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14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

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12467…50

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    #92
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,988 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The fairest way is the Six Nations system. Which works if the teams in each division are consistent each year.



    I'm not sure if you're missing something or I'm missing something. You cannot alternate which games are home and away if the teams in each division are changing every year.

    You wouldn't alternate the opponents, just the number of home and away games. So Leinster have 4 BC home games this year, 3 the next, 4 the next, 3 the next, and so on. The actual opponents are then decided each year, either by random allocation or by some weighted selection system.

    I get what you're saying about fixing the groups, and doing a 6N style rotation on the BC games. I guess the risk with that, is that one conference develops into a conference of death, with the other presenting an easier ride to the playoffs/RCC. Allocating them them each year would help avoid this.


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    #93
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,296 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    You wouldn't alternate the opponents, just the number of home and away games. So Leinster have 4 BC home games this year, 3 the next, 4 the next, 3 the next, and so on. The actual opponents are then decided each year, either by random allocation or by some weighted selection system.

    I get what you're saying about fixing the groups, and doing a 6N style rotation on the BC games. I guess the risk with that, is that one conference develops into a conference of death, with the other presenting an easier ride to the playoffs/RCC. Allocating them them each year would help avoid this.

    Well your basic problem with this is what if your seeding system says that these 7 teams should be in the same conference, but it so happens that they are the 7 teams that were on a run of 4H 3A games the previous year?
    You can't do both the seeding and the fair schedule every year unless you get very lucky.
    Every second year for any seeding rejig seems fairer for what its worth imo as everyone will have played an equal amount of H&A games, and will have played everyone else H&A also.


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    #94
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,988 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Well your basic problem with this is what if your seeding system says that these 7 teams should be in the same conference, but it so happens that they are the 7 teams that were on a run of 4H 3A games the previous year?
    You can't do both the seeding and the fair schedule every year unless you get very lucky.
    Every second year for any seeding rejig seems fairer for what its worth imo as everyone will have played an equal amount of H&A games, and will have played everyone else H&A also.

    That's a fair point, yeah. Would also provide a larger sample of games to get a more accurate reflection of how good a team are. *cough* Connacht *cough* :pac:


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    #95
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Well your basic problem with this is what if your seeding system says that these 7 teams should be in the same conference, but it so happens that they are the 7 teams that were on a run of 4H 3A games the previous year?
    You can't do both the seeding and the fair schedule every year unless you get very lucky.
    Every second year for any seeding rejig seems fairer for what its worth imo as everyone will have played an equal amount of H&A games, and will have played everyone else H&A also.

    Yeah, that's what I'm getting at!


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    #96
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    dregin wrote: »
    It's a very short-term view that will ultimately fail, where nurturing rugby in countries closer to home would have a far bigger advantage in the long term.

    Unfortunately we don't have time for the long term. We are loosing the financial arms race. We can't wait 20 years. In 20 years only the C list players will be playing in Ireland if we continue on the same path. In poker terms we are in third getting blinded out of it so we are going all in on the only decent hand we've gotten in a while.


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    #97
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,369 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Unfortunately we don't have time for the long term. We are loosing the financial arms races. We can't wait 20 years. In 20 years only the C list players will be playing in Ireland if we continue on the same path. In poker terms we are in third getting blinded out of it so we are going all in on the only decent hand we've got.

    I don't think bringing in South African teams is going to solve that problem.

    IMO the first thing the unions should be doing to improve the image of the league and raise the standard is stop treating it like it's something to fill in the gaps between test rugby and european rugby. The christmas and new year derbies are a joke at this stage when they really should be among the biggest games of the year, and how many times through the season do we see first choice teams fielded?

    It's unsurprising that the league is falling behind when the approach taken toward it by those who run it is a bit half arsed.


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    #98
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,369 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    There is big money being talked about. Double TV rights at least.

    If it's not sustainable what's the point?

    This SA thing really has to hit the ground running. I don't see it working at all if the teams are dross for a few seasons.


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    #99
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    awec wrote: »
    I don't think bringing in South African teams is going to solve that problem.

    IMO the first thing the unions should be doing to improve the image of the league and raise the standard is stop treating it like it's something to fill in the gaps between test rugby and european rugby. The christmas and new year derbies are a joke at this stage when they really should be among the biggest games of the year, and how many times through the season do we see first choice teams fielded?

    It's unsurprising that the league is falling behind when the approach taken toward it by those who run it is a bit half arsed.

    There is big money being talked about. Double TV rights at least. It's a simple case of demographics. The population of people who care about rugby in the 4 current nations is too small.


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    #100
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    awec wrote: »
    I don't think bringing in South African teams is going to solve that problem.

    IMO the first thing the unions should be doing to improve the image of the league and raise the standard is stop treating it like it's something to fill in the gaps between test rugby and european rugby. The christmas and new year derbies are a joke at this stage when they really should be among the biggest games of the year, and how many times through the season do we see first choice teams fielded?
    That's not going to change whatever way the league is set up. Irish rugby is first and foremost about the international squad and provincial rugby prioritises the european competition because of the money it brings in.

    The Pro 12/14 has to compete with that and that means getting more money in.


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    #101
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    There is big money being talked about. Double TV rights at least. It's a simple case of demographics. The population of people who care about rugby in the 4 current nations is too small.

    I'm not sure I believe that. Purely because South Africans couldn't care less about our sides and they won't watch those games. I don't believe they'll bring enough viewers to justify doubling the TV rights for 2 games per week when the two sides are unlikely to make the playoffs.

    Also it'll be competing with the Currie Cup for part of the season and Super Rugby for another part I think?


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    #102
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm not sure I believe that. Purely because South Africans couldn't care less about our sides and they won't watch those games. I don't believe they'll bring enough viewers to justify doubling the TV rights for 2 games per week when the two sides are unlikely to make the playoffs.

    Also it'll be competing with the Currie Cup for part of the season and Super Rugby for another part I think?

    Oddly enough audience kind of doesn't matter sometimes. When you've x sports channels and you need to fill time slots and you also want to prevent your rivals getting the rights. Kind of like GAA on sky.


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    #103
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,369 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm not sure I believe that. Purely because South Africans couldn't care less about our sides and they won't watch those games. I don't believe they'll bring enough viewers to justify doubling the TV rights for 2 games per week when the two sides are unlikely to make the playoffs.

    Also it'll be competing with the Currie Cup for part of the season and Super Rugby for another part I think?

    There'll be an initial novelty factor but it'll wear off.

    I'd be all for this if it didn't mean coming up with these daft league models with conferences and all that. If we could still do the traditional home and away it'd be fine.

    I suspect we'll go to the Pro14 for a few seasons and inevitably we'll end up back at the Pro12. Either the South Africans will get fed up and give up on it, or it'll turn out they are liked and we'll get rid of the Italians.


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    #104
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Oddly enough audience kind of doesn't matter sometimes. When you've x sports channels and you need to fill time slots and you also want to prevent your rivals getting the rights. Kind of like GAA on sky.

    Nah, audience matters far more greatly than any other factor. And they attract a massive portion of the Super Rugby audience, I just think there's a greatly misplaced level of optimism of that translating over to Pro 12 rugby.

    As for keeping your rivals out... Its Supersport or the state broadcaster...


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    #105
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Nah, audience matters far more greatly than any other factor. And they attract a massive portion of the Super Rugby audience, I just think there's a greatly misplaced level of optimism of that translating over to Pro 12 rugby.

    As for keeping your rivals out... Its Supersport or the state broadcaster...
    Audience hasn't mattered to BT either


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    #106
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Audience hasn't mattered to BT either

    I assure you audience matters to those involved in their TV division to a huge extent, just not as much as things that are going on outside the world of TV altogether mean to others in their organisation. But now we're comparing (soon to be exclusive) Champions Cup and exclusive Premiership rugby rights in Europe to Pro 12 rights in South Africa.


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    #107
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I assure you audience matters to those involved in their TV division to a huge extent, just not as much as things that are going on outside the world of TV altogether mean to others in their organisation. But now we're comparing (soon to be exclusive) Champions Cup and exclusive Premiership rugby rights in Europe to Pro 12 rights in South Africa.

    I'm aware that audiences matter, I got distracted and posted half a post above. What I meant to say was that audiences aren't the only thing that matters it's important but not the only factor is the point I'm making.


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    #108
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    My understanding is that Allianz Park has a limit of 16 matches that can be played there. It may not be a runner for any SA games played there.


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    #109
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Winters wrote: »
    My understanding is that Allianz Park has a limit of 16 matches that can be played there. It may not be a runner for any SA games played there.

    Maybe Sarries will move more games in order to free it up to rent out


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    #110
    Brewster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Strong rumours that the new US based franchise will be based out of Washington from DC. Team to join at the start of next season. Will become a 15 team league if two South African teams join...


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    #111
    Hastentoadd
    Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭Hastentoadd


    Brewster wrote: »
    Strong rumours that the new US based franchise will be based out of Washington from DC. Team to join at the start of next season. Will become a 15 team league if two South African teams join...

    Find it difficult to believe that all this will be announced week/s before the new season schedule is announced. Maybe next season but this could not possibly happen within the next week or two behind closed doors. All of this could not fly so under the radar.


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    #112
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    At the end of the day season tickets have been bought, sponsorships have been agreed, stadium deals are in place and TV deals are in place for next season. As a result the only way they can realistically add the SA teams is to increase the number of games. And that won't happen. I cannot see any chance of them being added for the season coming. There's far too many blockers to it. League format, European qualification, travel, TV deals etc. All these things have to be ironed out.


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    #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    molloyjh wrote: »
    At the end of the day season tickets have been bought, sponsorships have been agreed, stadium deals are in place and TV deals are in place for next season. As a result the only way they can realistically add the SA teams is to increase the number of games. And that won't happen. I cannot see any chance of them being added for the season coming. There's far too many blockers to it. League format, European qualification, travel, TV deals etc. All these things have to be ironed out.

    Yeah totally agree with this.

    If it's realistically going to happen then the most I see happening this year is when pro12 teams aren't taking part in European rugby they may pick up a few fixtures against the incoming SA teams. Obviously there will be more teams available later in the season.

    They won't be fit into the regular season at this stage.


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    #114
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Especially not with the SA sides having already played a full season. They couldn't possibly do 2 back to back like that.


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    #115
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,369 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If they are dropped from super rugby and they don't enter the pro12 for the upcoming season that'll mean they'll not have any regular games for about 14 months. Even if they play Currie Cup, that's still October - September without rugby.

    How are they going to afford that, and how are they going to keep hold of their players in such a case? I would imagine the preference is to try everything to get them in next season.


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    #116
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,004 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    It would make a bit of a mess of the coming season but they could try organise the fixtures so that the same number of games are played home & away on the same schedule, but not everyone plays everyone else twice. Against some teams you'd get both games, against some you'd have just a home game, against some you'd have just an away game. Would facilitate season ticket holders, sponsors, TV, etc etc etc without having to change everything up or renegotiate/reorganise on a very short timescale.

    For the subsequent season then they could put proper organisation onto it. I'm sure all the contracts they sign with commercial partners have some sort of league expansion clause in them.


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    #117
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I'm sure all the contracts they sign with commercial partners have some sort of league expansion clause in them.

    Correct. There's absolutely no way in a million years that things like TV contracts and EPCR qualification don't take into account the possibility of the Pro 12 changing format, given the presence of the Italians.

    But even accepting that they'll have mechanisms to handle all of that, it seems incredibly soon to have them in for September. Maybe the Pro 12 teams could all make a commitment to play them once each between January and May if travel is sorted, but even that seems a pretty big undertaking.


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    #118
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    molloyjh wrote: »
    At the end of the day season tickets have been bought, sponsorships have been agreed, stadium deals are in place and TV deals are in place for next season. As a result the only way they can realistically add the SA teams is to increase the number of games. And that won't happen. I cannot see any chance of them being added for the season coming. There's far too many blockers to it. League format, European qualification, travel, TV deals etc. All these things have to be ironed out.

    This has been mooted (expansion) for well over a year now. I would imagine they have all the scenarios drawn up ready to go. It would be crazy not to


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    #119
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    There needs to be a lead in time for this. You can't announce radical change to the format of a competition less than 2 months before it kicks off. Below are the list of issues I can think of. I'm sure there are others. And while there may be talks going on behind the scenes and/or additional clauses that can help facilitate changes these are still issues that need to be addressed.
    1. Both SA teams will have completed a full season around 6 weeks before the start of the new Pro12 season. Players can't be expected to play 2 seasons in a row with just a 6 week break in between.
    2. Teams in the Pro12 qualify for the Champions and Challenge Cups. How would SA teams fit into this? There isn't room for 2 additional teams overall so how would they get added? Would they accept not being added? And what other issues then would it raise if they were at the expense of others?
    3. Travel is a major issue. You simply won't get supporters travelling from one hemisphere to another for a league game. They barely travel within the original Celtic League countries, let alone another hemisphere.
    4. Supporters have purchased season tickets for the season ahead for 14 home games. A conference system that reduces the number of games would require STHs getting refunds.
    5. Some teams, e.g. Leinster, have agreements in place re a minimum number of games at their home ground.
    6. All TV broadcasting rights and sponsorship deals have been done on the basis of the current set-up.
    7. What SA players will stay and what ones will move with this news? The 2 sides themselves are weak sides as it is, and could end up being made weaker by the move.
    8. Any changes to the structure of the competition will need to be agreed by all 5 Unions (7 if you include England and France due to European Rugby). We've already seen how long something like that can take. The season kicks off in 8 weeks.


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    #120
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    9. Wouldn't a lot of the South African players be signed up for Currie Cup which starts in a few weeks?


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    #121
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,369 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What's to say this stuff hasn't been organised for months now?

    I get the point that they can't play two seasons back to back with only 6 weeks break, but they also can't have 11 months break. The idea they go play Currie cup and then turn up for the 18/19 pro12 is surely a complete non-starter.


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