New Zoe, new wart?

reboot · 17-08-2017 4:22pm

Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?

17-08-2017 9:17pm

The 30 Kwh leaf is quiet behind really, it charges about 45 Kw to 80% and Ioniq 65 Kw to 80% than around 40-45 Kw until 90% this is a big difference and huge compared to the 24 Kwh leaf.

At the most Leaf II will probably charge at 65 Kw which is the limit for ChaDeMo if I remember correctly then can the triple headed units charge at 65 Kw on ChaDeMo ? I have my doubts but then again no one know the same chargers could dish out 65 Kw on CCS.

listermint · 17-08-2017 11:20pm

reboot wrote: »

Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?

What price for the power wall and the capacity?

reboot · 18-08-2017 7:50am

Listermint,sorry,have to get back to you on details.

reboot · 18-08-2017 8:55am

listermint wrote: »

reboot wrote: »

Sorry if already discussed, the nice people at Renault/ Nissan alliance would like to sell me a power wall from Zoe batteries, I'm pretty sure I've paid for two batteries already, and they want me to buy them again?

What price for the power wall and the capacity?

Renault, in partnership with Power vault, are currently, sorry, running trials with 50 M&S customers in the SE of England. No prices or stats yet, and the Renault/Nissan alliance involved in a 100 MW battery storage scheme, as previously pointed out, Kilroot power station, in Large has biggest battery storage system in Europe soon.
By

The Black Oil · 19-08-2017 3:31pm

Good 24 hour real world test here. Dealership side let things down at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-QFnUAUZA

ELM327 · 21-08-2017 8:17am

That episode - I watched it all - really highlights the crappy sales network EV are given.
He should have been told it was fast AC type2, and explained it was different than type 1.

reboot · 28-08-2017 8:52am

ei9go wrote: »

Offered to buy a Used Zoe last week from a dealer in NI if I could buy out the battery lease.

He rang Renault UK who said it was not possible to buy out a battery lease.

I think it's bizarre. Do they not want to sell cars.

Renault dealer told me he was not permitted to put an "Electric "sticker, on the Zoe, Renault may want to sell cars, but not EV over a more expensive Ice?

The Black Oil · 05-09-2017 9:39pm

Dealership more on the ball this time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG4ozaio1Q

LordSutch · 06-09-2017 7:26am

^Excellent Zoe review above^

Really comprehensive, would make me want to go out and buy one tomorrow (if I didn't need a bigger car) which I do, for family commitments.

Zoe + 40kw battery = highly recommended.

Soarer · 06-09-2017 10:23am

Right lads.

What's the story with these little yokes?
I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?
No DC charging?
What speed does it charge on AC?
Does it have a "cold pack" or can it be preheated while home charging?

Definitely gonna change my Leaf in the next few weeks/months, and looking at all options.

ELM327 · 06-09-2017 10:28am

Soarer wrote: »

Right lads.

What's the story with these little yokes?
I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?
No DC charging?
What speed does it charge on AC?
Does it have a "cold pack" or can it be preheated while home charging?

Definitely gonna change my Leaf in the next few weeks/months, and looking at all options.

No DC charging.
If you get the Q90 model it charges at approx 30-35kW AC from a fastAC43 connection, meaning 0-80% takes 1 hour5mins. If you get a R90 it will take 1hour40minutes to 80%.

There's a good app for preheating etc. Not sure there's a cold pack like the leaf. There's a guy on youtube "jan bart spang" who has a series of videos (ireland based) on the Zoe which I find explains a lot especially the earlier videos.

I was told by Renault that I could have an Q90 for approx 410 per month with a 3k deposit.
I'm just not sure that in 2-3-5 years that there will be the same number of fast AC chargers. AC is not scalable. DC is the future for charging, and I would be very very wary of commiting 30k of money to an already antiquated tech. The new Zoe will come with the R90 motor (22kW AC) but also is going to have CCS DC compatibility

LordSutch · 06-09-2017 10:40am

ELM327 wrote: »

The new Zoe will come with the R90 motor (22kW AC) but also is going to have CCS DC compatibility

As a novice to EVs can somebody please explain the battery power to me.

I thought the Zoe came with a 40kwh battery!

ELM327 · 06-09-2017 10:47am

LordSutch wrote: »

As a novice to EVs can somebody please explain the battery power to me.

I thought the Zoe came with a 40kwh battery!

It's a 41kWh battery - which is a measure of the stored energy in the battery.
The 22kW is the power that the charger in the car can send to the battery.
A Zoe can be purchased with either a Q90 or R90 motor. The Q90 comes with a charger that can deliver 43kW to the battery, whereas the R90 can only deliver 22kW to the battery. These kW figures refer to charging speed - ie the speed you can recharge the battery. kWh is the amount of "power" stored in the battery, and the two are linked. EG If you charge at 22kW for 1 hour you will receive 22kWh

LordSutch · 06-09-2017 10:52am

Many thanks for that very detailed/technical post ^

I only asked because there was talk of two battery options, option one being the 22kwh battery powered version, and option two being the 40kw long range one. I guess were all talking about (option two) the bigger battery output these days, are we?

Soarer · 06-09-2017 10:58am

Great stuff ELM.

I'd not be buying new. Probably bring one in from the UK. Need to keep an eye out for the Q90 motor.

And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

Also, the Leaf feels/seems fairly quick. Is the Zoe something similar?

LordSutch · 06-09-2017 11:04am

OK, so its the Q90 option/motor that's the one to go for.

Got it.

Soarer · 06-09-2017 11:07am

Just looking on the renault.co.uk website, and it gives the R90 motor an NEDC range of 250 miles with the Q90 having a range of 230 miles.
Any idea why the difference?

grogi · 06-09-2017 11:09am

Soarer wrote: »

And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

The 22kW is three phase charging, each 7.3kW. Your home charger is 32A, 230V -> 7.3kW. Zoe cannot drag more from one phase supply than that.

grogi · 06-09-2017 11:13am

Soarer wrote: »

Just looking on the renault.co.uk website, and it gives the R90 motor an NEDC range of 250 miles with the Q90 having a range of 230 miles.
Any idea why the difference?

They are optimised for different speeds.

Nice read here: https://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2017/03/renault-zoe-r90-ze-40-review/

ELM327 · 06-09-2017 11:25am

Soarer wrote: »

Great stuff ELM.

I'd not be buying new. Probably bring one in from the UK. Need to keep an eye out for the Q90 motor.

And what's the story with home charging? I've a 32A charger at the minute for the Leaf even though it's only using 16A. If I were to swap that for a Zoe charger, what would it pull at?

Also, the Leaf feels/seems fairly quick. Is the Zoe something similar?

If you have an untethered unit, which from memory you do, you can plug the Zoe in and it will pull the maximum available power. So you will be limited by the home charger to 32a single phase or approx 7kW.

The Zoe is - from youtubers only - not as nippy as the leaf and is limited to 84mph top speed.

unkel · 06-09-2017 12:26pm

Soarer wrote: »

I think I read there's a ferocious difference in range between winter and summer?

According to Renault themselves, range of the Zoe 41kWh is about 300km in summer and 200km in winter. It's easy enough to find this on any Renault website, like Renault.ie

reboot · 06-09-2017 1:13pm

Zoe manages fine in my 5 years of driving them, much faster charge at 22 kva CPs than Leaf, sorry.
Heating from the heat pump in winter, pretty useless, with battery dropping by around 20%, and major charging faults around earthing at CPs. I won't change, nor will the car.

06-09-2017 2:04pm

unkel wrote: »

According to Renault themselves, range of the Zoe 41kWh is about 300km in summer and 200km in winter. It's easy enough to find this on any Renault website, like Renault.ie

200 Kms in winter in a cold country maybe, wet roads and wind have a far greater impact in an Irish climate.

I don't notice much of a range difference in winter in the 24 kWh leaf it certainly doesn't loose half the range not even remotely close.

ELM327 · 06-09-2017 3:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

200 Kms in winter in a cold country maybe, wet roads and wind have a far greater impact in an Irish climate.

I don't notice much of a range difference in winter in the 24 kWh leaf it certainly doesn't loose half the range not even remotely close.

I'd say I lost 10-15% range in the winter compared to the summer.
I was leaving the house with 4 bars of temp compared to 5 (or even 6) in the summer so that's probably why. Preheating and the cold pack really saved some range though so I imagine up to 25% loss is possible. Certainly not 50% though.

Mancomb Seepgood · 07-09-2017 12:37pm

Is the ZE40 model available with the Q90 motor in Ireland yet?I'd give serious thought to getting a Zoe 40 as a replacement for my 24kw Leaf - could probably live with the slower charging given I'd be starting out with more range!Would definitely wait for a second hand model, though.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 2:37pm

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Is the ZE40 model available with the Q90 motor in Ireland yet?I'd give serious thought to getting a Zoe 40 as a replacement for my 24kw Leaf - could probably live with the slower charging given I'd be starting out with more range!Would definitely wait for a second hand model, though.

It is, it's on the renault website, I have only seen one demo somewhere in Kerry equipped with the q90 though. Most are the r90 which are much less desirable. Still way better than a 24kWh leaf though (as a fellow 24kWh leaf owner :cool:)

unkel · 07-09-2017 2:47pm

There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?

reboot · 07-09-2017 3:04pm

unkel wrote: »

There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?

My original Zoe, one of the very first 2013, took a fast charge. The replacement did not, unless you paid a lot more, so they took the fast away and would only give it back if you paid more for what you already had.
The second car had a Renault motor, which originally wasn't as fussy about Earth's as the first, but now has been throwing hissy fits, apparently doesn't like anything over 140 ohms, Leaf never had this problem, for reasons previously discussed, both cars from the Renault/ Nissan alliance. Some alliance.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 4:04pm

unkel wrote: »

There was a Zoe charging at 43kW off the triple head efacec (fast AC) while I was charging at 49kW off the same triple head (CCS). It was the old model (iirc a 151 reg), so which exactly can do that? All of the first gen Zoe?

Very handy in Ireland where more and more there will be queues at the FCP with only one car being able to fast charge at the same time (plus Zoe with no queue on the AC)

How common are those charging problems / bad grounds on the Zoe?

All of the early 2015 and before Zoe came with AC43. then they brought in the R240 motor and 22kW became the standard with 43kW (Q240) as a paid option. It's the same now, and in the ZE40 it's the same except it's called R90 for the 22kW and Q90 for the 43kW. Apparently the Q90 suffers a lot more agressive tapering than the Q240, meaning it charges at less than 43kW for most of the curve.

Although the Ioniq can charge much faster, i have to say the idea of a pretty much reserved FCP + ability to get medium speed 22kW from any AC SCP, puts me firmly looking at a Q90 for my next EV.

Mancomb Seepgood · 07-09-2017 4:12pm

ELM327 wrote: »

It is, it's on the renault website, I have only seen one demo somewhere in Kerry equipped with the q90 though. Most are the r90 which are much less desirable. Still way better than a 24kWh leaf though (as a fellow 24kWh leaf owner :cool:)

Ah, see it now. The price premium isn't as high as I thought though the overall cost is still quite pricey. I think you could quite happily live with an R90 in Ireland so long as you aren't doing a lot of very long journeys - with a 41kw battery I could drive to Galway from my house in Kildare, without charging by which time I'd probably need a good break anyway!

That said, faster charging is always better.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 4:19pm

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Ah, see it now. The price premium isn't as high as I thought though the overall cost is still quite pricey. I think you could quite happily live with an R90 in Ireland so long as you aren't doing a lot of very long journeys - with a 41kw battery I could drive to Galway from my house in Kildare, without charging by which time I'd probably need a good break anyway!

That said, faster charging is always better.

Yes it's now a 1500 option I believe, but in reality they are very scarce.

For some people it may be fine but i on occasion (a couple times a month) have a 400-700km drive to make. It's a pain in my 24kWh leaf and my next EV needs to make it less of a pain. 2 stops of an hour each in a Q90 is less of a pain than 7 stops of 15-30 minutes in my current EV, but 2 stops of 30 minutes would be better again, as would one stop (or no stop!).

We can dream....

ELM327 · 27-02-2018 4:24pm

So. Question.

Times change and I've moved on from my trusty leaf, and will need a new EV to tide me over to my model 3.
Can you buy a battery leased Zoe and upgrade the battery? Is that a thing?

unkel · 27-02-2018 7:42pm

Yes you can. But you'll pay the battery lease forever, nobody will want to take over the lease, so your car is unsellable. And then when it is end of life, you will have to pay Renault to scrap it (in order for them to stop the lease)

Cheapest way in initial outlay to get into a long(ish) range EV though...

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 9:02am

unkel wrote: »

Yes you can. But you'll pay the battery lease forever, nobody will want to take over the lease, so your car is unsellable. And then when it is end of life, you will have to pay Renault to scrap it (in order for them to stop the lease)

Cheapest way in initial outlay to get into a long(ish) range EV though...

10% per year depreciation from the initial cost for the battery and you can buy it out at end of lease from RCI?

Also.. do you know who to contact or how one would go about upgrading? I'm looking at Zoes in the 5-6k£ range so if it was 3k to upgrade that would represent a massive saving on the Q90 models currently available

unkel · 28-02-2018 11:27am

Buy out the lease? Not so sure if you can / at what cost. I don't have the details, but yes it is a very low cash entry point to longish range EV ownership. I'd think about it though and do a proper TCO once you are certain of the details about the lease.

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 11:36am

TCO is cheaper until 8 years of ownership. I only intend to keep this until my Model 3 (or CPO Model S with dual chargers and dual motor with AP) arrives. Probably 2 years at most for the model 3. Less for the S. Just sick of filling up with dino juice. Even in my Prius it's still >300 a month.

KCross · 28-02-2018 12:10pm

ELM327 wrote: »

10% per year depreciation from the initial cost for the battery and you can buy it out at end of lease from RCI?

Also.. do you know who to contact or how one would go about upgrading? I'm looking at Zoes in the 5-6k£ range so if it was 3k to upgrade that would represent a massive saving on the Q90 models currently available

I remember reading somewhere that the battery upgrade was like €9k if you owned the battery and maybe €5k if it was a lease and you also had to pay higher battery rental afterwards as well!!

And the big issue.... what do you do when its time to sell it? How do you offload the lease? Buying it out is likely to be expensive.

You need to thread carefully. The Zoe is not that popular here so it could be a harder sell than you think outside of the financial shenanigans and RCI etc.

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:16pm

I like the Zoe. But it's a bit pricey compared to the leaf here especially used. And it's a smaller class of car. It's very popular in mainland Europe though. Why is that?

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:17pm

Also it's only got two seat belts in the rear. I think.

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 12:28pm

Has 3 belts in the rear.
It's all about TCO really, I'll have to do the sums.

For me, with the network the way it is, a cheap Zoe, particularly one with a 3-4-5k upgrade to 41kWh possible, is the best way around the crappy network. If I can do 250-300km range on a 2 hour charge at work then I'll not need to use the public network at all. My commute is 120km round trip.

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:41pm

Total cost of ownership?

I'd like to see the figures you are thinking of.

I know from my current use that I rarely do long trips or fill up away from home. But I do occasionally need a splash and go when I forget to fill the car and need to go some somewhere and am stuck for time.

So when I do go electric I will rarely charge away from home but if I do a rapid charger would be very handy.

unkel · 28-02-2018 4:45pm

ELM327 wrote: »

My commute is 120km round trip.

If you have both home and work charging, then your Leaf 24kWh can easily do this even at the worst day of the year driving it hard?

goz83 · 03-03-2018 11:08am

unkel wrote: »

If you have both home and work charging, then your Leaf 24kWh can easily do this even at the worst day of the year driving it hard?

He got rid of the leaf

Mike9832 · 11-02-2019 11:29pm

2019 version looks interesting

400 km WLTP, 22 kw AC, 130bhp, 55kWh pack, 100 kw DC CCS... for 30k

Best value EV yet?

https://electrek.co/2019/02/11/renault-zoe-refresh-range-charging/

unkel · 11-02-2019 11:44pm

Interesting is right, although the article is vague about the price. It mentions 30k but doesn't specify what currency that is. Presumably EUR

It is also most likely the price before taxes and incentives. So in the case of Ireland you have to add €7k VAT and deduct €5k SEAI grant. A €32k supermini isn't exactly great value for money in my book while you can buy its sister car in petrol for just €10k (Dacia Sandero)

Mike9832 · 11-02-2019 11:51pm

unkel wrote: »

Interesting is right, although the article is vague about the price. It mentions 30k but doesn't specify what currency that is. Presumably EUR

It is also most likely the price before taxes and incentives. So in the case of Ireland you have to add €7k VAT and deduct €5k SEAI grant. A €32k supermini isn't exactly great value for money in my book while you can buy its sister car in petrol for just €10k (Dacia Sandero)

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

Current one is what 28k

26k with those specs would be competitive, it will have to be around that price if VW ID will be 28k

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/renault-zoe-2-2019-tout-savoir-sur-la-nouvelle-zoe-electrique-9620390.html

unkel · 12-02-2019 12:51am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

I don't see how as they put the number of 30k on it. That's just far too much for a small supermini. Even if it had a 500km range

beauf · 12-02-2019 8:58am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

Current one is what 28k

26k with those specs would be competitive, it will have to be around that price if VW ID will be 28k

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/renault-zoe-2-2019-tout-savoir-sur-la-nouvelle-zoe-electrique-9620390.html

Seems unlikely price for the ID

liamog · 12-02-2019 9:28am

beauf wrote: »

Seems unlikely price for the ID

The number for the entry level ID Neo has been €25,000 for a long time now. The investment made in the platform means it has to be a volume play. I don't really think they'll sell many entry level models though.

New Zoe, new wart?

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