Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

take everything

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

MightyMandarin

I can see this thread being one of nothing but rational and reasonable discussion throughout.

Leogirl

This should be fun!!

Bogfairy

Anyone who sees women as second class citizens is an absolute scutther burnt ar5ehole of the highest order

charlie_says

take everything wrote: »

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

Disgusting sexist comments. How dare you.

emo72

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

Ipso

Not as bad as the West/HandMaidensTalistan.

take everything

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I can see this thread being one of nothing but rational and reasonable discussion throughout.

I'm only interested in how such attitudes to women develop. It's like the elephant in the room. I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

50% of the population are treated appallingly from what I can see.
I'm interested in honest views from all sides of the spectrum. Annoying that the first response is that this can't be discussed rationally and honestly without it descending into a trainwreck.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Ipso

take everything wrote: »

I'm only interested in how such attitudes to women develop. It's like the elephant in the room. I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

50% of the population are treated appallingly from what I can see.
I'm interested in honest views from all sides of the spectrum. Annoying that the first response is that this can't be discussed rationally and honestly without it descending into a trainwreck.

As societies modernize/change/develop one of the most noticeable things is the role of women; how they dress, more active in workplaces, politics etc
Some of the stone age attitude may be a way to avoid change.

Noveight

One man wrote on Facebook that “I condemn the act but cover yourselves up, this one was easy to undress.”

I condemn the act but...

Ipso

Noveight wrote: »

I condemn the act but...

The good old "she was asking for it".

MightyMandarin

take everything wrote: »

I'm trying to think of something similar in another culture that is so off psychologically and it's hard to think of another example.

In Germany it's common to drink tea without milk. I lived there for a year and I can say I still have nightmares of mates drinking cup after cup of disgusting black tea.

Your Face

take everything wrote: »

(I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

Probably and probably not.

emo72

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

You equate that with gang rape?

Seriously?

Here's one small difference. I don't know one woman who wants to be a priest...

Irish Guitarist

I remember a couple of years ago one of the moderators of the Islam forum posted a thread about when it's okay to hit your wife. I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce. There are also people explaining how in court if you have female witnesses you need two of them for their testimony to be equal to that of one mans.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055198196

Atlantic Dawn

It's their culture.

eviltwin

Islam is extreme and its worrying that so many people from Western backgrounds convert. If you are born and bred in a middle eastern country and all you have is experience of women as second class citizens then its no surprise that attitude continues, its people growing up in a culture where everyone is considered equal who convert that are a surprise to me. Although Western Muslims aren't of that mindset its still a faith that has old fashioned views about the roles of men and women but then you can say that about any faith really. Look at how Catholicism has treated women over the years, look at its current attitudes to women's role and its attitude to gay people and yet people embrace it and don't see it as a problem.

Teyla Emmagan

I'm just eternally grateful not to have been born in one of these places. Look at India, the endless stories about the rape of women coming out of there would turn your hair white. And then if she complains you throw battery acid in her face. One 17 year old had her hand lopped off yesterday for "rejecting a suitor". You are living under constant threat unless you're a man. It must be like feeling you are in a war zone all your life. All these men who think they are entitled to sex.

The attitudes are beyond me. Ireland is a friggin Utopia in comparison.

vicwatson

OP, you forgot to say that 6 teenagers have been arrested and there is widespread condemnation of the attack in Morocco, the girl was a mentally challenged girl which make her even more vunerable, digusting behaviour no matter what

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/morocco-mass-sit-in-protest-sexual-assault-woman-bus-teenage-boys-casablanca-a7908241.html

No excuse for it no matter what, they are pure neanderthals.

Donal55

Good auld Saudi, in charge of women's rights for the UN.

You couldn't make this sh1t up!

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's their culture.

Prophet's a paedophile.

Richard Hillman

Societies around the world are all modernizing and changing to be more inclusive of females.........except one. One culture is remarkably regressing.

There is a consensus between more ignorant and uneducated right-on types that the Islamic World will come onside within a generation or two. When in fact it was a generation or two when the were nearly on a level playing field. We have taken 2 steps forward and they have taken 6-7 steps backward.

Media types won't call it out either. They are under some crazed illusion that it has always been like that. Or at least try and portray it that way.

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt and many more have dived dramatically backwards for woman over the last 50 years. Indonesia and Malaysia are starting to catch too.

MightyMandarin

MightyMandarin wrote: »

In Germany it's common to drink tea without milk. I lived there for a year and I can say I still have nightmares of mates drinking cup after cup of disgusting black tea.

Ha, i love tea without milk. Funny world

fyfe79

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt and many more have dived dramatically backwards for woman over the last 50 years. Indonesia and Malaysia are starting to catch too.

True. Massive regression in those countries. It has to be noted though that western foreign policy (the US in particular) must have contributed to this, at least indirectly. Clandestine overthrowing of modern socialist leaders and filling the power vacuum with despots has led to an increase in anti-western feeling in these areas of the world. And what better way to display this than to essentially enact a form of anti-feminism and subjugate women.

Still, the lefties would have you believe that everything will be grand in the next generation. It's always grand, isn't it? Nice.

Donald Trump

Something something wall something Mexico paying something

suicide_circus

Donald Trump wrote: »

Something something wall something Mexico paying something

Change the record, Donald

Samaris

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce.

How..why..what?

How do you even beat someone with a toothbrush? "That's a toothbrush. Am I to take it from your poking me that you want a divorce?"

??

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Prophet's a paedophile.

Just to comment on that, by the same regard Joseph was a paedophile, since Mary is traditionally held to be a young teenager. And I dread you finding out that thirteen or fourteen was a common age for girls to be married off throughout our history. Upper class girls could be married off even sooner for alliances or property. I'm afraid a good portion of your male ancestors were paedophiles or at the least hebephiles if that makes you feel better.

That aside.

One of the worst aspects is that women in a few Islamic countries actually did have a decent share of rights before the latest round of fundamentalist revolutions. The punishments are extremely harsh though and it is hard to fight back against it from within. People do; Malala Yousafezi is a shining example, despite the punishment that those in charge felt wanting education mandated. There are others; you don't hear about feminism in these places because it's far away and doesn't get much coverage (plus it could be deadly to those actually working on the ground).

Womens rights tend to be gained despite religion rather than because of it. Western society regularly used religious reasoning to suppress women as well, but fortunately, a move towards keeping state and religion separate has helped to emancipate western women. That has not held true in many Islamic states yet. Mind you, we had to have centuries of bloody fighting to sort that out, and it is quite possible that Islam in general needs a reformation. Christianity updated itself through reformation and factions (and fighting). Judaism tends to quietly update itself in the background, not least as until very recently, Jews didn't really get the option to go enforcing their own more extremist views on anyone. Islam has managed the factioning part pretty well, but seems to making slow going on any sort of reform.

Given women have had rights before and were working towards gaining equality* religion or not, it is the fundamentalists that are the problem - same as in most religions. Religion is ridiculously easy to subvert - primarily because it gains its authority through an invisible higher power and cleaves to the words in holy books rather than the message. I do believe we would see similar (within our own laws) attitudes if fundamentalists were allowed to win power in - well, the US is probably the best example of large-scale religious western fundamentalism. Civil rights are fragile and can be removed. Most western states, fortunately, have safeguards in place, but they are not absolute either. This is why people are raging, for instance, about white supremacists.

I absolutely acknowledge that the religious books of Islam propagate anti-women attitudes. I also acknowledge that the fundamentalist leaders base their prejudices on backup from the Koran, use it as a weapon or for control, however you want to put it. However, it cannot be used as the sole excuse and reason (bar that people are afraid of Muslims in general at the moment) because we have seen freedom in these states, and because we had many of the same messages in our holy books and still managed to undo centuries of disrespect and oppression. We started off in a better place though - civil war and turmoil in many Islamic countries is pretty difficult to work with.

This is what fundamentalists do. They are rigid and fixed in their ideas at the extreme ends of whatever argument they pick. Their ideas tend to be unpopular outside a strictly homogenous population (which the ideals generally benefit for support). Fundamentalists do seek to reduce the power of other actors if they feel they can't trust them to empower their fundamentalist notions. Islam is culturally dangerous because of the fundamentalists currently pushing their brand of malevolence. And because it's a religion and religions are abusable by the corrupt and intolerant.

It would also be nice if the west would stop holding up Saudi Arabia, who are as big a bunch of muckstirrers in the Middle East as Russia is in the west.


*Albeit behind other cultures and I don't think that any Islamic country had equality in the same way that secular western states had achieved. Mind you, we got started "early", if a century ago counts as "early" in our general history.

Donald Trump

Samaris wrote: »

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I can't find that thread but here's an older one with similar comments including one that explains a man can only beat his wife as a last resort with a small object like a toothbrush to tell her he wants a divorce.

 
How..why..what?

How do you even beat someone with a toothbrush? "That's a toothbrush. Am I to take it from your poking me that you want a divorce?"

??

You laugh now. I don't know if there's any truth to the unsubstantiated rumour that Chris Evan's turned muslim and his wife similarly laughed



She's not laughing now I tell ya....... But that might alternately be because she realized that she married a ginger

Witchie

I'm living in Malaysia at the moment and the fact that it is an Islamic country is only apparent to me by the "non-halal" meat shops in supermarkets and the price of alcohol. Sure there are a lot of women wearing the veil but also many that aren't. Things are apparently going in the wrong direction but that, in turn, is igniting a counter-movement so it will be interesting to see how things develop in the coming months.

Women's march in September

Ubbquittious

vicwatson wrote: »

OP, you forgot to say that 6 teenagers have been arrested and there is widespread condemnation of the attack in Morocco, the girl was a mentally challenged girl which make her even more vunerable, digusting behaviour no matter what

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/morocco-mass-sit-in-protest-sexual-assault-woman-bus-teenage-boys-casablanca-a7908241.html

No excuse for it no matter what, they are pure neanderthals.

No need to be besmirching the neanderthals' good name by comparing them to these boys

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's one small difference. I don't know one woman who wants to be a priest...

I don't know any men that want to be priests.

Grayson

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically. The same goes for islam, buddhism and hinduism.
I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically. The same goes for islam, buddhism and hinduism.
I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Relevance to us, I suppose. No other religion is now flourishing in the West as Islam is.

P. Breathnach

Add to the good points that Grayson makes the additional point that practices in many countries are often misrepresented in Western media.

I don't mean to suggest that they are not bad, because I share the viewpoint here that they cover the gamut from bad to barbaric.

What I mean is that some barbaric practices are unfairly blamed on Islam. Most particularly, FGM is practised in parts of Africa, and it has no foundation in the teachings of Islam, nor is it confined to Muslims.

Richard Hillman

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

There have been plenty of threads on the
Indian rapes. Start a new one if you like. Stop trying to deflect. Stop trying to muddy the waters. Stop trying to dearail the thread. Your derailing is a defense of the goings on

I mention this because I don't like equating a religion with this activity. There are plenty of muslims, especially in the western world, who do not think or act like this.

And remarkably the number that think that was is decreasing

I do believe in some parts of the world there are horrific cultures. I think generally in those cultures religion is twisted to meet the desires of the people.

It's literally in the scripture.

There are many places where christianity is practised barbarically.

?????????

The same goes for islam

Yeah we know. That's what we're talking about.

I think religion more often reflects a culture than the other way round.

Their entire culture and legal system is based around their religion.

Omackeral

Grayson wrote: »

How come these threads are always about islam? You hear feck all about hinduism and it's castes. Or the gang rapes in India.

Start one on hinduism/caste systems then.

topper75

Donal55 wrote: »

Good auld Saudi, in charge of women's rights for the UN.

You couldn't make this sh1t up!

In a sick way, it was genius on the part of SA to insist on the role.

Like Elvis harassing Nixon for the drugs cop badge. Thought nobody would question why he was flying around with loads of pills.

We would be better off alright up here with less rather than more islam. Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who converted or even considered. I've observed tables with leaflets on O'Connell St. in both Dublin and Limerick but the attendees weren't getting much passing custom. You'd want to be crazy.

Widdershins

topper75 wrote: »

In a sick way, it was genius on the part of SA to insist on the role.

Like Elvis harassing Nixon for the drugs cop badge. Thought nobody would question why he was flying around with loads of pills.

We would be better off alright up here with less rather than more islam. Maybe I live in a bubble but I don't know anyone who converted or even considered. I've observed tables with leaflets on O'Connell St. in both Dublin and Limerick but the attendees weren't getting much passing custom. You'd want to be crazy.

Funny that, I've seen them too. I remember a poster here claiming that proselytyzing is against the rules of Islam.
Which makes no sense when conquest is not against the rules at all.

Widdershins

Channel 4 (I think), have made a bizarre show glorifying ISIS..it only shows beheadings done to traitors to ISIS, no innocent journalists or anyone else, and there's a host of weird, laughably unrealistic characters like the gay ISIS recruit. One of te recruits has a Yazidi girlfriend. If you don't know what they do to Yazidi women, don't look it up unless you have a strong stomach.

jmayo

take everything wrote: »

Just watching BBC news night with the lovely* Emma Barnett and yet another story of a gang-rape of a woman in Morocco in broad daylight that was filmed and posted on social media.

Apparently in this country before 2014 a rapist could avoid prosecution if they then married the victim (I may have that wrong and am open to correction).

But the attitudes to women in North African/middle eastern/Islamic culture never ceases to utterly baffle me.

The idea that a woman is to blame in rape (and can be punished or killed for being raped) is mind-bendingly sick. It's so insanely removed from any sort of logic or rationality, I don't know where to start to even try to understand the possible basis for these attitudes.

What is wrong with these people.
Are women truly seen as either subhuman or property in these cultures.

I can only begin to imagine how people with such attitudes see Western women. They must see them as the devil incarnate and presumably want them killed for being any way emancipated.

Anyone with any insights into the psychology behind such cultures and these attitudes to women. It seems to be a huge problem (and largely untouched by feminism- a shocking indictment in itself).

* I make no apologies for thinking Emma Barnett is lovely.

Thread started at 00.39

6 posts in at 00.47 first "YEAH BUT" deflection whataboutery response.

And of course first port of call is the catholic church when you look around for comparisons to islam.

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes:

Christ on a bike.

FFS is this the best of what modern society has become, is this a product of our modern education ?
Someone calls out a backward misogynist archaic mindset, culture and belief system so someone else must find something bad about their own.
Except it turns out it is probably 1000 times less bad.

If this was the fooking mindset in the 1940s then hitler and his nazi regime would have been left power, well because, you know, the Soviets and stalin were slaughtering people as well, like. :rolleyes:

Mutant z

Islam is a medieval, savage , backwards and dangerous ideology it's no surprise at all about how it views women and yet we are still importing it to the western world.

4068ac1elhodqr

Widdershins wrote: »

Channel 4 (I think), have made a bizarre show glorifying ISIS..

That show while well produced, did receive very mixed reviews and they also refused to roll broadcast date back after the recent Spanish tragedy.

C4 also ran a news special on 'hate speech' on the day the news about the Newcastle gang was featuring as the lead story almost everywhere else.

OP's Morocco story, and Morocco itself seems to be fairly messed up country these days, it was only last week a group of circa 15 boys were treated for suspected rabies after 'intimate relations' with a donkey took place.

Donal55

Lizbeth Deep Stepchildren wrote: »

That show while well produced, did receive very mixed reviews and they also refused to roll broadcast date back after the recent Spanish tragedy.

C4 also ran a news special on 'hate speech' on the day the news about the Newcastle gang was featuring as the lead story almost everywhere else.

OP's Morocco story, and Morocco itself seems to be fairly messed up country these days, it was only last week a group of circa 15 boys were treated for suspected rabies after 'intimate relations' with a donkey took place.

The Welsh and their sheep should watch themselves so.









And the Rossies!!!!

A Little Pony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_H4jzbWFU

You have to laugh at the crowd reaction.

Also agree on Emma Barnett, I'd love a night with her. :angel:

Donal55

jmayo wrote: »

Thread started at 00.39

6 posts in at 00.47 first "YEAH BUT" deflection whataboutery response.

And of course first port of call is the catholic church when you look around for comparisons


A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes:

Christ on a bike.

FFS is this the best of what modern society has become, is this a product of our modern education ?
Someone calls out a backward misogynist archaic mindset, culture and belief system so someone else must find something bad about their own.
Except it turns out it is probably 1000 times less bad.

If this was the fooking mindset in the 1940s then hitler and his nazi regime would have been left power, well because, you know, the Soviets and stalin were slaughtering people as well, like. :rolleyes:

Thread.....ends......with.......Godwin.

The_Kew_Tour

emo72 wrote: »

its wrong. why should women be treated as less than men. its bull****. same in catholic church, women cant be priests, its bull****. its bull**** no matter what religion it is. does your religion treat women as second class citizens? then its bull****.

+1

Every religion should be just abolished from the state in the public eye at least. If people want go Mass or a Mosque that's ok but nothing that taxpayer/state pay for.

Women not being included in Catholic Church is medevial stuff is this day and age. Sadly women are still 2nd class citizens in many areas though, including here in certain things and that needs to change.

Yamanoto

I exchanged words with a Somali man in the centre of Frankfurt last year, after he'd called a young woman out walking her dog a slut as he passed by.

And therein lies the rub. Being a European is far more than attaining a right to settle and bagging yourself a passport. It's understanding who we are, how we've reached this point in our societal development, our shared understanding of the values & customs long held dear across the Continent & a respect for the secular rule of law and loyalty to the nation state.

The volume and rate at which immigration is taking place in Europe essentially means migrants never have the time or the inclination to attain an understanding of what European identity is. Rather than being allowed to acclimatise and assimilate over time, the sheer weight of numbers incentivises them to forever stay separate and exist as parallel communities.

The current open borders policy not only flies in the face of common sense, it's a recipe for real trouble for all who call this place home further down the line.

professore

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)
No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)
No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)
No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)
No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)
No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

jmayo

professore wrote: »

I always laugh at people going on about how sexist, anti-gay and violent the Koran is - while the Bible is just as bad ....

....

And would you mind telling us how many people you know who actually take what the bible says seriously ?

And even more so when you quote the Old Testament.

Then weigh that up against what proportion of muslims actually do take the koran and associated teaching pretty seriously.

How many countries have their legal system ruled by the bible where it says things, as you no doubt know, like about taking an eye for an eye.

Notice I said RULED by the Christian Bible, and not influenced by Christianity and Christian values.

Then compare to how many countries actually have some form of sharia law in place.

Here is another little thing to compare adherents to islam versus christian churches.

Would you care to name the christian churches where women are not allowed worship in the same room as men ?

Last time I was in a Catholic church, a Church of Ireland church and a Luteran church the men and women were allowed into the same place.

Maybe someone with more experiences of different types of christian worship can enlighten us which ones have the women all shoved in a separate room ?

What is really sad is how so called intelligent people are so fooking set on trying to find excuses for islam and most of it's adherents by scouring through the recesses of christian history and beliefs that almost everyone else in our modern world actually ignores.

It is akin to shouting about the crusades when anyone has a point about the Arab world and Middle East.

take everything

Op here again.
Part of the reason I posted this is because I have known very decent Muslim people.
In fact, one of the people I have in mind is someone who I would admire in terms of how he talks and conducts himself. Quiet, unassuming, intelligent, curious and someone I could see myself getting on well with. Someone i would "get" and who would "get" me.

Actually he is a former Muslim (he told me this after a very interesting conversation we had). He said he used to be a fully-fledged Muslim (as he described himself- "with the beard etc") and was really into its tenets but is now more akin to a non-believer. He didn't say he was an atheist and possibly retained some belief in a higher power. But all that stuff was definitely in his past.

He also confided to me how he was embarrassed at what such atrocities made him feel as a middle eastern person and how it affected how he thought others perceived him.

At the back of mind i still wonder how the residue of such a toxic ideology can affect someone like this. It's a tragedy that bright people like this could have their minds warped by this stuff at some point in their lives.

Every religion has its indoctrination (and every society and culture has if you want to extend the concept) but fundamental (or even less than fundamental Islam) seems particularly insidious. Sam Harris (admittedly a Jew and not unbiased) is convinced of its toxic effect.

Edit: it's people like the above former Muslim that make me get annoyed with leftists and their reflexive minimisation of this issue.
Here's this guy who knows about this and who has lived it willing to honestly look at this issue (he agreed it's largely about education) in stark contrast to triggered leftists (who i'm starting to believe more and more are just projecting their own unconscious racism anyway) shutting down any discussion.