Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

jackofalltrades

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Poor child this shouldn't be allowed
https://twitter.com/djack_journo/status/901943397023350784

I read this an thought it had to be fake news, but it actually happened. :eek:
Who thought it was a good idea to place a child in the care of these people.
It's bad enough we have people living amonst us who hate us, our way of life and have no interest in ever integrating.
But to give them children to indoctrinate is just insane.
No real surprise to see that Tower Hamlets council was involved.

darkdubh

Only about an hour ago there was a documentary on BBC4 about when the muslim Moors ruled Spain. In some ways they were quite progressive but they also used to capture and traffic European women and children into Spain as concubines. Blond women were especially sought after.

jmayo

AlekSmart wrote: »

The issue is not the availability of "Education" to female muslims,but the nature of that "Education".

Some posters earlier in thread,came close to establishing the link that enabled the enlightenment of our native Catholic population,and it was the free availability of Education-pure'n simple.

Once the seed is planted,it will expand within any given religious mindset,allowing hitherto unchallenged fundamentals to be robustly challenged.

However,as we can see with Muslim Education in particular,the established Leadership has put down it's markers in terms of what will be permitted in Irish Muslim Schools,and that line will NOT be crossed.

The likes of Imam Hawala and Ali Selim have been very clear as to the amount of Western influence they are prepared to allow into the area of Muslim education (particularly female education).

These lads know damn well,that their handy number is up once their flock get to the broader level of education made possible by modern Western Society,so one can hardly be surprised when the wagons are circled long in advance of the issue.

There is a bit of fly in this argument.
The preponderance of young people, men especially but also some young girls, who have been educated in the West and often to a third level degree, who have then flocked to the likes of ISIS is quiet scary.

It is not alone enough to educate people in Western educational systems, it is also incumbent on authorities to remove preachers of hate who have access to people through religious institutions and especially in places like prisons.

darkdubh wrote: »

Only about an hour ago there was a documentary on BBC4 about when the muslim Moors ruled Spain. In some ways they were quite progressive but they also used to capture and traffic European women and children into Spain as concubines. Blond women were especially sought after.

That was around the same time islam last had some truly enlightened thinking.

old_aussie

professore wrote: »

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

The bible might be, but in western democracies that are predominately Christian you don't have to live by the bibles rules, where as in Islamic countries you live by the islamic rules.

islamic religion and law are one and the same.

Snake Plisken

Good news for that child judge has made a ruling that she should live with her grandmother. That the child should be in a culturally matched foster placement but aparantly there was none at the time.

Spider Web

professore wrote: »

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

You always laugh? Jayz you're easily amused!

Do they also say to you that the bible isn't as bad?

I'm not sure it's being argued here that the bible isn't as bad, but what international movement is there based on the old testament which is the equivalent of that based on islamic fundamentalism?

Divelment

take everything wrote: »

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

Jesus Christ are you blind or something?!? You are talking about a religion that instructs women to submit to it and wear a costume that covers up their entire appearance and treats men as superior to women, interestingly though, these rules that are applied to women, are not applied to men! In Islam, women are subordinate to men. But we tolerate this discrimination because to say that a woman does not have the right to choose to be treated in a discriminatory way, is hey, discriminatory!

I firmly believe that adherence to Islam is actually a disease of the mind. Allah comes first and everything else doesn't really matter, this is a close to the definition of mind disease that I think you could find.

But I can't understand how you find it surprising when we welcome people from such utterly backward cultures here into the EU, that then shock horror, we find that women are raped by an assumed right of the rapist and all this hassle kicks off...

Divelment

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Good news for that child judge has made a ruling that she should live with her grandmother. That the child should be in a culturally matched foster placement but aparantly there was none at the time.

If you scratched behind the surface in Ireland you will find that the exact same thing is happening here. I have a friend who is a carer/Home Help, she works for a company that is subcontracted by the HSE to provide care to the elderly and also the not so elderly with serious conditions like MS and Motor Neuron Disease who need a home help. The stories she has told me of clients who are completely distressed after someone from a "different culture" turned up to care for them and won't even speak to them, (poor English), handled them roughly, basically just turned up to clock in and clock out, and put in the minimum effort in terms of the job they had to do, and I know it's not an easy job but seriously, you might be the only person that that person interacts with all day, is it too much to ask to be a human and interact with them and talk?

FTA69

old_aussie wrote: »

The bible might be, but in western democracies that are predominately Christian you don't have to live by the bibles rules, where as in Islamic countries you live by the islamic rules.

islamic religion and law are one and the same.

Not necessarily, the notion of Islam being the sole legal basis for a state is a relatively recent development in many places around the world.

For years, places like Algeria, Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq etc were governed by secular, nationalist regimes (of various degrees to the left or the right) and the societies of those countries generally reflected that. Things like the niqab and this ultra-adherence to Salafi schools of Islam used to be practically non-existent in places like Turkey and North Africa.

This secularism is under threat in many of these countries nowadays, and Islamic countries are generally becoming more conservative - but the notion that Muslims are incapable of having a state not governed by Islamic theology isn't the case at all, and you don't have to look too far back to see that.

FTA69

darkdubh wrote: »

Only about an hour ago there was a documentary on BBC4 about when the muslim Moors ruled Spain. In some ways they were quite progressive but they also used to capture and traffic European women and children into Spain as concubines. Blond women were especially sought after.

Not so long after the Reconquista the Spanish and Portuguese were exterminating American Indians and enslaving Africans to replace them so I wouldn't be taking moral high ground on the 15th century morality of Arabs and Europeans.

Red_Wake

FTA69 wrote: »

darkdubh wrote: »

Only about an hour ago there was a documentary on BBC4 about when the muslim Moors ruled Spain. In some ways they were quite progressive but they also used to capture and traffic European women and children into Spain as concubines. Blond women were especially sought after.

Not so long after the Reconquista the Spanish and Portuguese were exterminating American Indians and enslaving Africans to replace them so I wouldn't be taking moral high ground on the 15th century morality of Arabs and Europeans.

What is your preferred ordering of the hierarchy of historical genocide/slavery?

FTA69

Red_Wake wrote: »

What is your preferred ordering of the hierarchy of historical genocide/slavery?

I don't get what you mean. I'm just saying that suggesting Islamic slavery in the 15th Century doesn't make them somehow morally inferior to the Europeans who were doing the exact same thing only on a larger scale. Is that wrong or something?

Snake Plisken

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't get what you mean. I'm just saying that suggesting Islamic slavery in the 15th Century doesn't make them somehow morally inferior to the Europeans who were doing the exact same thing only on a larger scale. Is that wrong or something?

At least Europeans where tough back then and drove the Moro's back out of Europe.
Then again you have Muslims enslaving white vulnerable girls in the U.K. So they seem to be still stuck in their backwards ways!

DEFTLEFTHAND

Snake Plisken wrote: »

At least Europeans where tough back then and drove the Moro's back out of Europe.
Then again you have Muslims enslaving white vulnerable girls in the U.K. So they seem to be still stuck in their backwards ways!

Barbary Slave Trade rarely gets spoken about for some reason.

Even Ireland was touched by it. 'The Sack of Baltimore' in west Cork.

Lasted for 300 years and it's estimated that 1.25 million Europeans were captured and enslaved during this time.

Zebra3

Snake Plisken wrote: »

At least Europeans where tough back then and drove the Moro's back out of Europe.
Then again you have Muslims enslaving white vulnerable girls in the U.K. So they seem to be still stuck in their backwards ways!

Don't forget about the white Irish Catholics enslaving white Irish women with the backing of the Irish state and police force.

Or the police force here failing to prosecute members of the Catholic Church who moved rapist priests about to give them fresh victims.

We're not as advances as you think.

We even let American war planes stop off here on their way to committing war crimes in the Middle East.

Snake Plisken

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't forget about the white Irish Catholics enslaving white Irish women with the backing of the Irish state and police force.

Or the police force here failing to prosecute members of the Catholic Church who moved rapist priests about to give them fresh victims.

We're not as advances as you think.

We even let American war planes stop off here on their way to committing war crimes in the Middle East.

You do understand the concept of "the past" do you?
You do understand that the Grooming is an ongoing issue in the UK, but hey you give it a pass because They are Muslim it's their culture!

end of the road

Snake Plisken wrote: »

You do understand the concept of "the past" do you?

it's not that far in the past.

Snake Plisken wrote: »

You do understand that the Grooming is an ongoing issue in the UK, but hey you give it a pass because They are Muslim it's their culture!

really? it's their culture? got any proof of that or is it your usual hysterical nonsense?
also, can you provide proof that zebra gave grooming a pass or is this more of your hysterical nonsense?

Snake Plisken

end of the road wrote: »

it's not that far in the past.



really? it's their culture? got any proof of that or is it your usual hysterical nonsense?
also, can you provide proof that zebra gave grooming a pass or is this more of your hysterical nonsense?

Yippee it's the Halawa fanboy of Boards! How goes the Muslim Brotherhood European Headquarters out in Clonskeagh?
Do they still make the women prey upstairs segregated from the men? Very inclusive!

The_Kew_Tour

A lot of you must really really really hate Germans still after WW2

A Little Pony

skylight1987 wrote: »

As a woman who has grown up in the west ,my friends and I often joke that we would be killed stone dead if we were in any muslim country because we were raised to speak or minds and have confidence as women, while also never being cheap or slutty and always maintaining our dignity but the sad reality is there seems to be no protection for any woman in a muslim country if your out spoken your killed and dignity and covering up don't prevent rape

Women's rights in the Muslim world go together like oil and water. People like Linda Sarsour are traitors to women who want equal rights alongside men in Muslim countries and throughout the world.

A Little Pony

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't forget about the white Irish Catholics enslaving white Irish women with the backing of the Irish state and police force.

Or the police force here failing to prosecute members of the Catholic Church who moved rapist priests about to give them fresh victims.

We're not as advances as you think.

We even let American war planes stop off here on their way to committing war crimes in the Middle East.

You do understand the concept of "the past" do you?
You do understand that the Grooming is an ongoing issue in the UK, but hey you give it a pass because They are Muslim it's their culture!

Also that time in Ireland would seem like a huge improvement to millions of Muslim women throughout the world. Let's not kid ourselves, it has never been as horrific here as it is in the Muslim world for women, many reasons for that, Islam being the main factor.

CalamariFritti

No one should be treated as being lesser in any way than the next person. But there is a bit of hypocrisy going on when we discuss societies that are a bit behind on that front. It is right to criticise them and try to help them to see their wrong way and develop in the right direction, but we mustn't go all high and mighty and moral high ground and all that. Because its hardly a generation or two ago when women were second class citizens amongst ourselves. Its not like we're all enlightened for the last 500 years or so.

Snake Plisken

CalamariFritti wrote: »

No one should be treated as being lesser in any way than the next person. But there is a bit of hypocrisy going on when we discuss societies that are a bit behind on that front. It is right to criticise them and try to help them to see their wrong way and develop in the right direction, but we mustn't go all high and mighty and moral high ground and all that. Because its hardly a generation or two ago when women were second class citizens amongst ourselves. Its not like we're all enlightened for the last 500 years or so.

What so your saying because they are a different religion and way of life we should just give them a pass on the way they threat women?
Really it should be look this is our society and this is way we treat women here in this country we expect you to follow the same freedoms you don't like it immigrate to a strict Muslim country that suits your way of life!

end of the road

A Little Pony wrote: »

Also that time in Ireland would seem like a huge improvement to millions of Muslim women throughout the world. Let's not kid ourselves, it has never been as horrific here as it is in the Muslim world for women, many reasons for that, Islam being the main factor.

i would suggest a woman being imprisoned, enslaved, beaten constantly, having their child stolen from them and possibly sold off or adopted, all because they dared to get pregnant out of wedlock would be not far off as horrifying as some of the stuff caried out in muslim countries.

Snake Plisken wrote: »

What so your saying because they are a different religion and way of life we should just give them a pass on the way they threat women?

twisting and making up things again. such was never once stated by anyone.

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Really it should be look this is our society and this is way we treat women here in this country we expect you to follow the same freedoms you don't like it immigrate to a strict Muslim country that suits your way of life!

that is how it is currently. the laws are all ready implemented, government have to pay for the staff to enforce them and it's up to the electorate to force them to do so.

Spider Web

end of the road wrote: »

i would suggest a woman being imprisoned, enslaved, beaten constantly, having their child stolen from them and possibly sold off or adopted, all because they dared to get pregnant out of wedlock would be not far off as horrifying as some of the stuff caried out in muslim countries.

I would too. It wasn't normal life for most women though - life was still usually a lot better for women like our mothers and grandmothers than life is for women in hardline islamist societies.

CalamariFritti

Snake Plisken wrote: »

What so your saying because they are a different religion and way of life we should just give them a pass on the way they threat women?
Really it should be look this is our society and this is way we treat women here in this country we expect you to follow the same freedoms you don't like it immigrate to a strict Muslim country that suits your way of life!

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Of course anyone living in a different place to their own should adopt to whatever the rules are where they are living now. I assume most people coming from other places to our places come for that very reason. To escape the places they come from and enjoy the privileges and liberties and quality of life that our societies have over theirs. I would imagine very few come here to be a**holes, take advantage and try to impose their rules.

But back in those places that seem backward to us. They will have to find their own ways and their own pace of ridding themselves of their shackles. We can hardly go and invade them and tell them to live by our rules. That would only create resentment and achieve the exact opposite I imagine.

CalamariFritti

Spider Web wrote: »

"A bit" behind in terms of how women are treated?

Also, hypocrisy would only come into it if the critics were also abusing/subjugating women. How does coming from the same country in which women were abused/subjugated before we were born somehow make us complicit?

We can be critical of both anyway, which most are.

But this collective responsibility thing simply because of nationality - and not even the same generation: it's deemed racism if applied to other countries so I don't see why we need to apply it to ourselves.

'A bit' in terms of time. 50 or 100 years is only a bit in human history. Other than that you're right of course. It would only be hypocrisy if we were still doing it, fair enough.

Snake Plisken

end of the road wrote: »

i would suggest a woman being imprisoned, enslaved, beaten constantly, having their child stolen from them and possibly sold off or adopted, all because they dared to get pregnant out of wedlock would be not far off as horrifying as some of the stuff caried out in muslim countries.



twisting and making up things again. such was never once stated by anyone.



that is how it is currently. the laws are all ready implemented, government have to pay for the staff to enforce them and it's up to the electorate to force them to do so.

You always seem to avoid the Halawa/MB question I wonder why?

end of the road

Snake Plisken wrote: »

You always seem to avoid the Halawa/MB question I wonder why?

because it's not relevant to the thread and the answer you want to be the answer isn't the answer.

Roger Hassenforder

end of the road wrote: »

i would suggest a woman being imprisoned, enslaved, beaten constantly, having their child stolen from them and possibly sold off or adopted, all because they dared to get pregnant out of wedlock would be not far off as horrifying as some of the stuff caried out in muslim countries.

I've looked in Google, Bing, Yahoo. Even webcrawler, but I can't find anyone being stoned to death or gang raped and killed in an "honour killing" in Ireland...