »

Im fully aware of what is meant by it.

Blanch however, seems to think it means something different. Im asking what he thinks it means. He wont answer.

People may disagree with me, but nobody can say Im not brave enough to answer a question posed to me..

corny

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Funny enough - when they finally did come under pressure, Diarmuid Connolly arguably did as much to tip the scales as anyone this year. He only played 1 half, but I'm not sure they'd have won the game without him.

His point was ridiculous. He walked around McLoughlin, Keegan and Parsons (twice).

Must have given a big lift to all around him.

kilns

corny wrote: »

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Funny enough - when they finally did come under pressure, Diarmuid Connolly arguably did as much to tip the scales as anyone this year.  He only played 1 half, but I'm not sure they'd have won the game without him.

His point was ridiculous. He walked around McLoughlin, Keegan and Parsons (twice).

Must have given a big lift to all around him.

In terms of natural talent there is no equal in the game at the moment, his pass to Rock too was probably the best seen in Croke park

MayoAreMagic

corny wrote: »

His point was ridiculous. He walked around McLoughlin, Keegan and Parsons (twice).

Must have given a big lift to all around him.

True enough. The value of having fresh legs and quality on the bench was clear. D O'Connor left a few dubs for dead on a couple of slaloms also.

I do feel for the lads who start in that situation though. 6 fresh faces is a lot to be defending against. Personally Id rather see guys beaten with skill rather than exhaustion.

Martina1991

blanch152 wrote: »

Mayo had one player who contributed in most matches - Andy Moran - and who was missed badly when he was substituted or faded as in the All-Ireland final. The rest of them had patchy seasons at best.

As a result, Moran stands out whereas for the Dublin players it is hard to stand out in a team of giants.

I wouldn't say Aidan O Shea has a patchy season. He has a great season, and silenced his MANY critics that he doesn't perform well in big games.

Colm Boyle also had the best season of his career. I would even put him ahead of Andy this year.

Tom Parsons was a rock at midfield, missing some game time due to illness. He made Fenton, a former POTY, look average.

Higgins, Keegan, Doherty were all very consistant too.

Mayo did not get to the final by being "carried" by Andy Moran.

Buer

Martina1991 wrote: »

Tom Parsons was a rock at midfield, missing some game time due to illness. He made Fenton, a former POTY, look average.

Nope.

MayoAreMagic

Martina1991 wrote: »

I wouldn't say Aidan O Shea has a patchy season. He has a great season, and silenced his MANY critics that he doesn't perform well in big games.

Colm Boyle also had the best season of his career. I would even put him ahead of Andy this year.

Tom Parsons was a rock at midfield, missing some game time due to illness. He made Fenton, a former POTY, look average.

Higgins, Keegan, Doherty were all very consistant too.

Mayo did not get to the final by being "carried" by Andy Moran.

Spot on, and any honest dub fan would agree with you too.

It doesn't suit his narrative though so he wont be one of them.

kilns

Martina1991 wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Mayo had one player who contributed in most matches - Andy Moran - and who was missed badly when he was substituted or faded as in the All-Ireland final. The rest of them had patchy seasons at best.

As a result, Moran stands out whereas for the Dublin players it is hard to stand out in a team of giants.

I wouldn't say Aidan O Shea has a patchy season. He has a great season, and silenced his MANY critics that he doesn't perform well in big games.

Colm Boyle also had the best season of his career. I would even put him ahead of Andy this year.

Tom Parsons was a rock at midfield, missing some game time due to illness. He made Fenton, a former POTY, look average.

Higgins, Keegan, Doherty were all very consistant too.

Mayo did not get to the final by being "carried" by Andy Moran.

AOS, first game against Roscommon was poor, not his fault but had a terrible first game against Kerry.  In the final he did ok up to 40 mins and then never touched the ball after that.  Thats not good enough from one of your top players.  Maybe he was gased but then he should have been taken off.

blanch152

Martina1991 wrote: »

I wouldn't say Aidan O Shea has a patchy season. He has a great season, and silenced his MANY critics that he doesn't perform well in big games.

Colm Boyle also had the best season of his career. I would even put him ahead of Andy this year.

Tom Parsons was a rock at midfield, missing some game time due to illness. He made Fenton, a former POTY, look average.

Higgins, Keegan, Doherty were all very consistant too.

Mayo did not get to the final by being "carried" by Andy Moran.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Spot on, and any honest dub fan would agree with you too.

It doesn't suit his narrative though so he wont be one of them.

It just isn't possible for that number of Mayo players to have had consistently great or very good seasons and match it up to the actual results in League and Championship without the rest of the team not mentioned having had extremely poor seasons and effectively been passengers. That is the objective reality. If you name 8 or 9 players (I see Martina left out Barrett who was mentioned earlier by MAM and neither mention Clarke) as having had a great season for Mayo, that just doesn't match the objective facts of two Championship defeats, struggles in the qualifiers and a poor League run.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

It just isn't possible for that number of Mayo players to have had consistently great or very good seasons and match it up to the actual results in League and Championship without the rest of the team not mentioned having had extremely poor seasons and effectively been passengers. That is the objective reality. If you name 8 or 9 players (I see Martina left out Barrett who was mentioned earlier by MAM and neither mention Clarke) as having had a great season for Mayo, that just doesn't match the objective facts of two Championship defeats, struggles in the qualifiers and a poor League run.

The thing isn't decided on the league though. It is decided by the players themselves who vote for the best player in the game that year. Lee Keegan last year. Probably Andy Moran this year, etc. If you don't get it, don't worry, they are more qualified than you to answer.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The thing isn't decided on the league though. It is decided by the players themselves who vote for the best player in the game that year. Lee Keegan last year. Probably Andy Moran this year, etc. If you don't get it, don't worry, they are more qualified than you to answer.

I am not arguing with a players' decision that hasn't been made yet.

I am pointing out the weakness in nominating 8 or 9 Mayo players who had a consistent very good or great year.

kilns

Geniune question for Mayo fans, are ye sick of all this ah poor Mayo, I think alot of pundits are sympatising with them too much and not breaking down the games and why they arent winning the important ones.
truth be told Andy Moran will get alot of sympathy votes come POTY too

Martina1991

blanch152 wrote: »

It just isn't possible for that number of Mayo players to have had consistently great or very good seasons and match it up to the actual results in League and Championship without the rest of the team not mentioned having had extremely poor seasons and effectively been passengers. That is the objective reality. If you name 8 or 9 players (I see Martina left out Barrett who was mentioned earlier by MAM and neither mention Clarke) as having had a great season for Mayo, that just doesn't match the objective facts of two Championship defeats, struggles in the qualifiers and a poor League run.

I forgot Chris Barrett, his performance in the final for me was 10/10. Poor ol David Clarke has been torn to bits in this thread :rolleyes:

I don't see why you keep going on about poor league, defeats etc when Mayo still got to the final, and nearly won. Who cares how they did it. They ground it out when it counted.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not arguing with a players' decision that hasn't been made yet.

I am pointing out the weakness in nominating 8 or 9 Mayo players who had a consistent very good or great year.

Well you were arguing with the keegan decision, you said it was down to split voting, whatever you mean by that - we don't know because you wont elaborate.
You then argued that moran wasn't the front-running candidate, despite him being the favourite for the award. Obviously you have an issue with their selections/ideas on selection.

As for the good or great year. Players can still play well in tight games - even games they lose. Barrett in the final for example. Similarly players can be poor in games the team wins - cluxton in the final, fenton etc.

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

Geniune question for Mayo fans, are ye sick of all this ah poor Mayo, I think alot of pundits are sympatising with them too much and not breaking down the games and why they arent winning the important ones.
truth be told Andy Moran will get alot of sympathy votes come POTY too

From who? What players are going to do this? Any why?

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

From who? What players are going to do this? Any why?

Even Ciaran Whelan feels sorry for Mayo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/ciaran-whelan-i-am-sorry-for-what-mayo-have-suffered-36147846.html


You can be certain that many current players will feel the same and give Moran a sympathy vote.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Even Ciaran Whelan feels sorry for Mayo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/ciaran-whelan-i-am-sorry-for-what-mayo-have-suffered-36147846.html


You can be certain that many current players will feel the same and give Moran a sympathy vote.

That doesnt mean he would vote for him ahead of a more deserving player though (although one doesnt exist in this instance), particularly if that player was from his own county.

Is that what you think split voting is?

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That doesnt mean he would vote for him ahead of a more deserving player though (although one doesnt exist in this instance), particularly if that player was from his own county.

Even when presented with evidence, you still deny the obvious.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Even when presented with evidence, you still deny the obvious.

Evidence that people feel bad for mayo.. Not a lot else.
Colm parkinson stated that he felt bad for Cluxton pre 2011. Cluxton never won poty in that time though, so feeling bad for someone is not proof that they will deliberately rob a more deserving candidate of their accolade. In fact if cluxton were to win it this year, it would arguably be the first heart ruling head poty award that the players have voted for.

seligehgit

kilns wrote: »

Geniune question for Mayo fans, are ye sick of all this ah poor Mayo, I think alot of pundits are sympatising with them too much and not breaking down the games and why they arent winning the important ones.
truth be told Andy Moran will get alot of sympathy votes come POTY too

Sick to the teeth of it.
Multipile of factors,simply not good enough,inferior bench,inability to take our scoring chances,failure to push on when the pressure comes on.Lack of discipline,that bit of the rub of green,errant kickouts.

Cillian is been slated for hitting the post with a very difficult free out at the Hogan stand,I'd be disappointed there was no Mayo player anticipating this scenario.

This sympathy vote mullarky peddled by some is a load of tosh,Moran is in contention for player of the year for good reason and on merit.He has been consistently good for Mayo throughout the championship as have other Mayo players: O Shea,Higgins was poor in the earlier part of the championship with his brainfreeze against Galway but was exceptional in the latter part of it,ditto Boyle,Keegan did an excellent job in manmarking Ciaran Kilkenny,he'd a decent year with an exceptional day out against Roscommon.The cellulitis certainly affected his performance in the semi finals and of course he missed the quarter final replay.Barrett was our best player in the final and was very unlucky he did not the MOTM award,great year's work.I suppose tis fair when you come out the wrong side of the result,however close.

Parsons is an All Star certainty.Kevin Mc gave his most complete performance in a final and had a very good year.Delighted for him.

The All Star team would be 15 Dublin players if it was based on the league and championship but we all know that is not how these matters including the POTY are decided.The league matters little and a premium is placed on performances in Croker in the championship.

Ultimately I think Cluxton should get the All Star hands down irrespective of the conversation re his lost first half kickouts and the merits of the short kickouts surrendered in the second half.He was consistent throughout the season,saved a penalty,made a crucial save in the final.In spite of Clarke's shot stopping and fine season,his two final kickouts malfunction was match defining.

Mannion was Dublin's standout player season long IMO,others may consider O Sullivan and McCarthy.O Callaghan was very good but although his goal was not as visible.Dean Rock was brilliant for me,had an awful start but produced a great performance and the ultimate nail in the coffin.Super season,best free taker in the game ATM.

So it's Moran,Mannion and another Dublin player(take your pick as it's a long list) with none of this nonsense about split votes.

TCDStudent1

seligehgit wrote: »

Sick to the teeth of it.
Multipile of factors,simply not good enough,inferior bench,inability to take our scoring chances,failure to push on when the pressure comes on.Lack of discipline,that bit of the rub of green,errant kickouts.

Cillian is been slated for hitting the post with a very difficult free out at the Hogan stand,I'd be disappointed there was no Mayo player anticipating this scenario.

This sympathy vote mullarky peddled by some is a load of tosh,Moran is in contention for player of the year for good reason and on merit.He has been consistently good for Mayo throughout the championship as have other Mayo players: O Shea,Higgins was poor in the earlier part of the championship with his brainfreeze against Galway but was exceptional in the latter part of it,ditto Boyle,Keegan did an excellent job in manmarking Ciaran Kilkenny,he'd a decent year with an exceptional day out against Roscommon.The cellulitis certainly affected his performance in the semi finals and of course he missed the quarter final replay.Barrett was our best player in the final and was very unlucky he did not the MOTM award,great year's work.I suppose tis fair when you come out the wrong side of the result,however close.

Parsons is an All Star certainty.Kevin Mc gave his most complete performance in a final and had a very good year.Delighted for him.

The All Star team would be 15 Dublin players if it was based on the league and championship but we all know that is not how these matters including the POTY are decided.The league matters little and a premium is placed on performances in Croker in the championship.

Ultimately I think Cluxton should get the All Star hands down irrespective of the conversation re his lost first half kickouts and the merits of the short kickouts surrendered in the second half.He was consistent throughout the season,saved a penalty,made a crucial save in the final.In spite of Clarke's shot stopping and fine season,his two final kickouts malfunction was match defining.

Mannion was Dublin's standout player season long IMO,others may consider O Sullivan and McCarthy.O Callaghan was very good but although his goal was not as visible.Dean Rock was brilliant for me,had an awful start but produced a great performance and the ultimate nail in the coffin.Super season,best free taker in the game ATM.

So it's Moran,Mannion and another Dublin player(take your pick as it's a long list) with none of this nonsense about split votes.

A bit off the point of your post but I wouldn't call O'Connors free very difficult. Slightly tricky angle maybe. But a right footed free taker should be pointing it.

MayoAreMagic

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

A bit off the point of your post but I wouldn't call O'Connors free very difficult. Slightly tricky angle maybe. But a right footed free taker should be pointing it.

Ah in fairness to him, there was a tricky wind down that end on the day. Rock missed 3 in the first half too

seligehgit

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

A bit off the point of your post but I wouldn't call O'Connors free very difficult. Slightly tricky angle maybe. But a right footed free taker should be pointing it.

Haven't had a first viewing of the game but from where I was sat it looked a tricky one but fair enough I respect your opinion.