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14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    awec wrote: »
    What's to say this stuff hasn't been organised for months now?

    I get the point that they can't play two seasons back to back with only 6 weeks break, but they also can't have 11 months break.

    Yeah, that's possible, certainly the cutting back of Super Rugby teams has been well flagged.

    But if teams have sold thousands of season tickets for next year on the basis of the existing set-up, it creates an issue if the offering is significantly changed.

    By all accounts, the Cheetahs and Kings will be officially dropped as of tomorrow, so maybe the Pro12 will be ready to go with an announcement after that. It just seems like a lot of hurdles to overcome.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yeah, that's possible, certainly the cutting back of Super Rugby teams has been well flagged.

    But if teams have sold thousands of season tickets for next year on the basis of the existing set-up, it creates an issue if the offering is significantly changed.

    By all accounts, the Cheetahs and Kings will be officially dropped as of tomorrow, so maybe the Pro12 will be ready to go with an announcement after that. It just seems like a lot of hurdles to overcome.
    Yep, logistically this is difficult and everyone is probably going to have to sacrifice something.

    At the end of the day though the unions run the pro12 and the unions represent their clubs. There can be no blocking this from individual pro12 clubs because they have no power to do so anyway.

    Also, I am wondering if the announcement is being delayed to after the Lions tour so that the Pro12 can maximise their media coverage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Molloyjh I am going to play devils advocate on you, all in the interest of good fun. Apologies for the TL;DR.

    1: They have completed a 15 game season, but they have no internationals and they won't be playing in Europe - and even if they did have internationals they would not be in the 6 Nations. So over the course of the pro12 season they will have some pretty decent rest periods where their whole squad will stay together. At least 8 weeks with no games between the season starting and Christmas.

    2: I don't see any reason why South African teams could not qualify for the CC out of the Pro12 allocation. In terms of the challenge cup, there would need to be some wiggle - not insurmountable and we have a year to work it out.

    3: Supporters don't travel anyway for regular league games. Only a few hundred supporters ever travel for away cup games. So I don't think is an issue.

    4: I think the rumoured format that I posted still includes 10 or 11 home league games. So some season ticket holders lose a match, but in return they get to see a whole new team (or two).

    5: Again, I imagine the RDS contract accepts that in any given year Zebre could go bust and we could only get 10 home league games.

    6: I think TV and Sponsors would only be too delighted to have slightly increased coverage. Guinness is served in South Africa! Sky Sports already have a good relationship with their SA equivalent.

    7: Those two South African sides could indeed end up weaker. I imagine many young Saffers grow up wanting to play Super Rugby. But many probably grow up wanting to make money, and maybe they feel playing in the pro12 will put themselves in the European shop window. So it could be a pull factor. Similarly, if you're a talented, impatient, youngster, at the Lions - and you missed your chance in Super Rugby this season. Maybe you'd be tempted to move.

    8: Unions can be a pain. But the Celtic and Italian ones are all pretty cash strapped - the issue of Europe can be kicked down the road. The South Africans are desperate so they will join even without a promise of Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    awec wrote: »
    Also, I am wondering if the announcement is being delayed to after the Lions tour so that the Pro12 can maximise their media coverage.

    The organisation that runs the Pro12 also runs the Lions right? I'd say part of the delay is the fact that the whole office is probably down in New Zealand right now.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The biggest problem with Europe is that the English and French clubs will have to agree to travel to South Africa for games.


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  • Administrators Posts: 53,127 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    errlloyd wrote: »
    The organisation that runs the Pro12 also runs the Lions right? I'd say part of the delay is the fact that the whole office is probably down in New Zealand right now.

    Yea, the Six Nations and the Lions are in the same building across the road from the RDS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    I really doubt the RDS is going to be a hurdle, it's fairly ridiculous to think it could be some sort of blocker on the structure of the league. Again the contract will be designed to accommodate this sort of stuff, and I'd say it's in place simply to prevent Leinster from moving 5 games a year to Lansdowne.

    Travelling is a non-issue for the reason given above, it doesn't happen anyway.

    Just because we've all been blindsided by this, doesn't mean the powers-that-be have been.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,947 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The more I think about this, the more I think the main revenue advantages to having the SA teams in the Pro12 are SA expats living in the UK, who may attend games in venues like Allianz Park, or up their subs to Sky Sports, etc.

    The Rand/SA economy otherwise being where they are, I just don't see how any significant money will actually come from SA itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Molloyjh I am going to play devils advocate on you, all in the interest of good fun. Apologies for the TL;DR.

    I'm the king of TL;DR so no apologies necessary! :D
    errlloyd wrote: »
    1: They have completed a 15 game season, but they have no internationals and they won't be playing in Europe - and even if they did have internationals they would not be in the 6 Nations. So over the course of the pro12 season they will have some pretty decent rest periods where their whole squad will stay together. At least 8 weeks with no games between the season starting and Christmas.

    That is true, but a lot will depend on the format the league were to take. But arranging that is a bloody awkward thing that in itself contains loads of issues. For supporters not to be stung it would need to be a 20+ game season. The SR season started at the end of Feb so you're asking the team to play 35 games in a little more than 14 months. And some of their players will have Currie Cup commitments too in that time. That's just too much to expect of players. Especially when we've no idea if or how many players will leave their squads and what extra demands will be placed on those remaining.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    2: I don't see any reason why South African teams could not qualify for the CC out of the Pro12 allocation. In terms of the challenge cup, there would need to be some wiggle - not insurmountable and we have a year to work it out.

    SA teams in Europe would require either a restructure of the 2 competitions or the removal of 2 other teams entirely. That alone is a big piece of the puzzle. They own't be able to qualify until 2018/19, but the mechanisms would need to be in place, or very nearly in place, before anything is finalised for the upcoming season.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    3: Supporters don't travel anyway for regular league games. Only a few hundred supporters ever travel for away cup games. So I don't think is an issue.

    Surely we want to grow those numbers though? Not keep them low?
    errlloyd wrote: »
    4: I think the rumoured format that I posted still includes 10 or 11 home league games. So some season ticket holders lose a match, but in return they get to see a whole new team (or two).

    See above re the impacts on the SA squads. Also, from the POV of the supporters, we're likely talking about 2 weaker teams.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    5: Again, I imagine the RDS contract accepts that in any given year Zebre could go bust and we could only get 10 home league games.

    Yeah probably, but it's still something that needs to be worked through. I'm not sure who, if anyone, else would have that concern. As for the Zebre example, we'd just move the Munster game back to the RDS in that case. No contractual clauses or changes required.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    6: I think TV and Sponsors would only be too delighted to have slightly increased coverage. Guinness is served in South Africa! Sky Sports already have a good relationship with their SA equivalent.

    They will unless it involves less games. And that links in with the first point above re the SA teams schedule.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    7: Those two South African sides could indeed end up weaker. I imagine many young Saffers grow up wanting to play Super Rugby. But many probably grow up wanting to make money, and maybe they feel playing in the pro12 will put themselves in the European shop window. So it could be a pull factor. Similarly, if you're a talented, impatient, youngster, at the Lions - and you missed your chance in Super Rugby this season. Maybe you'd be tempted to move.

    Possibly, but if you're a SA youngster with ambitions would you really want to play for a weaker side on the other side of the globe in an unproven venture? Especially if some of your home games will be 11+ hours from home as is being mooted?
    errlloyd wrote: »
    8: Unions can be a pain. But the Celtic and Italian ones are all pretty cash strapped - the issue of Europe can be kicked down the road. The South Africans are desperate so they will join even without a promise of Europe.

    The Celtic teams aren't so cash strapped that they'd do the turkey voting for Christmas thing. They'll still have strong positions on the whole thing. The Italians will want guarantees that they won't lose out on the league or Europe. And the SA sides surely won't be able to survive on Pro12 revenue alone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    SA teams in Europe would require either a restructure of the 2 competitions or the removal of 2 other teams entirely. That alone is a big piece of the puzzle. They own't be able to qualify until 2018/19, but the mechanisms would need to be in place, or very nearly in place, before anything is finalised for the upcoming season.

    Why? They've changed the rules in the Pro12 to the top X teams qualifying for Europe, how does Saffer teams make any difference to that?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Why? They've changed the rules in the Pro12 to the top X teams qualifying for Europe, how does Saffer teams make any difference to that?

    All teams qualify for Europe. Only the top X teams qualify for the Champions Cup.

    But there's a potentially very simple solution to this if there's a problem with the EPCR. The South African teams don't participate in Europe until there's an agreement.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Why? They've changed the rules in the Pro12 to the top X teams qualifying for Europe, how does Saffer teams make any difference to that?

    What about the next 7 teams there are only 5 teams in the challenge cup for the pro 12. So let's say that the 2 Italians finish 11& 12 and the SA teams finish 9 & 10 that'll mean there's not Italians in the challenge cup but there will be a Russian team


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    But there's a potentially very simple solution to this if there's a problem with the EPCR. The South African teams don't participate in Europe until there's an agreement.

    Yes, exactly. It's hardly insurmountable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I think the quick changeover from Super Rugby to Pro12 is solved by the fact that European weekends will be rest weekends, along with the AIs and Six Nations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    But there's a potentially very simple solution to this if there's a problem with the EPCR. The South African teams don't participate in Europe until there's an agreement.

    Yes, exactly. It's hardly insurmountable.

    Nobody is saying anything is insurmountable. These are still issues that need to be addressed and agreed though. Preliminary discussions would absolutely need to happen on that front so that the SA teams at least have some idea where they stand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    It was mentioned that there would be extra local derbies outside the conference games, if these were home and away, that would make a minimum of 9 home games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    stephen_n wrote: »
    It was mentioned that there would be extra local derbies outside the conference games, if these were home and away, that would make a minimum of 9 home games.

    Minimum of 10, maximum of 11.

    6 home conference games.
    1 home derby game.
    3/4 home games v other conference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    errlloyd wrote: »
    3/4 home games v other conference.

    How can that be guaranteed?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,749 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    stephen_n wrote: »
    How can that be guaranteed?

    There are seven teams in the other conference that you play either home or away. So depending on the draw you get either 3 or 4 home games.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 34,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    What if Zebre and Dragons went to the wall already and they're not announcing it until they have replacements?

    The Kings are a non entity in rugby terms. They have no history, only a couple of seasons of Super Rugby and get hammered constantly. They don't have many fans and they're not a wealthy club. Dropping out of top flight rugby would just be a return to where they were two years ago.

    The Cheetahs have more potential but nobody in their right mind is going to travel to Bloemfontein.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Dragons are owned by the WRU now aren't they?

    Wasn't there quite a large political movement behind the Kings getting into Super Rugby? I have only vague memories, but it sounds familiar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    stephen_n wrote: »
    How can that be guaranteed?

    The attached excel spreadsheet took longer to make than I care to admit. But it shows a 21 game season. In this 21 game season the following is true.

    The provinces and welsh regions all play each other, home and away once.
    The Scottish, Italian, South African teams, all play each other 3 times. 2 home, one away.

    Everyone in conference A plays everyone else in conference A home and away.
    Everyone in conference B plays everyone else in conference B home and away.

    Everyone in conference A plays everyone in conference B either home or away.
    Everyone in conference B plays everyone in conference A either home or away.

    The following teams have 11 home games.

    Leinster, Ulster, Scarlets, Cheetahs, Treviso, Ospreys, Edinburgh

    The following teams have 10 home games.

    Munster, Connacht, Blues, Treviso, Glasgow, Dragons, Kings

    EDIT: Okay, while not impossible. I clearly made one or two errors. I still think the concept is proved.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The number of teams is unfortunate for a conference system - having different numbers of home and away games is really not good.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    So season ticket prices will drop one of every 2 years? And the gate will go down one of every 2 years. Unless the TV revenue that comes in makes up for the shortfall which there no guarantee, the overall impact will be funds down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭death1234567


    having different numbers of home and away games is really not good.
    Meh, when there is a playoff system for the championship it's not really that big a deal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    having different numbers of home and away games is really not good.
    Meh, when there is a playoff system for the championship it's not really that big a deal.

    When there's seeding for Europe there is. When there are play off places on the line it is. That system works well Ina lot of ways but is also massively flawed in others. Glasgow for example get more games against Italian opposition that any other top team in the league. If, say, Edinburgh and Connacht were neck and neck for a Champions Cup place in all other games Edinburgh would have a massive advantage with the the weakest teams in the competition in their schedule more than Connachts. Ospreys get a poor Cardiff and a poor Dragons while the "easiest" derby game Leinster get is Connacht. It's not even close to being a level playing field.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,597 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    molloyjh wrote: »

    When there's seeding for Europe there is. When there are play off places on the line it is. That system works well Ina lot of ways but is also massively flawed in others. Glasgow for example get more games against Italian opposition that any other top team in the league. If, say, Edinburgh and Connacht were neck and neck for a Champions Cup place in all other games Edinburgh would have a massive advantage with the the weakest teams in the competition in their schedule more than Connachts. Ospreys get a poor Cardiff and a poor Dragons while the "easiest" derby game Leinster get is Connacht. It's not even close to being a level playing field.

    Glasgow have the same number of games against Italians as everyone else. They have an extra game against Edinburgh though.

    I know it's unfair, but I wonder is it anymore unfair than the status quo. Hear me out. We already have a situation where depending on what point in the season you play a club, they wield vastly different teams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,742 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Glasgow have the same number of games against Italians as everyone else. They have an extra game against Edinburgh though.

    I know it's unfair, but I wonder is it anymore unfair than the status quo. Hear me out. We already have a situation where depending on what point in the season you play a club, they wield vastly different teams.

    Ah sorry, I misread that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Sorry my post wasn't clear, when I said next season for the Washington team, I meant season 18/19. The club will play out of a new stadium being built in DC for the soccer franchise. Audi is the stadium's sponsor.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,724 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    errlloyd wrote: »
    molloyjh wrote: »

    When there's seeding for Europe there is. When there are play off places on the line it is. That system works well Ina lot of ways but is also massively flawed in others. Glasgow for example get more games against Italian opposition that any other top team in the league. If, say, Edinburgh and Connacht were neck and neck for a Champions Cup place in all other games Edinburgh would have a massive advantage with the the weakest teams in the competition in their schedule more than Connachts. Ospreys get a poor Cardiff and a poor Dragons while the "easiest" derby game Leinster get is Connacht. It's not even close to being a level playing field.

    Glasgow have the same number of games against Italians as everyone else. They have an extra game against Edinburgh though.

    I know it's unfair, but I wonder is it anymore unfair than the status quo. Hear me out. We already have a situation where depending on what point in the season you play a club, they wield vastly different teams.

    That's a fair point. If you play the likes of Leinster, Munster etc in April you know you are playing full strength sides brimming with international quality players. Play them in Feb or Mar and it's a different story.


This discussion has been closed.
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