Middle eastern and Islamic attitudes to women

Spider Web

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes: "

- this part. While I welcome a thread on here that finally says female abuse is not okay, the Catholic church is not any different

The catholic church threw girls that were raped into Magdalene laundries, locked them up for 10 - 15 years and referred to their children as 'whore's droppings'.

Let us look at ourselves before we cast a stone in shame. How did the world in general get this dark?

Only when both sexes truly respect each other can we flourish as a world

Crikey, were there threads here saying abuse against women and girls IS ok?
Obviously any kind of abuse against anyone is not ok. You won't get many here disputing that.

Comparisons with the catholic church and the old testament are fair enough in a historical context (and yes, in this country, some women were incarcerated for being raped not terribly long ago).

We are talking about today though. Where is catholic and/or old testament dogma being enforced like hardline islamist dogma is in the Middle East, African countries, former Soviet countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and elsewhere? What catholic/other Christian fundamentalists are carrying out violent attacks across a continent and mass indoctrination in the name of catholicism/Christianity?

Today, 2017, what catholic/other Christian societies have official policies in place to subjugate women like the sharia system?

It's dishonest to equate the two churches today.

And also, I really don't get this "We should look at ourselves" stuff. Why? Most of us here weren't even born when the church/state collusion against illegitimate children and pregnant women was discontinued. How does being from the same country put us in less of a position to criticise? I don't blame a woman who suffers under sharia for that system due to her coming from the society that enforces it. Collective shame is illogical, yet some Irish (and western in general folk) are mad into it.

This and previous generations spoke out against the abuses by the catholic church here. We can easily criticise both abuse of women under Islam today and under the catholic church in the past.

But there is no way the two are the same today.

Shenshen

Spider Web wrote: »

Crikey, were there threads here saying abuse against women and girls IS ok?
Obviously any kind of abuse against anyone is not ok. You won't get many here disputing that.

Comparisons with the catholic church and the old testament are fair enough in a historical context (and yes, in this country, some women here were incarcerated for being raped not terribly long ago).

We are talking about today though. Where is catholic and/or old testament dogma being enforced like hardline islamist dogma is in the Middle East, African countries, former Soviet countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and elsewhere? What catholic/other Christian fundamentalists are carrying out violent attacks across a continent and mass indoctrination in the name of catholicism/christianity?

Today, 2017, what catholic/other Christian societies have official policies in place to subjugate women like the sharia system?

It's dishonest to equate the two churches today.

And also, I really don't get this "We should look at ourselves" stuff. Why? Most of us here weren't even born when the church/state collusion against illegitimate children and pregnant women was discontinued. How does being from the same country put us in less of a position to criticise? I don't blame a woman who suffers under sharia for that system due to her coming from the society that enforces it. Collective shame is illogical, yet some Irish (and western in general folk) are mad into it.

This and previous generations spoke out against the abuses by the catholic church here. We can easily criticise both abuse of women under Islam today and under the catholic church in the past.

But there is no way the two are the same today.

I actually agree with that.
As you said yourself, attitudes here weren't altogether that different not all too long ago.
So my thought is, well done us for realising how morally wrong that was. We've definitely come along in leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades.

So maybe rather than shouting at others how barbaric and backward and beyond all hope and redemption they are, maybe, just maybe, we should look at what it took for us to understand, and try and get THAT message across?
Because really all we'd need to do is ask our parents and grandparents.

Widdershins

Shenshen wrote: »

I actually agree with that.
As you said yourself, attitudes here weren't altogether that different not all too long ago.
So my thought is, well done us for realising how morally wrong that was. We've definitely come along in leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades.

So maybe rather than shouting at others how barbaric and backward and beyond all hope and redemption they are, maybe, just maybe, we should look at what it took for us to understand, and try and get THAT message across?
Because really all we'd need to do is ask our parents and grandparents.

The dilution of the religion itself, and the loosening of the stranglehold of the clergy, and the destruction of its influence. It was in line with the progress the rest of Western society made, albeit more slowly. None of that will happen with Islam anytime soon, it's only getting stronger and its younger devotees are only getting more devout

Shenshen

Widdershins wrote: »

The dilution of the religion itself, and the loosening of the stranglehold of the clergy, and the destruction of its influence. It was in line with the progress the rest of Western society made, albeit more slowly. None of that will happen with Islam anytime soon, it's only getting stronger and its younger devotees are only getting more devout

Is it? From what friends tell me about what's happening in Iran at the moment, I don't believe that it's every single Muslim getting more devout. On the contrary.

It varies greatly from country to country, some are in the process of getting more secular, some are fighting back extremists.

Widdershins

Shenshen wrote: »

Is it? From what friends tell me about what's happening in Iran at the moment, I don't believe that it's every single Muslim getting more devout. On the contrary.

It varies greatly from country to country, some are in the process of getting more secular, some are fighting back extremists.

Not every single Muslim..I didn't say that?
Iran is almost special case and the women there are fighting back against oppression, but look at most other Muslim countries and more importantly, look at the UK. And France. There are myriad accounts of older Muslims observing a much more pious younger generation. Look up the developments at Tower Hamlets, it's a prime example of this.
It's not hard to find Muslim women who wear 'modesty' garments as a political statement now, either.

With no overall authority or structure like Catholic Church had, and so many different sects, and the fact that it's not the clergy but the adherents who are doing the oppressing, its just a different kettle of fish.

Which countries would you say are getting more secular?
Turkey is a particularly horrifying example of Islamification under Erdogan.

Richard Hillman

Shenshen wrote: »

Is it? From what friends tell me about what's happening in Iran at the moment, I don't believe that it's every single Muslim getting more devout. On the contrary.

It varies greatly from country to country, some are in the process of getting more secular, some are fighting back extremists.

Iran are Shia. Every Sunni country bar maybe UAE and the other holiday destinations on the east of the peninsula are tightening.

Malaysia and Indonesia are having severe crackdowns. Province by Province, Pakistan are tightening their laws. Central Asia is turning into full Sharia States. Turkey is becoming increasingly Islamist. All over Africa is at war with Sunni forces wanting to install Sharia law. The Phillipines are at war with a full on Sharia group.

So apart from the Emirates and maybe Oman, every country is becoming increasingly Islamist.

Spider Web

Shenshen wrote: »

I actually agree with that.
As you said yourself, attitudes here weren't altogether that different not all too long ago.
So my thought is, well done us for realising how morally wrong that was. We've definitely come along in leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades.

So maybe rather than shouting at others how barbaric and backward and beyond all hope and redemption they are, maybe, just maybe, we should look at what it took for us to understand, and try and get THAT message across?
Because really all we'd need to do is ask our parents and grandparents.

Ireland was never as bad as some of the worst sharia societies - nowhere near it. There is no "us" and "we" about it - we weren't even born.

Here, education was what made the subsequent generations (born from about the 1960s onwards) question the church - and education is not available to women in sharia societies. I'm not one for "shouting about how barbaric and backward and beyond all hope and redemption" particular people are, but nothing wrong with being critical, just like I'm critical of wrongdoings by the catholic church.

Snake Plisken

Poor child this shouldn't be allowed
https://twitter.com/djack_journo/status/901943397023350784

Widdershins

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Poor child this shouldn't be allowed
https://twitter.com/djack_journo/status/901943397023350784

No, it shouldn't be allowed. That's another whole scandal brewing.
That child has been inculcated with a hatred of Western women and culture, already. ''European women are alcoholics'' ''Christmas is stupid and Easter is stupid.''

Grayson

Spider Web wrote: »

Ireland was never as bad as some of the worst sharia societies - nowhere near it. There is no "us" and "we" about it - we weren't even born.

Here, education was what made the subsequent generations (born from about the 1960s onwards) question the church - and education is not available to women in sharia societies. I'm not one for "shouting about how barbaric and backward and beyond all hope and redemption" particular people are, but nothing wrong with being critical, just like I'm critical of wrongdoings by the catholic church.

Just being pedantic but a lot of "sharia" countries do have education systems for women. The taliban and ISIS don't but they do in Saudi.

Not that it makes Saudi a nice place, I'm just pointing out that they do have an educated female population.

Zebra3

Widdershins wrote: »

No, it shouldn't be allowed. That's another whole scandal brewing.
That child has been inculcated with a hatred of Western women and culture, already. ''European women are alcoholics'' ''Christmas is stupid and Easter is stupid.''

Tbf, Christmas and Easter are stupid.

Widdershins

Zebra3 wrote: »

Tbf, Christmas and Easter are stupid.

The significance is lost on you?

bobbyss

I see troupes of men making their way to the Mosque locally at Friday midday and not a woman in sight. Where are they at prayer time? They are allowed (!) into a mosque I know, but I never see any woman at all?

Why is that anyone know?

Widdershins

To put a girl child into a practising strict Muslim family who might force her through FGM, compulsory hijabing, arranged or forced marriage, male-female segregation, and the human rights abuses of Islamic /Sharia law, is unacceptable. Imagine if it was a Muslim child being mistreated by a Christian foster carer. People wouldn't be slow to condemn that, and rightly so, so I hope that case isn't brushed under the carpet along with any others like it.

Mutant z

And yet we have muppets in the media and government who want to break a MB sympatising jihadi out of an Egyption prison you couldnt make it up.

Lux23

bobbyss wrote: »

I see troupes of men making their way to the Mosque locally at Friday midday and not a woman in sight. Where are they at prayer time? They are allowed (!) into a mosque I know, but I never see any woman at all?

Why is that anyone know?

I see plenty of women going to the mosque near me? Maybe they go at different times.

seamus

Matteo Old Topcoat wrote: »

In some countries women are treated like shít. It's not right at all, however, they need to figure that out themselves.

Keep in mind, some women in these countries don't want the changes we wish for them.

I was watching one of those, "It was alright in the 70's" shows last week, which was focussing on sexism, racism, etc in broadcasting at the time.

One of the more fascinating parts was an anti-feminism movement - not dissimilar from the MRA nonsense today - which involved quite a lot of women supporting the "women's place in the home" line.

Thing is, people dislike change. The things we know are safe. The things we don't, we fear. Stockholm syndrome is an offshoot of this; clinging to familiarity because everything else is scary as sh1t.

There are still women in Ireland today, who oppose feminism. Who believe that women are inferior to men and should be subservient.

We can't allow the fears and irrationalities of a small subset of women to make decisions for the rest.

Widdershins wrote: »

To put a girl child into a practising strict Muslim family who might force her through FGM, compulsory hijabing, arranged or forced marriage, male-female segregation, and the human rights abuses of Islamic /Sharia law, is unacceptable. Imagine if it was a Muslim child being mistreated by a Christian foster carer. People wouldn't be slow to condemn that, and rightly so, so I hope that case isn't brushed under the carpet along with any others like it.

It's fostering, not adoption. There's more regular contact with the authorities and the foster parents don't have the authority to make decisions as a parent would.
Assuming that mutilation or marriage might take place is pure unfounded hysteria.

Anyway, this isn't really a muslim issue. There are plenty of examples of devout christian foster parents putting foster children through hell and forcing them to conform to their beliefs. In all cases, it's a failure on the part of the social services to appropriately vet foster families and monitor the children put into their care.

There's a strong argument that someone having a devout faith of any kind should be automatically disqualified from fostering because they are incapable of serving the best interests of any given child.

Lux23

I only know one Muslim couple well, so I can't really comment on their attitudes on a broad level, but this fella is terrified of his wife. She is a bit of a weapon to be fair, more like an old fashioned Irish mammy with a high flying job.

Zebra3

Lux23 wrote: »

I only know one Muslim couple well, so I can't really comment on their attitudes on a broad level, but this fella is terrified of his wife. She is a bit of a weapon to be fair, more like an old fashioned Irish mammy with a high flying job.

He sounds like a lot of spineless Irish men.

Pkiernan

https://m.imgur.com/1yLy0JH

Lux23

Zebra3 wrote: »

He sounds like a lot of spineless Irish men.

No, I wouldn't say he is spineless she is just pretty formidable. Maybe she had to be where she grew up.

Lux23

Pkiernan wrote: »

https://m.imgur.com/1yLy0JH

Rubbish!!

Widdershins

seamus wrote: »

It's fostering, not adoption. There's more regular contact with the authorities and the foster parents don't have the authority to make decisions as a parent would.
Assuming that mutilation or marriage might take place is pure unfounded hysteria.

Anyway, this isn't really a muslim issue. There are plenty of examples of devout christian foster parents putting foster children through hell and forcing them to conform to their beliefs. In all cases, it's a failure on the part of the social services to appropriately vet foster families and monitor the children put into their care.

There's a strong argument that someone having a devout faith of any kind should be automatically disqualified from fostering because they are incapable of serving the best interests of any given child.

It's a suitability issue. And I don't agree it's ''pure hysteria'', considering the abuse already taking place in that home. Once she reaches 16 the monitoring will really drop off the cliff and children especially of that age slip through the cracks in UK social services with alarming regularity. Yes, clearly it is a failure to vet and monitor, but more to the point, a failure to find an appropriate placement in the first place. It had better be rectified soon before the child is mentally destroyed.

I wouldn't oppose your last suggestion.

jmayo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

A religion that actually fosters systems and cultures where women that are subject to rape are to blame and are punished, often by being forced to marry their rapist, is akin to a religion that does not allow women to be celebrants and ministers. :rolleyes:

- this part. While I welcome a thread on here that finally says female abuse is not okay, the Catholic church is not any different

The catholic church threw girls that were raped into Magdalene laundries, locked them up for 10 - 15 years and referred to their children as 'whore's droppings'.

Let us look at ourselves before we cast a stone in shame. How did the world in general get this dark?

Only when both sexes truly respect each other can we flourish as a world

Ohh FFS.
Some excusitory hogwash with a bit of Saccharin thrown in at the end.

So would you condemn executions in the likes of the US, you know we had executions until 1954 and it was on the statue books until 1990 for police killings ?

The Magdalene laundries were a stain on this countries history, both from the point of view of the catholic church, but also the arms of the state who conspired to keep them in operation.

But note that word history.

Nothing would ever be done if people continue to navel gaze.

The Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, the christian brother schools, etc would still be allowed operate if some fine people hadn't decided to ignore the old
"Let us look at ourselves before we cast a stone in shame".

Shenshen wrote: »

Is it? From what friends tell me about what's happening in Iran at the moment, I don't believe that it's every single Muslim getting more devout. On the contrary.

It varies greatly from country to country, some are in the process of getting more secular, some are fighting back extremists.

Ehh 90-95% Shia.

Not would you mind telling us the list of Shia terrorist attacks around the world in the last 15 years?

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Poor child this shouldn't be allowed
https://twitter.com/djack_journo/status/901943397023350784

So now the authorities have decided to just give some muslims young girls, official like. :rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

Widdershins wrote: »

To put a girl child into a practising strict Muslim family who might force her through FGM, compulsory hijabing, arranged or forced marriage, male-female segregation, and the human rights abuses of Islamic /Sharia law, is unacceptable....

Agreed, but I just want to point out that FGM is not an Islamic (or Middle Eastern) custom. It's African, and not confined to Muslim families.

Widdershins

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Agreed, but I just want to point out that FGM is not an Islamic (or Middle Eastern) custom. It's African, and not confined to Muslim families.

I know it's not only an Islamic custom but it is now prevalent in Islamic society.

Kivaro

Mutant z wrote: »

And yet we have muppets in the media and government who want to break a MB sympatising jihadi out of an Egyption prison you couldnt make it up.

And at the same time, his sister is suing the Irish government for not allowing her Egyptian suitor into Ireland fast enough.

Nope, you couldn't make it up.

Snake Plisken

Kivaro wrote: »

And at the same time, his sister is suing the Irish government for not allowing her Egyptian suitor into Ireland fast enough.

Nope, you couldn't make it up.

The sisters should be extradited back to Egypt for skipping bail! They have very strong contacts in the media every week there is another article on the journal it's a joke or on Newstalk or Rte

Snake Plisken

Widdershins wrote: »

It's a suitability issue. And I don't agree it's ''pure hysteria'', considering the abuse already taking place in that home. Once she reaches 16 the monitoring will really drop off the cliff and children especially of that age slip through the cracks in UK social services with alarming regularity. Yes, clearly it is a failure to vet and monitor, but more to the point, a failure to find an appropriate placement in the first place. It had better be rectified soon before the child is mentally destroyed.

I wouldn't oppose your last suggestion.

Exactly shows how demented some of the posters on here are that they see no problem with a Christian girl being fostered out to a clearly strict Muslim family.
Who ever authorised this needs to be sacked!

AlekSmart

Grayson wrote: »

Just being pedantic but a lot of "sharia" countries do have education systems for women. The taliban and ISIS don't but they do in Saudi.

Not that it makes Saudi a nice place, I'm just pointing out that they do have an educated female population.

The issue is not the availability of "Education" to female muslims,but the nature of that "Education".

Some posters earlier in thread,came close to establishing the link that enabled the enlightenment of our native Catholic population,and it was the free availability of Education-pure'n simple.

Once the seed is planted,it will expand within any given religious mindset,allowing hitherto unchallenged fundamentals to be robustly challenged.

However,as we can see with Muslim Education in particular,the established Leadership has put down it's markers in terms of what will be permitted in Irish Muslim Schools,and that line will NOT be crossed.

The likes of Imam Hawala and Ali Selim have been very clear as to the amount of Western influence they are prepared to allow into the area of Muslim education (particularly female education).

These lads know damn well,that their handy number is up once their flock get to the broader level of education made possible by modern Western Society,so one can hardly be surprised when the wagons are circled long in advance of the issue.