New Zoe, new wart?

Mancomb Seepgood · 07-09-2017 4:12pm

ELM327 wrote: »

It is, it's on the renault website, I have only seen one demo somewhere in Kerry equipped with the q90 though. Most are the r90 which are much less desirable. Still way better than a 24kWh leaf though (as a fellow 24kWh leaf owner :cool:)

Ah, see it now. The price premium isn't as high as I thought though the overall cost is still quite pricey. I think you could quite happily live with an R90 in Ireland so long as you aren't doing a lot of very long journeys - with a 41kw battery I could drive to Galway from my house in Kildare, without charging by which time I'd probably need a good break anyway!

That said, faster charging is always better.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 4:19pm

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Ah, see it now. The price premium isn't as high as I thought though the overall cost is still quite pricey. I think you could quite happily live with an R90 in Ireland so long as you aren't doing a lot of very long journeys - with a 41kw battery I could drive to Galway from my house in Kildare, without charging by which time I'd probably need a good break anyway!

That said, faster charging is always better.

Yes it's now a 1500 option I believe, but in reality they are very scarce.

For some people it may be fine but i on occasion (a couple times a month) have a 400-700km drive to make. It's a pain in my 24kWh leaf and my next EV needs to make it less of a pain. 2 stops of an hour each in a Q90 is less of a pain than 7 stops of 15-30 minutes in my current EV, but 2 stops of 30 minutes would be better again, as would one stop (or no stop!).

We can dream....

ELM327 · 27-02-2018 4:24pm

So. Question.

Times change and I've moved on from my trusty leaf, and will need a new EV to tide me over to my model 3.
Can you buy a battery leased Zoe and upgrade the battery? Is that a thing?

unkel · 27-02-2018 7:42pm

Yes you can. But you'll pay the battery lease forever, nobody will want to take over the lease, so your car is unsellable. And then when it is end of life, you will have to pay Renault to scrap it (in order for them to stop the lease)

Cheapest way in initial outlay to get into a long(ish) range EV though...

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 9:02am

unkel wrote: »

Yes you can. But you'll pay the battery lease forever, nobody will want to take over the lease, so your car is unsellable. And then when it is end of life, you will have to pay Renault to scrap it (in order for them to stop the lease)

Cheapest way in initial outlay to get into a long(ish) range EV though...

10% per year depreciation from the initial cost for the battery and you can buy it out at end of lease from RCI?

Also.. do you know who to contact or how one would go about upgrading? I'm looking at Zoes in the 5-6k£ range so if it was 3k to upgrade that would represent a massive saving on the Q90 models currently available

unkel · 28-02-2018 11:27am

Buy out the lease? Not so sure if you can / at what cost. I don't have the details, but yes it is a very low cash entry point to longish range EV ownership. I'd think about it though and do a proper TCO once you are certain of the details about the lease.

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 11:36am

TCO is cheaper until 8 years of ownership. I only intend to keep this until my Model 3 (or CPO Model S with dual chargers and dual motor with AP) arrives. Probably 2 years at most for the model 3. Less for the S. Just sick of filling up with dino juice. Even in my Prius it's still >300 a month.

KCross · 28-02-2018 12:10pm

ELM327 wrote: »

10% per year depreciation from the initial cost for the battery and you can buy it out at end of lease from RCI?

Also.. do you know who to contact or how one would go about upgrading? I'm looking at Zoes in the 5-6k£ range so if it was 3k to upgrade that would represent a massive saving on the Q90 models currently available

I remember reading somewhere that the battery upgrade was like €9k if you owned the battery and maybe €5k if it was a lease and you also had to pay higher battery rental afterwards as well!!

And the big issue.... what do you do when its time to sell it? How do you offload the lease? Buying it out is likely to be expensive.

You need to thread carefully. The Zoe is not that popular here so it could be a harder sell than you think outside of the financial shenanigans and RCI etc.

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:16pm

I like the Zoe. But it's a bit pricey compared to the leaf here especially used. And it's a smaller class of car. It's very popular in mainland Europe though. Why is that?

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:17pm

Also it's only got two seat belts in the rear. I think.

ELM327 · 28-02-2018 12:28pm

Has 3 belts in the rear.
It's all about TCO really, I'll have to do the sums.

For me, with the network the way it is, a cheap Zoe, particularly one with a 3-4-5k upgrade to 41kWh possible, is the best way around the crappy network. If I can do 250-300km range on a 2 hour charge at work then I'll not need to use the public network at all. My commute is 120km round trip.

beauf · 28-02-2018 12:41pm

Total cost of ownership?

I'd like to see the figures you are thinking of.

I know from my current use that I rarely do long trips or fill up away from home. But I do occasionally need a splash and go when I forget to fill the car and need to go some somewhere and am stuck for time.

So when I do go electric I will rarely charge away from home but if I do a rapid charger would be very handy.

unkel · 28-02-2018 4:45pm

ELM327 wrote: »

My commute is 120km round trip.

If you have both home and work charging, then your Leaf 24kWh can easily do this even at the worst day of the year driving it hard?

goz83 · 03-03-2018 11:08am

unkel wrote: »

If you have both home and work charging, then your Leaf 24kWh can easily do this even at the worst day of the year driving it hard?

He got rid of the leaf

Mike9832 · 11-02-2019 11:29pm

2019 version looks interesting

400 km WLTP, 22 kw AC, 130bhp, 55kWh pack, 100 kw DC CCS... for 30k

Best value EV yet?

https://electrek.co/2019/02/11/renault-zoe-refresh-range-charging/

unkel · 11-02-2019 11:44pm

Interesting is right, although the article is vague about the price. It mentions 30k but doesn't specify what currency that is. Presumably EUR

It is also most likely the price before taxes and incentives. So in the case of Ireland you have to add €7k VAT and deduct €5k SEAI grant. A €32k supermini isn't exactly great value for money in my book while you can buy its sister car in petrol for just €10k (Dacia Sandero)

Mike9832 · 11-02-2019 11:51pm

unkel wrote: »

Interesting is right, although the article is vague about the price. It mentions 30k but doesn't specify what currency that is. Presumably EUR

It is also most likely the price before taxes and incentives. So in the case of Ireland you have to add €7k VAT and deduct €5k SEAI grant. A €32k supermini isn't exactly great value for money in my book while you can buy its sister car in petrol for just €10k (Dacia Sandero)

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

Current one is what 28k

26k with those specs would be competitive, it will have to be around that price if VW ID will be 28k

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/renault-zoe-2-2019-tout-savoir-sur-la-nouvelle-zoe-electrique-9620390.html

unkel · 12-02-2019 12:51am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

I don't see how as they put the number of 30k on it. That's just far too much for a small supermini. Even if it had a 500km range

beauf · 12-02-2019 8:58am

Mike9832 wrote: »

Seems to be suggesting it will be cheaper than current Zoe by about 2k

Current one is what 28k

26k with those specs would be competitive, it will have to be around that price if VW ID will be 28k

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/renault-zoe-2-2019-tout-savoir-sur-la-nouvelle-zoe-electrique-9620390.html

Seems unlikely price for the ID

liamog · 12-02-2019 9:28am

beauf wrote: »

Seems unlikely price for the ID

The number for the entry level ID Neo has been €25,000 for a long time now. The investment made in the platform means it has to be a volume play. I don't really think they'll sell many entry level models though.

samih · 12-02-2019 11:19am

Power increase to 95ish kW (=130 PS) from 68 or 80 kW sounds good too. I suspect that the car continues to have an active battery cooling too and this combined with reduced price sounds great.

More French competion on the way in form of 208/Corsa/DS3 from PSA will make sure the pricing and specs are compelling for the price.

KCross · 12-02-2019 12:34pm

liamog wrote: »

The number for the entry level ID Neo has been €25,000 for a long time now. The investment made in the platform means it has to be a volume play. I don't really think they'll sell many entry level models though.

Not in the context of Ireland it hasnt. €25k was just a currency conversion from $30k. From there journalists have just ran with that number.

The real indication is that VW said "equivalently spec'd diesel Golf".... they start at €27k here.

liamog · 12-02-2019 12:45pm

KCross wrote: »

Not in the context of Ireland it hasnt. €25k was just a currency conversion from $30k. From there journalists have just ran with that number.

The real indication is that VW said "equivalently spec'd diesel Golf".... they start at €27k here.

The original source for the under €25,000 figure was the German press, so not sure why they would then convert to dollars and back to Euro.

https://edison.handelsblatt.com/erleben/vw-startet-countdown-zur-grossen-elektro-offensive/23093964.html?ticket=ST-792145-1R4XEvEYqLaWEHyzzy4h-ap1

You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added.

KCross · 12-02-2019 1:03pm

liamog wrote: »

The original source for the under €25,000 figure was the German press, so not sure why they would then convert to dollars and back to Euro.

https://edison.handelsblatt.com/erleben/vw-startet-countdown-zur-grossen-elektro-offensive/23093964.html?ticket=ST-792145-1R4XEvEYqLaWEHyzzy4h-ap1

You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added.

Like every article around the pricing it always says "we believe" or "estimate" or "we heard from sources" etc. Even the article you posted says
"First VW ID .: Entry price below 25,000 euros?"

Why the question mark?

The reality is the press dont know. Its made up. We dont know either.

The only thing we do know is what VW have actually said which is "similar price to diesel Golf" which is €27k (minimum) here. Maybe it will be €25k in Germany or some other place but its unlikely, imo, to be €25k here based on what VW have actually said.

https://twitter.com/jstackmann/status/1070616748951515136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1070616748951515136&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theweek.co.uk%2Fhatchback%2F98554%2Fvolkswagen-VW-id-electric-hatchback-2020-prices-specs-range-UK-release-date-driven

Like you, I'll still keep my fingers crossed for a €25k Neo!

liamog · 12-02-2019 1:25pm

True, but it's still counters your claim that the target was a conversion from a $30,000 figure.

VW targeting a German base model at €25,000 sounds very plausible to me. The ID is a big platform play, so needs the volume to sell.

What do we think Renault will need to sell an updated Zoe 40 for to really start taking chunks out of the Clio market?

Mike9832 · 12-02-2019 1:27pm

liamog wrote: »

What do we think Renault will need to sell an updated Zoe 40 for to really start taking chunks out of the Clio market?

20k

If they can't do that with the 10k incentives ( that should be abolished pretty soon eg 20/21)

They might as well give up

12-02-2019 2:26pm

20 K ? most Sold in Ireland cost 15 K basic 1.2 petrols.

That's a hard sell for the Zoe but Zoe as with most electric cars is aimed at the diesel market.

It's easy to compare EV Golf to Diesel Golf, A high spec 184 HP DSG Golf can cost north of 40 K. Making it cheaper than the Egolf which costs a fraction to run.

You can compare the Leaf with the Diesel Pulsar etc.

The Ioniq with the i30 etc.

unkel · 12-02-2019 2:53pm

beauf wrote: »

Seems unlikely price for the ID

€25k was mentioned for the ID, so with Irish 23% VAT minus €5k grant should be around the €26k mark

More than I paid for Ioniq 2 years ago. Should be very possible (and indeed profitable) next year with the cheaper batteries VW is getting and the economies of scale of the worlds first truely mass produced EV.

KCross · 12-02-2019 3:45pm

liamog wrote: »

True, but it's still counters your claim that the target was a conversion from a $30,000 figure.

I've seen reports of $30k being quoted prior to your article, which is dated Sep '18, so I dont know if your article is the original source. And the two figures were suspiciously aligned currency wise at the time that the price came out.

It doesnt really matter which way the currency conversion was done. It is a speculative figure.

Did VW ever confirm €25k for any market?

As I said, the only confirmation I've ever seen is "diesel golf price".

Any references to €25k/$30k dont take into account any local taxes, incentives, customs etc.

It cant be €25k all over Europe and Paddy always pays more anyway.

liamog wrote: »

VW targeting a German base model at €25,000 sounds very plausible to me. The ID is a big platform play, so needs the volume to sell.

Possible but it would be against what VW themselves have said if it was €25k here... that was my original point.

I think we are roughly on the same page anyway with your edit:
"You are likely correct on €27k for Ireland though by the time out extra VAT is added."

unkel wrote: »

€25k was mentioned for the ID, so with Irish 23% VAT minus €5k grant should be around the €26k mark

More than I paid for Ioniq 2 years ago. Should be very possible (and indeed profitable) next year with the cheaper batteries VW is getting and the economies of scale of the worlds first truely mass produced EV.

I'll guess €28500 for bog standard. €30k if you want metallic. Basically very similar to entry level Leaf but a far better car and range, which will force Nissan to re-price.

unkel · 12-02-2019 4:02pm

Cheapest Golf diesel in Germany is €23,875 incl. VAT of 19%. Take that off, add Irish VAT of 23% and deduct our €5k SEAI grant minus the €4k German grant for EVs and we are talking €23.7k for the Neo. Nice

New Zoe, new wart?

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