NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

Link3n · 03-08-2017 4:06pm

Hi, Just wondering if anybody has the latest regarding batch 2. What number are they at for Dublin?
Anybody get their placing for regional locations?
Did anybody get an offer from batch 2 yet?
Would be great to get some clarification on the whole thing?

Killer K · 03-08-2017 4:36pm

Link3n wrote: »

Hi, Just wondering if anybody has the latest regarding batch 2. What number are they at for Dublin?
Anybody get their placing for regional locations?
Did anybody get an offer from batch 2 yet?
Would be great to get some clarification on the whole thing?

We are all trying to put together various pieces of info that we have. If you read back over the threads from the past forthright I think that is as much as anybody knows.

My take on it, for what it is worth, is that there are about 30 positions to be offered to batch 2 and that this will happen fairly soon. Optimistically thinking that there will be a significant number of other offers made in the Autumn.

As far as I am aware no offers have been made from batch 2 as of yet.

sodacake1968 · 03-08-2017 5:48pm

coloneldecker wrote: »

I rang this morning to try to get my place on the Dublin panel but told they don't keep a specific Dublin panel which seems weird, I would've thought they'd have the panels done up for each region but apparently they do them all except Dublin.

The guy told me the open placing was a very good indication of Dublin placing as there were very few people without Dublin as a selection which again seems weird given that a good few people on here seem to be regional only. He also said that being on both open and interdepartmental is no advantage and the open is all that really matters.

So basically I know no more after that call than I did before, if anything, I know less!!

there are 30 places in the difference between my open and inter positions so.....

sodacake1968 · 03-08-2017 5:49pm

Riskymove wrote: »

It is Departments that must follow the ratio not PAS

PAS will respond to requests from Departments

for example PAS oculd recieve requests from 10 Departments all seeking someone from Open Panel so next 10 would all be from Open[/QUOTE

if rumours are to be believed certain departments have debts to various panels - not a very transparent process I'm afraid!!

Killer K · 03-08-2017 9:09pm

sodacake1968 wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

It is Departments that must follow the ratio not PAS

PAS will respond to requests from Departments

for example PAS oculd recieve requests from 10 Departments all seeking someone from Open Panel so next 10 would all be from Open[/QUOTE

if rumours are to be believed certain departments have debts to various panels - not a very transparent process I'm afraid!!

I wonder how much in reality it makes a difference. If there (and this is an estimate) are two thirds of applicants on open and interd whether the person is taken from the interd or open doesn't matter as in 2/3rds of cases it is the same person. Know very little on the internal process but imagine there is crossover there between interd and internal.

ZolaGood · 03-08-2017 9:14pm

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

Link3n · 03-08-2017 9:42pm

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

How do you get the offer? Is it by email or phone call?

Killer K · 03-08-2017 9:56pm

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

That's my point though. Had you accepted one, you are gone from the batch and both panels.

bobbysands81 · 04-08-2017 1:33am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

bobbysands81 · 04-08-2017 1:33am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

ZolaGood · 05-08-2017 11:48am

Link3n wrote: »

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

How do you get the offer? Is it by email or phone call?

Message on your PAS message board

Killer K · 05-08-2017 3:11pm

ZolaGood wrote: »

Message on your PAS message board

Are they specific about the Department and the role in the mesage?

dee75 · 05-08-2017 6:45pm

Killer K wrote: »

Are they specific about the Department and the role in the mesage?

Only the Department and county in my message. Plus a name and contact number for the person in that department's HR who will ring with full details and start date after (I haven't had the latter bit yet so hoping to hear early next week).

Killer K · 05-08-2017 7:43pm

dee75 wrote: »

Only the Department and county in my message. Plus a name and contact number for the person in that department's HR who will ring with full details and start date after (I haven't had the latter bit yet so hoping to hear early next week).

Thanks Dee. That has taken some more of the mystery out of it!

Hope you hear from HR soon. I take it that you are going through reference checks and E vetting at the moment and that is why there is a wait?

dee75 · 05-08-2017 7:49pm

Killer K wrote: »

Thanks Dee. That has taken some more of the mystery out of it!

Hope you hear from HR soon. I take it that you are going through reference checks and E vetting at the moment and that is why there is a wait?

That's it exactly. I'm external so they wanted a reference from my current employer (although they classed current as where you were in December 2016 when we all applied rather than where you are right now). Because I was self-employed at that time I had to get two client references instead which took about a week or so to organise.

I also had to complete the online vetting form but it took only two days for vetting to come back!

ThumbTaxed · 06-08-2017 12:06am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

noodler · 06-08-2017 12:30am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

I'd have to say that someone who was the AO or HEO in an area for a couple of years is generally far better equipped to do the AP role regardless of getting a marginally lower score in a generic and subjective job simulation test.

Its common sense to me.

Doesn't preclude an outsider coming in and doing a good job, although likely requiring a long bedding in period.

bobbysands81 · 06-08-2017 1:24am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

Why blame successful candidates for faults you perceive in the recruitment process?

If you actually followed your own logic then you would resign from the Civil Service as you got the job ahead of better placed candidates because of the terrible way that PAS run their competitions etc...

Uriel. · 06-08-2017 10:50am

noodler wrote: »

I'd have to say that someone who was the AO or HEO in an area for a couple of years is generally far better equipped to do the AP role regardless of getting a marginally lower score in a generic and subjective job simulation test.

Its common sense to me.

Doesn't preclude an outsider coming in and doing a good job, although likely requiring a long bedding in period.

I don't agree with TT's position but what you are describing is not what competency based interviews are about. Knowledge of a particular role doesn't necessarily mean you have the skills required to do higher duty. Maybe you could go from HEO to AP in the same job and your knowledge will see you through and you might perform well, but eventually in the civil service you'll get moved around and the knowledge of a specific role is mostly lost and not transferable. Rather it is the skills and abilities (ie. The competencies) that are supposed to be transferable.

PAS is looking for those skills rather than your knowledge of a particular area of work. In those instances, an external person coming in might have the higher and better skills and once bedded in has a much higher skill ceiling that is transferable. That's what they want in our public sector.

Killer K · 06-08-2017 10:53am

dee75 wrote: »

That's it exactly. I'm external so they wanted a reference from my current employer (although they classed current as where you were in December 2016 when we all applied rather than where you are right now). Because I was self-employed at that time I had to get two client references instead which took about a week or so to organise.

I also had to complete the online vetting form but it took only two days for vetting to come back!

That's interesting that they stick to December 2016 rigidly. However, I can see the logic in it.

Everything appears that little bit more complex when you are self employed!

noodler · 06-08-2017 10:57am

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't agree with TT's position but what you are describing is not what competency based interviews are about. Knowledge of a particular role doesn't necessarily mean you have the skills required to do higher duty. Maybe you could go from HEO to AP in the same job and your knowledge will see you through and you might perform well, but eventually in the civil service you'll get moved around and the knowledge of a specific role is mostly lost and not transferable. Rather it is the skills and abilities (ie. The competencies) that are supposed to be transferable.

PAS is looking for those skills rather than your knowledge of a particular area of work. In those instances, an external person coming in might have the higher and better skills and once bedded in has a much higher skill ceiling that is transferable. That's what they want in our public sector.

I almost disregard the interview here to be honest.

The success rate in interview in this comp once you have passed exams and etray seems to be in be incredibly high.

However, I can say from experience that telling a good story on the day in a competency based interview, in my opinion I should say, is certainly not a good way of getting the best person for the job.

Uriel. · 06-08-2017 11:41am

noodler wrote: »

I almost disregard the interview here to be honest.

The success rate in interview in this comp once you have passed exams and etray seems to be in be incredibly high.

However, I can say from experience that telling a good story on the day in a competency based interview, in my opinion I should say, is certainly not a good way of getting the best person for the job.

There's no perfect way.
Internal interviews are every bit as bad and the complete disregard by the majority of the civil service for PMDS further accentuates the problem

noodler · 06-08-2017 3:47pm

Uriel. wrote: »

There's no perfect way.
Internal interviews are every bit as bad and the complete disregard by the majority of the civil service for PMDS further accentuates the problem

I can't agree with that.

At least in an internal interview people are shortlisted based on genuine experience and examples directly relating to the job.

They can also be interviewed on a similar basis with the board having a reasonably genuine ability to scrutinise this experience and examples.

I absolutely agree there is no perfect way though.

Uriel. · 06-08-2017 4:36pm

noodler wrote: »

I can't agree with that.

At least in an internal interview people are shortlisted based on genuine experience and examples directly relating to the job.

They can also be interviewed on a similar basis with the board having a reasonably genuine ability to scrutinise this experience and examples.

I absolutely agree there is no perfect way though.

That's not the case always in internal interviews.
I've had several internal interviews where the panel of interviewers knew nothing beyond what I had on the form. Sure your line manager has to sign off on it, but there's so much grey there that when you get to an interview you can fill in any gaps you want with made up experience. It's little different to the external panels. The role of the interviewer is to probe your examples for deeper understanding. If you are good at "playing the game" in interviews you'll generally be fine, but mostly what you'll find happening in internals is the candidate putting themselves in the shoes of their line management in the interview and portraying not their experience but that of their managers.

I don't believe that internal competitions produce better candidates at the other end of the filtering process than external competitions at all. I say that having been on both sides of the table.

noodler · 06-08-2017 4:48pm

Uriel. wrote: »

That's not the case always in internal interviews.
I've had several internal interviews where the panel of interviewers knew nothing beyond what I had on the form. Sure your line manager has to sign off on it, but there's so much grey there that when you get to an interview you can fill in any gaps you want with made up experience. It's little different to the external panels. The role of the interviewer is to probe your examples for deeper understanding. If you are good at "playing the game" in interviews you'll generally be fine, but mostly what you'll find happening in internals is the candidate putting themselves in the shoes of their line management in the interview and portraying not their experience but that of their managers.

I don't believe that internal competitions produce better candidates at the other end of the filtering process than external competitions at all. I say that having been on both sides of the table.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

I find that most internal interviewer panels will have had some interaction on a professional level with candidates who have, as is required, been working in the relevant Dept for a minimum of two years.

You won't catch me here saying external candidates don't cut the mustard or anything like that.

I am just saying, and reverting to my original extreme example again, that an experienced and more highly qualified civil servant being cut out because of a slightly lower score on a job simulation test than a civil servant with three months this experience or an external candidate with very little relevant experience can be quite unfair.

ThumbTaxed · 06-08-2017 7:55pm

Why are people comparing open recruits to internal recruits when this conversation came from a negative comment re interdepartmental recruits? Not comparing like with like.

How is someone going for a general civil service job and getting a position in social welfare without even knowing that the rate of dole is comparable to an accountant, say, going for an accountants position in Tulsa on an open competition.

There is no comparison and that is why promotion on interdepartmental is basically the dogs dinner of promotions and a nuisance to the country.

For those saying that pmds should be better enforced. Sure, maybe, but then tell yourself how fair it is for some randomer getting promotion to a technical role through interdepartmental and basically having an amnesty in doing anything useful while they lean on the other Aps in that department who may actually know what they are doing and thus carry the can

noodler · 06-08-2017 8:26pm

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Why are people comparing open recruits to internal recruits when this conversation came from a negative comment re interdepartmental recruits? Not comparing like with like.

How is someone going for a general civil service job and getting a position in social welfare without even knowing that the rate of dole is comparable to an accountant, say, going for an accountants position in Tulsa on an open competition.

There is no comparison and that is why promotion on interdepartmental is basically the dogs dinner of promotions and a nuisance to the country.

Because the conversation evolved and isn't limited to the parameters you deem acceptable.

Essentially.

CP30 · 10-08-2017 2:48pm

Any more progress through the panel?

relax carry on · 14-08-2017 11:03am

Just got an email for an interview in September for the third batch in this competition. How many vacancies are there if they are down to batch 3?

CP30 · 14-08-2017 11:35am

Yeah I got the email too which is great. If it's a 2 year panel I'm sure there will be a good few jobs before it expires.

NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

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