2018 Leaf

BoatMad · 21-08-2017 8:05pm

bp_me wrote: »

This is a bizarre way to do it from a packaging point of view.

A single 11kw is nowhere near the volume (or weight) of 3x 3.6kw units.

I can see how it might have been a simple (lazy?) upgrade for them for leaf 1 but it would be odd to maintain that arrangement when they have the opportunity to repackage it for the new car...

Well I think this is at a electronic pcb level and makes perfect sense as a 3 phase charger is in reality 3x single phase units

bp_me · 21-08-2017 8:06pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Well I think this is at a electronic pcb level and makes perfect sense as a 3 phase charger is in reality 3x single phase units

Well yes... that makes more sense...

I started searching and ended up down a rabbit hole of people adding extra chargers to their gen 1 leafs

grogi · 21-08-2017 8:22pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Well I think this is at a electronic pcb level and makes perfect sense as a 3 phase charger is in reality 3x single phase units

In here we have massive one phase supplies, contrary to the continent where everything above 12 kVA would be on three phases... Is it possible to feed all three chargers from same phase? The same way you would feed the electric hob...

Bigus · 21-08-2017 8:25pm

From CAR magazine today

The intrigue about the Mk2 Leaf is being stripped away by a series of leaks and official teasers. Powertrain details were briefly revealed on US automotive marketing platform Autobytel, suggesting the electric motor’s peak power will jump from 109 to 145bhp+, with peak torque climbing from 187 to 236lb ft. The motor will continue to spin the front wheels via a single speed transmission.

Battery pack capacity climbs from 30kWh to 40kWh, although that critical yardstick – range – is still secret. Today’s UK Leaf has a 155-mile range: will the Mk2 be able to pass 200 miles on a single charge, a feat managed by the Chevrolet Bolt with its 60kWh pack, and claimed by Tesla’s 50kWh Model 3? The other details revealed in the Autobytel leak were US list prices, starting at $29,990.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/nissan/new-2018-nissan-leaf-revealed-pictures-specs-and-details/

BoatMad · 21-08-2017 8:28pm

Bigus wrote: »

From CAR magazine today

The intrigue about the Mk2 Leaf is being stripped away by a series of leaks and official teasers. Powertrain details were briefly revealed on US automotive marketing platform Autobytel, suggesting the electric motor’s peak power will jump from 109 to 145bhp+, with peak torque climbing from 187 to 236lb ft. The motor will continue to spin the front wheels via a single speed transmission.

Battery pack capacity climbs from 30kWh to 40kWh, although that critical yardstick – range – is still secret. Today’s UK Leaf has a 155-mile range: will the Mk2 be able to pass 200 miles on a single charge, a feat managed by the Chevrolet Bolt with its 60kWh pack, and claimed by Tesla’s 50kWh Model 3? The other details revealed in the Autobytel leak were US list prices, starting at $29,990.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/nissan/new-2018-nissan-leaf-revealed-pictures-specs-and-details/

I suspect mixing up km and miles here

I suspect the 40 kWh will be underwhelming with range just tipping pastvthd current Ioniq

macnab · 21-08-2017 9:06pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I suspect mixing up km and miles here

I suspect the 40 kWh will be underwhelming with range just tipping pastvthd current Ioniq

Id say Leaf 2 with 40kWh battery will add 100km onto the current 30kw range ie 290km in Summer and 260km in winter.

thierry14 · 21-08-2017 11:27pm

Great if true

Rumours have it at 40kwh useable too, what's that like 44kwh in old terms?

If it's close to 300km, does 0-60 in 7 secs and decent pass speed ( under 5 secs ) from 80kmh - 120kmh I will buy it for 25k

Be no compromises then for me.

unkel · 21-08-2017 11:35pm

You're very optimistic, lads.

If a current 30kWh Leaf has a realistic (summer) range of 160km, add a third to that (going from 30 to 40kWh) and you're up at just over 210km

Add better efficiency and aerodynamic and you'll get maybe another 40km? I'd say that's about it. Although we can of course argue to death of what the realistic range is once the car is out. Certainly not the EPA range as almost no EV gets the EPA range in Ireland if there is a good bit of 120km/h motorway driving involved. And range is only imported for long range driving (= motorway driving)

thierry14 · 21-08-2017 11:53pm

unkel wrote: »

You're very optimistic, lads.

If a current 30kWh Leaf has a realistic (summer) range of 160km, add a third to that (going from 30 to 40kWh) and you're up at just over 210km

Add better efficiency and aerodynamic and you'll get maybe another 40km? I'd say that's about it. Although we can of course argue to death of what the realistic range is once the car is out. Certainly not the EPA range as almost no EV gets the EPA range in Ireland if there is a good bit of 120km/h motorway driving involved. And range is only imported for long range driving (= motorway driving)

Is the Leaf not 27/28kwh useable?

I'd say the efficiency they have made over 9 years has a 30kwh Leaf doing nearly 200km in new gen form, no reason not to expect nearly 300km from a 33% larger battery?

22-08-2017 10:58am

Yes you'd probably reach 300 Km driving non motorway speeds, dry roads with improved aerodynamics but they'll most likely optimise the drive train for higher speeds, the current leaf is optimised for about 80 kph.

Some Zoe 40 kwh owners are able to get around 280 Kms.

ELM327 · 22-08-2017 11:12am

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you'd probably reach 300 Km driving non motorway speeds, dry roads with improved aerodynamics but they'll most likely optimise the drive train for higher speeds, the current leaf is optimised for about 80 kph.

Some Zoe 40 kwh owners are able to get around 280 Kms.

I've seen one chap on youtube get to within a couple of km of the 300 mark, driving normally. And that was a wet day.

It seems to be more than double to original zoe.

unkel · 22-08-2017 11:19am

Zoe 41kWh has a big range. But only if you drive it slowly (and not in winter). I posted a hypermiling of 428km or something like that last week

22-08-2017 11:50am

I can manage the EPA test easily in the Leaf and also matched the 15.3 or pretty damn close the EPA test for the Ioniq so that should be a good indicator. Yes people will get a good bit more and less depending on a lot of things.

The Black Oil · 22-08-2017 8:44pm

Closer...

https://twitter.com/NissanEV_UK/status/900033355688837120

DrPhilG · 22-08-2017 10:17pm

Saw on Facebook also that Nissan are now selling the 24kwh Leaf SVE/Tekna for €20k.

(edited, 24kWh not 30)

thierry14 · 22-08-2017 10:27pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Saw on Facebook also that Nissan are now selling the 30kwh Leaf SVE/Tekna for €20k.

If the new model starts at 25k, I wouldn't even consider that good a deal, it will be so dated I'd say.

Would need to be 17k or less to tempt me, some car for that money.

grogi · 22-08-2017 10:28pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Saw on Facebook also that Nissan are now selling the 30kwh Leaf SVE/Tekna for €20k.

It's an offer for 24 kWh 3.3 kW, not 30 kWh 6.6 kW.

DrPhilG · 22-08-2017 10:31pm

grogi wrote: »

It's an offer for 24 kWh 3.3 kW, not 30 kWh 6.6 kW.

Correct, my mistake.

unkel · 22-08-2017 11:19pm

That's not a good deal at all. I got one priced for €20k on the road incl metallic paint and 6.6kW charger almost a year ago (not SVE). Should be more like €16-€17k now depending of course if they still have stock to get rid off. €20k for a 30kWh on the road and agreed with thierry14 that if indeed the new model starts at €25k on the road*, that wouldn't be a good deal at all.

*that still remains to be seen. I have my doubts...

Soarer · 23-08-2017 9:36am

unkel wrote: »

That's not a good deal at all. I got one priced for €20k on the road incl metallic paint and 6.6kW charger almost a year ago (not SVE). Should be more like €16-€17k now depending of course if they still have stock to get rid off. €20k for a 30kWh on the road and agreed with thierry14 that if indeed the new model starts at €25k on the road*, that wouldn't be a good deal at all.

*that still remains to be seen. I have my doubts...

How come?

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 9:37am

unkel wrote: »

What do you mean, DrPhilG? You're disappointed it's "only" 40kWh? I feel that's a respectable enough capacity. You have to take into account the Leaf competes at the bottom of the market. What were you expecting, 60kWh?

Nissan (and all other EV manufacturers excluding Tesla and Hyundai) have to be aware though that the most important thing about EVs is coefficient of drag. Nothing else matters as much. Not for now anyway while battery capacity comes at a price.

Considering the bolt is available at 60kWh, that sets the new "non-premium" EV standard (ie non-Tesla).

Entering with a new EV now at 40kWh is toward the lower end of the current market and will be derisively old hat in 2-4 years.

grogi · 23-08-2017 9:38am

Soarer wrote: »

How come?

I'm the same. I am optimistic, but I believe it when I see it.

Soarer · 23-08-2017 9:40am

grogi wrote: »

I'm the same. I am optimistic, but I believe it when I see it.

How come?

KCross · 23-08-2017 9:45am

ELM327 wrote: »

Considering the bolt is available at 60kWh, that sets the new "non-premium" EV standard (ie non-Tesla).

Entering with a new EV now at 40kWh is toward the lower end of the current market and will be derisively old hat in 2-4 years.

The Bolt isn't available over here though, is it, and its apparently being sold at a loss so I wonder if it is really the benchmark?

Nissan need to make money and I think the focus should be on range rather than battery size. This is what Tesla are doing by removing the battery capacity badges from their cars. Range is really all that matters, the Ioniq has taught us that.

Regardless, I don't think 40kWh will be old hat in 4yrs time based on the affordable EV's on the way.... which is very little!

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 9:51am

KCross wrote: »

The Bolt isn't available over here though, is it, and its apparently being sold at a loss so I wonder if it is really the benchmark?

Nissan need to make money and I think the focus should be on range rather than battery size. This is what Tesla are doing by removing the battery capacity badges from their cars. Range is really all that matters, the Ioniq has taught us that.

Regardless, I don't think 40kWh will be old hat in 4yrs time based on the affordable EV's on the way.... which is very little!

It's not available here but that's because of the PSA/Peugeot involvement.
It is available in the rest of the EU.

If you take 4 years from now going backwards (IE 2013) all we had was the gen1 leaf. We've moved on a lot in those 4 years, and we now have 40kWh in the Zoe and 30-33kWh in others. I think in another 4 years with the ever cheaper per kWh battery cost, the expanse in battery size will be exponentially faster. I think the limit for small cars will be 60kWh and luxury cars 100kWh.

It's a bit "predicting the future" though and all anyone can gave is their best guess based on what has gone before, and there's no reason why my answer is any more or less "correct" than yours.

For one thing, it will be interesting to come back in 2021 to read this thread and see what happened in the interim!

grogi · 23-08-2017 9:59am

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not available here but that's because of the PSA/Peugeot involvement.
It is available in the rest of the EU.

If you take 4 years from now going backwards (IE 2013) all we had was the gen1 leaf. We've moved on a lot in those 4 years, and we now have 40kWh in the Zoe and 30-33kWh in others. I think in another 4 years with the ever cheaper per kWh battery cost, the expanse in battery size will be exponentially faster. I think the limit for small cars will be 60kWh and luxury cars 100kWh.

It's a bit "predicting the future" though and all anyone can gave is their best guess based on what has gone before, and there's no reason why my answer is any more or less "correct" than yours.

For one thing, it will be interesting to come back in 2021 to read this thread and see what happened in the interim!

I don't think there will be exponential explosion of the capacity. In my opinion for entry level cars the range/capacity will plateau at 250 km of winter range - which is around 40 kWh combined with improved efficiency.

There will be cars with longer range, but it the progress will be towards cheaper drive trains rather than bigger batteries.

KCross · 23-08-2017 10:17am

grogi wrote: »

I don't think there will be exponential explosion of the capacity. In my opinion for entry level cars the range/capacity will plateau at 250 km of winter range - which is around 40 kWh combined with improved efficiency.

There will be cars with longer range, but it the progress will be towards cheaper drive trains rather than bigger batteries.

This ^^

The gains in capacity are hard won and expensive. It's not Moore's law we are dealing with in battery capacity. The cost of batteries has reduced considerably ($1000/kWh to <$200/kWh) which has allowed the increase from 24kWh EV's to 40-50kWh. Having 60kWh as standard in the medium term (10yrs) seems unlikely to me. You will be able to get it but pay a premium for it. i.e. it won't be a €25k car.

The next jump up will be difficult to deliver to the masses unless there is a battery tech breakthrough.... just my opinion based on how long it has taken to get to here and from listening to Musk talk about Tesla batteries and costs etc.

unkel · 23-08-2017 10:42am

+2

The average car in this country does 49km per day (18k km per year). So even with a 30kWh battery and an efficient EV, you only need to charge it twice a week at most. My point is that this is plenty for the average car.

People who need more range can opt for more expensive higher capacity batteries. But most people will never need them.

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 10:45am

It is plenty.
But if it were sufficient, we would already see mass EV adoption.

Which as we know, has not happened.

So - we need larger batteries and/or much more efficiency gains, to give a 400-500km real world range.
The EVs we have now are great cars don't get me wrong but the reality is no one wants them - with the exception of the oddballs like myself (and the others on this forum) who can do the sums right!

grogi · 23-08-2017 10:49am

ELM327 wrote: »

It is plenty.
But if it were sufficient, we would already see mass EV adoption.

It is not about what people need, but what people think they need or want.
Majority of people don't need diesel, yet it still is 70% of the market in here.

When the only option given is to buy a 400/250km (summer/winter range) car or 600/400km for 30% more, majority will really think and pick what they really need.

KCross · 23-08-2017 10:57am

ELM327 wrote: »

It is plenty.
But if it were sufficient, we would already see mass EV adoption.

Which as we know, has not happened.

To be fair though, the 40kWh affordable cars are not here yet (apart form Zoe) so you can't say its insufficient because the market hasn't bought something that doesn't exist.

We need to see Leaf II, Model 3, Ioniq II and a bunch of other 40kWh cars and then you might see an upsurge in purchasing when put alongside higher taxes on ICE.

23-08-2017 10:58am

The more range the more independence from the charging network, the less range the greater the dependence.

The faster the charging the less need for larger batteries but more dependence on the charging network.

So range along with faster charging is key. I'd say a real 300 kms and 300 Kw charging would be pretty much perfect.

But........give people the option to choose a cheaper car with less Kwh or more expensive car with more kwh.

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 11:26am

grogi wrote: »

It is not about what people need, but what people think they need or want.
Majority of people don't need diesel, yet it still is 70% of the market in here.

When the only option given is to buy a 400/250km (summer/winter range) car or 600/400km for 30% more, majority will really think and pick what they really need.

KCross wrote: »

To be fair though, the 40kWh affordable cars are not here yet (apart form Zoe) so you can't say its insufficient because the market hasn't bought something that doesn't exist.

We need to see Leaf II, Model 3, Ioniq II and a bunch of other 40kWh cars and then you might see an upsurge in purchasing when put alongside higher taxes on ICE.

People don't buy what they should, they buy what they want!
Eg - people buying diesel to do 5k per year.
Even if you show someone (and I know becaise I have done this) that an EV would suit 100% of their journeys for the past 12-18 months, there's the "what if" question which is magically resolved by the 400km range.

Logically an Ioniq or 30kWh leaf should suit everyone living in the GDA but there are very few on the road.

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 11:27am

Deleted User wrote: »

The more range the more independence from the charging network, the less range the greater the dependence.

The faster the charging the less need for larger batteries but more dependence on the charging network.

So range along with faster charging is key. I'd say a real 300 kms and 300 Kw charging would be pretty much perfect.

But........give people the option to choose a cheaper car with less Kwh or more expensive car with more kwh.

I have learned one important lesson re buying an EV,make sure you never need to use the network. Only for long trips (eg holidays etc), never for regular or time sensitive trips as it is not dependable. At all.

who_ru · 23-08-2017 12:23pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I have learned one important lesson re buying an EV,make sure you never need to use the network. Only for long trips (eg holidays etc), never for regular or time sensitive trips as it is not dependable. At all.

And our TDs and govt are not even remotely interested in addressing the charging network. All the talk about improving air quality is just that. Talk.

Soarer · 23-08-2017 12:39pm

who_ru wrote: »

And our TDs and govt are not even remotely interested in addressing the charging network. All the talk about improving air quality is just that. Talk.

They'd drastically improve the air quality if they shut up for a while.

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 12:45pm

who_ru wrote: »

And our TDs and govt are not even remotely interested in addressing the charging network. All the talk about improving air quality is just that. Talk.

I just don't see why ecotricity or fastned can't come here.
I look jealously at the Norway companies with 4+FCP in some locations.

We can but dream :mad:

KCross · 23-08-2017 1:22pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I just don't see why ecotricity or fastned can't come here.
I look jealously at the Norway companies with 4+FCP in some locations.

We can but dream :mad:

They won't until there is a decision made on the current infrastructure.

Would you spend millions on a network rollout while the current system is free?

They need to know where they stand first. Tesla are an exception because the cost of their network is built into their car sales price.... very clever and gives them a big advantage going forward.

FYI: The CER are saying (yesterday) that they will publish a decision on it by the end of this month, so next week!

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 2:00pm

KCross wrote: »

They won't until there is a decision made on the current infrastructure.

Would you spend millions on a network rollout while the current system is free?

They need to know where they stand first. Tesla are an exception because the cost of their network is built into their car sales price.... very clever and gives them a big advantage going forward.

FYI: The CER are saying (yesterday) that they will publish a decision on it by the end of this month, so next week!

At least that would be some progress! Do you have a link to that?

KCross · 23-08-2017 2:20pm

ELM327 wrote: »

At least that would be some progress! Do you have a link to that?

I dont. It was a direct email I sent to them and thats what they said to me yesterday.

They also said end of Q2 a few months ago so take it whatever way you wish, but a weeks time is awfully close to be bull****ting me so I think we will see some detail in the next 1-2 weeks.

The quote was:

The CER is expecting to publish a decision paper by the end of this month.

Water John · 23-08-2017 3:47pm

Well, if the Kona is over 300km, then the tipping point is close. Not a lot more needed to swing a large tranche of the public.

I could live with the Kona as the second EV car in the house, no ICE.

KCross · 23-08-2017 4:16pm

Water John wrote: »

Well, if the Kona is over 300km, then the tipping point is close. Not a lot more needed to swing a large tranche of the public.

I could live with the Kona as the second EV car in the house, no ICE.

I concur, but is availability in large volume going to be the real issue?

If they couldn't fulfil Ioniq demand it doesn't bode well for a Kona that is to have a battery almost twice the size!

ELM327 · 23-08-2017 4:17pm

KCross wrote: »

I dont. It was a direct email I sent to them and thats what they said to me yesterday.

They also said end of Q2 a few months ago so take it whatever way you wish, but a weeks time is awfully close to be bull****ting me so I think we will see some detail in the next 1-2 weeks.

The quote was:
The CER is expecting to publish a decision paper by the end of this month.

Ok great.
Hopefully it will bring an end to this impasse, one way or another

BoatMad · 24-08-2017 12:00pm

who_ru wrote: »

And our TDs and govt are not even remotely interested in addressing the charging network. All the talk about improving air quality is just that. Talk.

This isn't actually true. But the network in Ireland was conceived as a research project and effectively funded outside the state.

This makes us very unusual with an integrated nationwide system that was unfortunately not built on any strategic thinking

As aside a senior civil servant said to me " if you can see a way we can support the charger network and not fall foul of EU rules then let us know , cause currently we can't see a way to do it "

The civil servants understand the issue , but the EU is a right wing capitalist mentality and abhors state support

BoatMad · 24-08-2017 12:01pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Ok great.
Hopefully it will bring an end to this impasse, one way or another

The expected solution will entirely imperil EV takeup in Ireland I fear and create a commercial monopoly

BoatMad · 24-08-2017 12:04pm

KCross wrote: »

They won't until there is a decision made on the current infrastructure.

Would you spend millions on a network rollout while the current system is free?

They need to know where they stand first. Tesla are an exception because the cost of their network is built into their car sales price.... very clever and gives them a big advantage going forward.

FYI: The CER are saying (yesterday) that they will publish a decision on it by the end of this month, so next week!

I don't see any commercial competition arriving here once esb has a virtual monopoly position , I effect both controlling the grid and the chargers

We have firvall the right reasons ended up in a bad place

80sDiesel · 24-08-2017 12:10pm

Was thinking of my mum who would in 95% of situations, could easily use an EV. But it is those times when she goes to see her siblings in the 4 corners of Ireland, when that 5% ,would be the most critically important. My mum will not want and will not understand the charging network and even if she did, one dud charger could spell 'disaster'. Not until someone likes her can pull into a 'service station' with guaranteed 'refulling' would i imagine an EV would ever suit her. (or indeed the vast majority of the public ).

ELM327 · 24-08-2017 12:26pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The expected solution will entirely imperil EV takeup in Ireland I fear and create a commercial monopoly

Yes, I am led to believe that the likely outcome is just to wash hands, and hand charge of the network *(pardon the pun) over to ESB to do as they see fit.
If they introduce the charging costs mooted before, I won't be buying a new EV atall after I sell my leaf.

Water John · 24-08-2017 1:06pm

Great Diesel, to extrapulate from your mother's particular circumstances, to the majority of the pop.
If you don't believe in EV, you have made your point.

Can't see how ESB would be left with a monopoly, Against EU regs. ESB/EirGrid would have to produce a protocol that allows private suppliers enter the market.

24-08-2017 1:09pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If they introduce the charging costs mooted before, I won't be buying a new EV atall after I sell my leaf.

Why ? If you got say, Leaf II and it has around 250 odd Kms how often would you use the Public network ?

2018 Leaf

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