Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

Guy:Incognito · 25-08-2017 10:24AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's one small difference. I don't know one woman who wants to be a priest...

I don't know any men that want to be priests.

Grayson · 25-08-2017 11:21AM

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically. The same goes for islam, buddhism and hinduism.
I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Widdershins · 25-08-2017 11:32AM

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically. The same goes for islam, buddhism and hinduism.
I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Relevance to us, I suppose. No other religion is now flourishing in the West as Islam is.

P. Breathnach · 25-08-2017 11:37AM

Add to the good points that Grayson makes the additional point that practices in many countries are often misrepresented in Western media.

I don't mean to suggest that they are not bad, because I share the viewpoint here that they cover the gamut from bad to barbaric.

What I mean is that some barbaric practices are unfairly blamed on Islam. Most particularly, FGM is practised in parts of Africa, and it has no foundation in the teachings of Islam, nor is it confined to Muslims.

Richard Hillman · 25-08-2017 11:39AM

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

There have been plenty of threads on the
Indian rapes. Start a new one if you like. Stop trying to deflect. Stop trying to muddy the waters. Stop trying to dearail the thread. Your derailing is a defense of the goings on

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

And remarkably the number that think that was is decreasing

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

It's literally in the scripture.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically.

?????????

The same goes for islam

Yeah we know. That's what we're talking about.

I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Their entire culture and legal system is based around their religion.

25-08-2017 11:50AM

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

Start one on hinduism/caste systems then.

topper75 · 25-08-2017 11:54AM

Donal55 wrote: »

Good auld Saudi, in charge of women's rights for the UN.

You couldn't make this sh1t up!

In a sick way, it was genius on the part of SA to insist on the role.

Like Elvis harassing Nixon for the drugs cop badge. Thought nobody would question why he was flying around with loads of pills.

We would be better off alright up here with less rather than more islam. Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who converted or even considered. I've observed tables with leaflets on O'Connell St. in both Dublin and Limerick but the attendees weren't getting much passing custom. You'd want to be crazy.

Widdershins · 25-08-2017 01:46PM

topper75 wrote: »

In a sick way, it was genius on the part of SA to insist on the role.

Like Elvis harassing Nixon for the drugs cop badge. Thought nobody would question why he was flying around with loads of pills.

We would be better off alright up here with less rather than more islam. Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who converted or even considered. I've observed tables with leaflets on O'Connell St. in both Dublin and Limerick but the attendees weren't getting much passing custom. You'd want to be crazy.

Funny that, I've seen them too. I remember a poster here claiming that proselytyzing is against the rules of Islam.
Which makes no sense when conquest is not against the rules at all.

Widdershins · 25-08-2017 01:50PM

Channel 4 (I think), have made a bizarre show glorifying ISIS..it only shows beheadings done to traitors to ISIS, no innocent journalists or anyone else, and there's a host of weird, laughably unrealistic characters like the gay ISIS recruit. One of te recruits has a Yazidi girlfriend. If you don't know what they do to Yazidi women, don't look it up unless you have a strong stomach.

jmayo · 25-08-2017 02:08PM

take everything wrote: »

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

Thread started at 00.39

6 posts in at 00.47 first "YEAH BUT" deflection whataboutery response.

And of course first port of call is the catholic church when you look around for comparisons to islam.

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes:

Christ on a bike.

FFS is this the best of what modern society has become, is this a product of our modern education ?
Someone calls out a backward misogynist archaic mindset, culture and belief system so someone else must find something bad about their own.
Except it turns out it is probably 1000 times less bad.

If this was the fooking mindset in the 1940s then hitler and his nazi regime would have been left power, well because, you know, the Soviets and stalin were slaughtering people as well, like. :rolleyes:

Mutant z · 25-08-2017 02:13PM

Islam is a medieval, savage , backwards and dangerous ideology it's no surprise at all about how it views women and yet we are still importing it to the western world.

4068ac1elhodqr · 25-08-2017 02:15PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Channel 4 (I think), have made a bizarre show glorifying ISIS..

That show while well produced, did receive very mixed reviews and they also refused to roll broadcast date back after the recent Spanish tragedy.

C4 also ran a news special on 'hate speech' on the day the news about the Newcastle gang was featuring as the lead story almost everywhere else.

OP's Morocco story, and Morocco itself seems to be fairly messed up country these days, it was only last week a group of circa 15 boys were treated for suspected rabies after 'intimate relations' with a donkey took place.

Donal55 · 25-08-2017 02:20PM

Lizbeth Deep Stepchildren wrote: »

That show while well produced, did receive very mixed reviews and they also refused to roll broadcast date back after the recent Spanish tragedy.

C4 also ran a news special on 'hate speech' on the day the news about the Newcastle gang was featuring as the lead story almost everywhere else.

OP's Morocco story, and Morocco itself seems to be fairly messed up country these days, it was only last week a group of circa 15 boys were treated for suspected rabies after 'intimate relations' with a donkey took place.

The Welsh and their sheep should watch themselves so.

And the Rossies!!!!

A Little Pony · 25-08-2017 02:25PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_H4jzbWFU

You have to laugh at the crowd reaction.

Also agree on Emma Barnett, I'd love a night with her. :angel:

Donal55 · 25-08-2017 02:26PM

jmayo wrote: »

Thread started at 00.39

6 posts in at 00.47 first "YEAH BUT" deflection whataboutery response.

And of course first port of call is the catholic church when you look around for comparisons

A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes:

Christ on a bike.

FFS is this the best of what modern society has become, is this a product of our modern education ?
Someone calls out a backward misogynist archaic mindset, culture and belief system so someone else must find something bad about their own.
Except it turns out it is probably 1000 times less bad.

If this was the fooking mindset in the 1940s then hitler and his nazi regime would have been left power, well because, you know, the Soviets and stalin were slaughtering people as well, like. :rolleyes:

Thread.....ends......with.......Godwin.

The_Kew_Tour · 25-08-2017 02:28PM

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

+1

Every religion should be just abolished from the state in the public eye at least. If people want go Mass or a Mosque that's ok but nothing that taxpayer/state pay for.

Women not being included in Catholic Church is medevial stuff is this day and age. Sadly women are still 2nd class citizens in many areas though, including here in certain things and that needs to change.

Yamanoto · 25-08-2017 03:11PM

I exchanged words with a Somali man in the centre of Frankfurt last year, after he'd called a young woman out walking her dog a slut as he passed by.

And therein lies the rub. Being a European is far more than attaining a right to settle and bagging yourself a passport. It's understanding who we are, how we've reached this point in our societal development, our shared understanding of the values & customs long held dear across the Continent & a respect for the secular rule of law and loyalty to the nation state.

The volume and rate at which immigration is taking place in Europe essentially means migrants never have the time or the inclination to attain an understanding of what European identity is. Rather than being allowed to acclimatise and assimilate over time, the sheer weight of numbers incentivises them to forever stay separate and exist as parallel communities.

The current open borders policy not only flies in the face of common sense, it's a recipe for real trouble for all who call this place home further down the line.

professore · 25-08-2017 03:29PM

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

jmayo · 25-08-2017 04:22PM

professore wrote: »

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

....

And would you mind telling us how many people you know who actually take what the bible says seriously ?

And even more so when you quote the Old Testament.

Then weigh that up against what proportion of muslims actually do take the koran and associated teaching pretty seriously.

How many countries have their legal system ruled by the bible where it says things, as you no doubt know, like about taking an eye for an eye.

Notice I said RULED by the Christian Bible, and not influenced by Christianity and Christian values.

Then compare to how many countries actually have some form of sharia law in place.

Here is another little thing to compare adherents to islam versus christian churches.

Would you care to name the christian churches where women are not allowed worship in the same room as men ?

Last time I was in a Catholic church, a Church of Ireland church and a Luteran church the men and women were allowed into the same place.

Maybe someone with more experiences of different types of christian worship can enlighten us which ones have the women all shoved in a separate room ?

What is really sad is how so called intelligent people are so fooking set on trying to find excuses for islam and most of it's adherents by scouring through the recesses of christian history and beliefs that almost everyone else in our modern world actually ignores.

It is akin to shouting about the crusades when anyone has a point about the Arab world and Middle East.

take everything · 25-08-2017 04:33PM

Op here again.
Part of the reason I posted this is because I have known very decent Muslim people.
In fact, one of the people I have in mind is someone who I would admire in terms of how he talks and conducts himself. Quiet, unassuming, intelligent, curious and someone I could see myself getting on well with. Someone i would "get" and who would "get" me.

Actually he is a former Muslim (he told me this after a very interesting conversation we had). He said he used to be a fully-fledged Muslim (as he described himself- "with the beard etc") and was really into its tenets but is now more akin to a non-believer. He didn't say he was an atheist and possibly retained some belief in a higher power. But all that stuff was definitely in his past.

He also confided to me how he was embarrassed at what such atrocities made him feel as a middle eastern person and how it affected how he thought others perceived him.

At the back of mind i still wonder how the residue of such a toxic ideology can affect someone like this. It's a tragedy that bright people like this could have their minds warped by this stuff at some point in their lives.

Every religion has its indoctrination (and every society and culture has if you want to extend the concept) but fundamental (or even less than fundamental Islam) seems particularly insidious. Sam Harris (admittedly a Jew and not unbiased) is convinced of its toxic effect.

Edit: it's people like the above former Muslim that make me get annoyed with leftists and their reflexive minimisation of this issue.
Here's this guy who knows about this and who has lived it willing to honestly look at this issue (he agreed it's largely about education) in stark contrast to triggered leftists (who i'm starting to believe more and more are just projecting their own unconscious racism anyway) shutting down any discussion.

Ulysses Gaze · 25-08-2017 04:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_H4jzbWFU

You have to laugh at the crowd reaction.

Also agree on Emma Barnett, I'd love a night with her. :angel:

But sure the Huffington Post wrote an article a year ago that said Muhammad was a feminist....

I guess marrying a 6 year old little girl and consumating said marriage when the little girl was 9 makes you a feminist in the warped minds of some of the Far-Left.

na1 · 25-08-2017 05:01PM

How can insurance companies like "its4women" or gym's like "Women's Fitness Gym" exist in an equal society?
How can the quotas for women in company's HQs or in EU parliament be justified in an equal society?
There is no such this as 'equality' in either Western or Middle East country.
One countries consider women as a sub-humans, others as either sub-humans, or super-humans.

na1 · 25-08-2017 05:14PM

How many countries have their legal system ruled by the bible where it says things, as you no doubt know, like about taking an eye for an eye.

Ireland: abortion - criminal offence, Blasphemy law , Polygamy - criminal offence.

topper75 · 25-08-2017 05:15PM

take everything wrote: »

Part of the reason I posted this is because I have known very decent Muslim people.

I never had a beef with them. They are just people like me.

I can't stand that ideology though and will strive to keep it down here in our country, as should we all. It offers no good to Ireland.

Ipso · 25-08-2017 05:19PM

This case from a while back really shows the ugliness of attitude. People like this can't be reasoned with and no wishy washy comparisons to how religion influences certain things in Ireland doesn't cut it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case

BillyBobBS · 25-08-2017 05:24PM

All religion is sky fairy nonsense but Islam takes the biscuit. I see absolutely zero good in it.

na1 · 25-08-2017 05:24PM

Ipso wrote: »

This case from a while back really shows the ugliness of attitude. People like this can't be reasoned with and no wishy washy comparisons to how religion influences certain things in Ireland doesn't cut it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case

What is the difference, between:

court also sentenced the two victims to six months in prison and 90 lashes each for "being alone with a man who is not a relative" in a parked car.

And:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-26799519.html

Twenty-one men -- aged from 23 to 67 -- pleaded guilty in Limerick District Court yesterday to soliciting or importuning female garda officers for the purpose of prostitution.

Benjamin Buttons · 25-08-2017 05:29PM

...not forgetting our grandmothers and mothers-in-law too.

Ipso · 25-08-2017 05:36PM

na1 wrote: »

What is the difference, between:

And:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-26799519.html

Maybe you could conduct an experiment, go to Saudi Arabia and get into a situation like that woman.
Now, did you ask that question because you really are trying to defend this or because you can't side with people in an argument that you normally disagree with?

Donald Trump · 25-08-2017 07:01PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

I exchanged words with a Somali man in the centre of Frankfurt last year, after he'd called a young woman out walking her dog a slut as he passed by.

O.
M.
G.

Did you just assume that persons country of origin and gender?

(and maybe he knew yer wan and her extreme self-destructive proclivities towards casual relationships and was trying to give her some help)

Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

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