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14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

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13567…50

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    #62
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    awec wrote: »
    How can you do random home / away?

    Surely there has to be some rules around teams not being screwed out of home games? It's hardly fair if Ulster play 4 extra home games a season than Leinster for example.

    Pseudo randomisation, where you are guaranteed 3 home games.


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    #63
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    Is there something massively wrong with the current league or has someone just decided that there isn't enough money being made?

    It really doesn't feel broken to me, so why fix it? I had a good rant at them about German, Georgian or Romanian teams being a better option than SA in last week's survey. This really feels like they're diluting the quality of the league in a vain effort to get more in TV rights. It's a very short-term view that will ultimately fail, where nurturing rugby in countries closer to home would have a far bigger advantage in the long term.


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    #64
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,443 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    We're effectively talking of changing how the entire league works for what is nothing more than an experiment to test the viability of South African teams in our league.

    We have no idea if they're going to be any good, but the consensus seems to be that they probably won't be and we're just introducing more cannon fodder into the league.

    We have no idea how the travel is going to affect the fixtures.

    We've no idea how european qualification is going to work.

    All this and it's apparently happening for next season which is due to start next month?

    Just seems crazy to me, and I think there's a very high chance this lot won't last for more than a few seasons. It would be good if the pro12 could go a few years without changing something to try and build some consistency. Yes the standard could do with raising a bit but I think we should focus more on getting unions to treat it seriously rather than just taking in more teams.


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    #65
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Again, absolutely no way the IRFU will even consider splitting up the Irish teams.

    I will eat 4 million Munster scarves if there is anything like

    You are basically trading off 4 interpro games, in exchange for a far greater likelihood that your teams get into Europe. I wonder how that would balance out financially.


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    #66
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    awec wrote: »
    We have no idea if they're going to be any good, but the consensus seems to be that they probably won't be and we're just introducing more cannon fodder into the league.

    This is not true. If anything the consensus I've observed is that they will be of a decent standard.


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    #67
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,443 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    This is not true. If anything the consensus I've observed is that they will be of a decent standard.

    How? They're hopeless in Super Rugby and any of their decent players will be hoovered up by the remaining SR teams.

    Who is going to want to play for them?


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    #68
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    You are basically trading off 4 interpro games, in exchange for a far greater likelihood that your teams get into Europe. I wonder how that would balance out financially.

    But the Irish provinces not Connacht have no issue getting top 7 in the current format so you are reducing ticket intake for no tangible benefit.


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    #69
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    You are basically trading off 4 interpro games, in exchange for a far greater likelihood that your teams get into Europe. I wonder how that would balance out financially.

    Also trading away the games themselves, and games where the IRFU have control over scheduling and the strength (or lack thereof) of both sides are important to them.


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    #70
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    connemara man wrote: »
    But the Irish provinces not Connacht have no issue getting top 7 in the current format so you are reducing ticket intake for no tangible benefit.

    Under a system where all 4 provinces are in the same conference, it'll be much harder to get into Europe


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    #71
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    awec wrote: »
    How? They're hopeless in Super Rugby and any of their decent players will be hoovered up by the remaining SR teams.

    Who is going to want to play for them?

    Do you watch much Super Rugby? These teams can both play. They are playing a higher standard of opposition than in the Pro12 so it's not surprising they don't win many games. There's also talk of SARU committing to keeping Springboks at both teams as part of their deal to enter into the Pro12.


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    #72
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,186 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    I can't see how they wouldn't be eligible to join the RCC if they qualify, tbh. If we have now moved to league rather than union based qualification?

    Are they even baptised?


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    #73
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Do you watch much Super Rugby? These teams can both play. They are playing a higher standard of opposition than in the Pro12 so it's not surprising they don't win many games. There's also talk of SARU committing to keeping Springboks at both teams as part of their deal to enter into the Pro12.

    What Springboks?

    The Cheetahs have 1 Fringe player - Oupa Mohoje and the media are saying he along with several other of their better players are moving to the Stormers

    The Kings have no current Boks , they did have a few added to the extended squad this year , but none are capped..

    They will not be competitive, they will be mid-table at absolute best and will add nothing to the tournament from a Rugby point of view.

    No Boks or prospective Boks will want to play for them as by not playing against their opponents for squad places they will be at a massive disadvantage for selection..

    The only possible longer term upside for Europe here is that in a few years time the rest of the SA Super teams might want to come to Europe and leave Sanzaar to form some kind of European Super league.

    But other than a bit of cash , there's nothing in this for the Pro12 in my view.


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    #74
    conf101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭conf101


    I actually like the added excitement and interest that 2 SA teams could - potentially - add to the league. But I hate conference systems. US sports are built on conference systems, they work over there. But over here I think they destroy a league. It's not working well in Super Rugby and I can't see it working for the Pro 12/14


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    #75
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,757 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Again, absolutely no way the IRFU will even consider splitting up the Irish teams.

    I will eat 4 million Munster scarves if there is anything like

    Paddy Ashdown once thought like you...


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    #76
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Whats going to happen with the hinted at US/Canada expansion if this goes ahead?

    Whatever about the problems with having teams on 2 continents, 3 continents is surely just not feasible?


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    #77
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,757 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Do you watch much Super Rugby? These teams can both play. They are playing a higher standard of opposition than in the Pro12 so it's not surprising they don't win many games. There's also talk of SARU committing to keeping Springboks at both teams as part of their deal to enter into the Pro12.

    What Springboks?

    The Cheetahs have 1 Fringe player - Oupa Mohoje and the media are saying he along with several other of their better players are moving to the Stormers

    The Kings have no current Boks , they did have a few added to the extended squad this year , but none are capped..

    They will not be competitive, they will be mid-table at absolute best and will add nothing to the tournament from a Rugby point of view.

    No Boks or prospective Boks will want to play for them as by not playing against their opponents for squad places they will be at a massive disadvantage for selection..

    The only possible longer term upside for Europe here is that in a few years time the rest of the SA Super teams might want to come to Europe and leave Sanzaar to form some kind of European Super league.

    But other than a bit of cash , there's nothing in this for the Pro12 in my view.

    A "bit of cash" is pretty attractive for the Pro 12!


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    #78
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,757 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Whats going to happen with the hinted at US/Canada expansion if this goes ahead?

    Whatever about the problems with having teams on 2 continents, 3 continents is surely just not feasible?

    2018/19 for that according to reports.


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    #79
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    bilston wrote: »
    2018/19 for that according to reports.

    If it still happens, both of these expansions have kinda been separate rumors at least from what ive seen the last few months.

    Is it actually plausible both could happen?


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    #80
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Under a system where all 4 provinces are in the same conference, it'll be much harder to get into Europe

    But even in a split system the gate take will be down on what could be (we don't know how the split will work) a harder way to qualify. Imagine a conference of Leinster, Munster, Glasgow, ospreys, Blues, Cheetahs and Zebre, one bad run could easily see Munster or Leinster drop to 4th and into a playoff


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    #81
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    connemara man wrote: »
    But even in a split system the gate take will be down on what could be (we don't know how the split will work) a harder way to qualify. Imagine a conference of Leinster, Munster, Glasgow, ospreys, Blues, Cheetahs and Zebre, one bad run could easily see Munster or Leinster drop to 4th and into a playoff

    I make a specific suggestion on avoiding this very scenario in a previous post. Seed the welsh and irish teams on previous year standings


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    #82
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    I make a specific suggestion on avoiding this very scenario in a previous post. Seed the welsh and irish teams on previous year standings

    For every season or just the first?


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    #83
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    As an addendum to this, wasn't there talking that Zebre would be would up / replaced by a team in Rome? I haven't heard any update on this in awhile, a quick google search led me to a Cummiskey article from January - link here.

    Which includes the following:
    The current Pro12 television deal... ends after the 2017/18 season.
    Both Italian sides are bound to the league until 2020, but a break clause exists come 2018, just as the next broadcasting deal begins.

    Seems like they're trying to make some changes to the league in advance, with the next TV deal in mind.


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    #84
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    connemara man wrote: »
    For every season or just the first?

    My preference would be every season, but I'm not sure if I'd be alone on that.


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    #85
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    My preference would be every season, but I'm not sure if I'd be alone on that.

    But if the structure is changing every season how do you fairly split home/away games?


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    #86
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    What Springboks?

    The Cheetahs have 1 Fringe player - Oupa Mohoje and the media are saying he along with several other of their better players are moving to the Stormers

    The Kings have no current Boks , they did have a few added to the extended squad this year , but none are capped..

    They will not be competitive, they will be mid-table at absolute best and will add nothing to the tournament from a Rugby point of view.

    No Boks or prospective Boks will want to play for them as by not playing against their opponents for squad places they will be at a massive disadvantage for selection..

    The only possible longer term upside for Europe here is that in a few years time the rest of the SA Super teams might want to come to Europe and leave Sanzaar to form some kind of European Super league.

    But other than a bit of cash , there's nothing in this for the Pro12 in my view.

    Well the Pro12 clearly see the need to expand the league, so I'm glad they are least trying something. If you don't watch Super Rugby, I'd advise you try get to see either a Southern Kinds or Cheetahs game this weekend. You'll see for yourself that they can actually play decent rugby, and at the very least they won't be any worse than what we currently have (my prediction is that they'd both be challenging for RCC spots, but it's all contingent on what personnel they can hang onto).


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    #87
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    But if the structure is changing every season how do you fairly split home/away games?

    The structure doesn't change every season. The seedings is just to avoid a conference of death type of situation. Within conference you would then play teams home and away. Between conference you play 3 or 4 teams at home, and 3 or 4 teams away.


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    #88
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    The structure doesn't change every season. The seedings is just to avoid a conference of death type of situation. Within conference you would then play teams home and away. Between conference you play 3 or 4 teams at home, and 3 or 4 teams away.

    OK, but my question still stands. How do you fairly split up home and away games between sides if you're changing who they are playing every season?


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    #89
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    My preference would be every season, but I'm not sure if I'd be alone on that.

    That would turn awkward quickly. You can't guarantee a balance of home and away matches. Over the course of a few years.

    For me leagues should be simple. Look at the mayhem about the European qualification was like up until now ( now it's a meritocratic system). Now what's being proposed is a 2 conference system (now we know no deteil), with rotating teams season on season (now that's just you) for me I see commentators and journalists will be spending more time explaining what each match will mean and what for than talking about the match itself


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    #90
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    OK, but my question still stands. How do you fairly split up home and away games between sides if you're changing who they are playing every season?

    There is literally no way to fairly split up home and away games between sides, unless you implement a Top 14 schedule, which nobody wants.

    Under my proposed system, the within-conference games obviously take care of themselves as they are H+A. The fairest way to then balance the between-conference games, would be to rotate, almost like the Six Nations, where odd years you play 3 games at home, even years you get 4, or something like that. You could then simply randomly allocate the opponents, or weight them based on previous year's performance (almost like what they do in the NFL). I guess it would depend on how much arithmetic the audience will tolerate.


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    #91
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    There is literally no way to fairly split up home and away games between sides, unless you implement a Top 14 schedule, which nobody wants.
    The fairest way is the Six Nations system. Which works if the teams in each division are consistent each year.
    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Under my proposed system, the within-conference games obviously take care of themselves as they are H+A. The fairest way to then balance the between-conference games, would be to rotate, almost like the Six Nations, where odd years you play 3 games at home, even years you get 4, or something like that. You could then simply randomly allocate the opponents, or weight them based on previous year's performance (almost like what they do in the NFL). I guess it would depend on how much arithmetic the audience will tolerate.

    I'm not sure if you're missing something or I'm missing something. You cannot alternate which games are home and away if the teams in each division are changing every year.


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