14 team Pro 12 from 2017/2018??

CatFromHue

Good piece that and the author hit the nail on the head too. The reasons the Super rugby comp is failing look to be what the Pro12 are looking to implement, certainly if they eventually bring in an American team.


The fixtures look a bit confusing

Already, behind the scenes, a provisional format for a new Pro14 is being put together. There are different scenarios but the most probable is that the 14 teams are split into two divisions of seven - two Irish, two Welsh, one Scottish, one Italian and one South African.
They'd play home and away - 12 games. All the regular local derbies would exist on top of that. Instead of two rounds of the 1872 Cup between Glasgow and Edinburgh there would be three. Play-offs would continue and fewer games would be played in international windows.

So it'd be home and away against teams in your pool but if the 1872 Cup, the Scottish derby, is only going to be played three times how does that work for the Irish and Welsh teams who have more than one derby game?

LeinsterDub

CatFromHue wrote: »

They'll be better than the Italians but will probably be just mid table teams.

The league doesn't need anymore mid or lower table teams, we have enough of them as it is.

I'm pretty sure the definition of a league means you'll have a league table of teams. Expansion teams are never going to be competitive out the door but I do agree we don't want to repeat the Italian situation.

The only difference between the pro12 and the top 14 and the Premiership is they alternate their crap teams.

CatFromHue

My point is that we tend to have 3 or 4 crap teams but the Aviva and Top 14 tend to only have 1 or 2.

bilston

So two South African teams to join in 2017/18 and then two North American sides in 2018/19.

Even at the lowest estimate an extra £500,000 per team would basically equate to an extra £6m per year in TV money which would be a 50% increase (based on the figures in Tom English article anyway). That alone is a reason why this would be at active to the Unions.

I don't think we can really say how competitive they will be. I would imagine they will win most of their home matches and you'd expect them to beat the weaker teams away from home, so that alone means they shouldn't be far off play off contention. But time will tell.

I'm open to giving it a chance. I'm not sure if it will work. But if it leads to the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers joining in 3 or 4 years time then this could turn out to be a very lucrative move indeed.

LeinsterDub

CatFromHue wrote: »

My point is that we tend to have 3 or 4 crap teams but the Aviva and Top 14 tend to only have 1 or 2.

This year the bottom four teams in the aviva won 7 or fewer games, in the pro12 it was 6. Both leagues have had team finish on less than 5 points in years gone by. As I said it's a league there will be winners and losers

errlloyd

So based on piecing together the rumours. The format would be like this?

4 Irish
4 Welsh
2 Scottish
2 Italian
2 South African

Two conferences of 7, each with.

2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 South African

Each team plays the other team in their conferences home and away. (12 games).

They play the teams in the other conference once, home or away at random. (7 games).

They then play two additional games. For Irish and Welsh teams, this would be against the Irish and Welsh teams in the other conferences. For Scottish, Italian and South African teams, they would play their local rivals twice more.

This sees us get to a 21 game regular season, with each team having either 10 or 11 home games.

The advantages of this system.

1. Local rivarlies continue as they are big revenue earners.
2. There is actually a slight reduction in regular season games
3. We all earn more money.

The disadvantages of this system

• Teams have not played the same fixtures at the end of the season. For example, Glasgow have played Edinburgh three times, two Irish provinces will have played them once.
• Some teams will have more away games.
• Assuming the play offs are the winner of each conference v second in the other conference that is straightforward. But choosing the 7th Champions Cup qualifyer is not.
• Fans may find this format hard to follow and frustrating.

Additional points of note.

Of the 12 original teams, there are 3 in any given season who will not have an away game against the Cheetahs, and a separate 3 who will not have an away game against the Kings. To me it makes sense to play those six games in Allianz Park (if there is anything to that rumour). For the rest, the away South African games should be played in pairs.

This means that in a typical season the South African teams will definitely play 6 true home games against European teams each. They will play 3 "home" games in AP against European teams. And they will play 1 or 2 home games against the other South African team. In effect this would mean each current Pro12 team would only do one trip to South Africa every second year for two games.

Sangre

errlloyd wrote: »

So based on piecing together the rumours. The format would be like this?

4 Irish
4 Welsh
2 Scottish
2 Italian
2 South African

Two conferences of 7, each with.

2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 South African

Each team plays the other team in their conferences home and away. (12 games).

They play the teams in the other conference once, home or away at random. (7 games).

They then play two additional games. For Irish and Welsh teams, this would be against the Irish and Welsh teams in the other conferences. For Scottish, Italian and South African teams, they would play their local rivals twice more.

This sees us get to a 21 game regular season, with each team having either 10 or 11 home games.

The advantages of this system.

1. Local rivarlies continue as they are big revenue earners.
2. There is actually a slight reduction in regular season games
3. We all earn more money.

The disadvantages of this system

• Teams have not played the same fixtures at the end of the season. For example, Glasgow have played Edinburgh three times, two Irish provinces will have played them once.
• Some teams will have more away games.
• Assuming the play offs are the winner of each conference v second in the other conference that is straightforward. But choosing the 7th Champions Cup qualifyer is not.
• Fans may find this format hard to follow and frustrating.

Additional points of note.

Of the 12 original teams, there are 3 in any given season who will not have an away game against the Cheetahs, and a separate 3 who will not have an away game against the Kings. To me it makes sense to play those six games in Allianz Park (if there is anything to that rumour). For the rest, the away South African games should be played in pairs.

This means that in a typical season the South African teams will definitely play 6 true home games against European teams each. They will play 3 "home" games in AP against European teams. And they will play 1 or 2 home games against the other South African team. In effect this would mean each current Pro12 team would only do one trip to South Africa every second year for two games.

Hopefully they just follow the Super18 template, which has worked out really well.

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

So based on piecing together the rumours. The format would be like this?

2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 South African

Nah, no chance they are splitting the sides apart. It'll be 4 Irish together, 4 Welsh together and 2 together from Scotland/Italy with the Saffers split if anything.

I also very very much doubt they'd throw in 2 random games. They'd much prefer to just extend the playoffs and make it a 6 team, 3 round playoff system.

errlloyd

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah, no chance they are splitting the sides apart. It'll be 4 Irish together, 4 Welsh together and 2 together from Scotland/Italy with the Saffers split if anything.

I also very very much doubt they'd throw in 2 random games. They'd much prefer to just extend the playoffs and make it a 6 team, 3 round playoff system.

I agree with you. I am just formatting the rumours into a league. Although I'd note that in format I have above the Irish and Welsh teams still play each other home and away. The main difference is that in that format I have above, 3 Irish teams can still make the semi finals, under your format only two could?

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

I agree with you. I am just formatting the rumours into a league. Although I'd note that in format I have above the Irish and Welsh teams still play each other home and away. The main difference is that in that format I have above, 3 Irish teams can still make the semi finals, under your format only two could?

Well no, you can always have inter-divisional playoffs as in the NFL.

For example 3 teams can make the playoffs from a 4 team division in the NFL.

So you could have the top 2 teams in each division make the playoffs with a bye. Then you could have 4th in Div a play 3rd in Div b and vice versa in the first round of an extended playoffs (or just 3rd v 3rd if you want to shorten it a bit with 1 less bye).

connemara man

How does European qualification work in the 2 tier system? Another playoff? Top 3 from both sides and a playoff between the 4th placed teams disregarding the Saffers.

Isn't there a saying in PR that says when you're explaining you're losing well there's gonna be a whole lot of explaining in whatever happens. It's not as if the league has an image problem as it is

bilston

errlloyd wrote: »

So based on piecing together the rumours. The format would be like this?

4 Irish
4 Welsh
2 Scottish
2 Italian
2 South African

Two conferences of 7, each with.

2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 South African

Each team plays the other team in their conferences home and away. (12 games).

They play the teams in the other conference once, home or away at random. (7 games).

They then play two additional games. For Irish and Welsh teams, this would be against the Irish and Welsh teams in the other conferences. For Scottish, Italian and South African teams, they would play their local rivals twice more.

This sees us get to a 21 game regular season, with each team having either 10 or 11 home games.

The advantages of this system.

1. Local rivarlies continue as they are big revenue earners.
2. There is actually a slight reduction in regular season games
3. We all earn more money.

The disadvantages of this system

• Teams have not played the same fixtures at the end of the season. For example, Glasgow have played Edinburgh three times, two Irish provinces will have played them once.
• Some teams will have more away games.
• Assuming the play offs are the winner of each conference v second in the other conference that is straightforward. But choosing the 7th Champions Cup qualifyer is not.
• Fans may find this format hard to follow and frustrating.

Additional points of note.

Of the 12 original teams, there are 3 in any given season who will not have an away game against the Cheetahs, and a separate 3 who will not have an away game against the Kings. To me it makes sense to play those six games in Allianz Park (if there is anything to that rumour). For the rest, the away South African games should be played in pairs.

This means that in a typical season the South African teams will definitely play 6 true home games against European teams each. They will play 3 "home" games in AP against European teams. And they will play 1 or 2 home games against the other South African team. In effect this would mean each current Pro12 team would only do one trip to South Africa every second year for two games.

That sounds pretty complicated. I mean it's easy to understand when you take 5 minutes to read through it, but casual fans would take 5 minutes.

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

errlloyd wrote: »

So based on piecing together the rumours. The format would be like this?

2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 South African

Nah, no chance they are splitting the sides apart. It'll be 4 Irish together, 4 Welsh together and 2 together from Scotland/Italy with the Saffers split if anything.

I also very very much doubt they'd throw in 2 random games. They'd much prefer to just extend the playoffs and make it a 6 team, 3 round playoff system.

That makes more sense to me.

I was thinking 2nd plays 3rd at home in Play Off Quarter Finals and then the winners travel to the conference winners in the semi finals with the winners meeting in the grand final.

Neil3030

And if they want a further revenue spinner, have the two 4th place teams play off for the 7th RCC spot.

Playoffs for all!

bilston

Neil3030 wrote: »

And if they want a further revenue spinner, have the two 4th place teams play off for the 7th RCC spot.

Playoffs for all!

Even bring the 5th placed teams into it as well. That way you limit the number of dead rubbers towards the end of the regular season.

Although we still don't know whether the Cheetahs and Kings will be able to enter European competition. My guess is that they won't, but I suppose that will become clear IF this expansion is confirmed.

ClanofLams

This is gonna be an absolute clusterf**k. I don't like the conferences idea at all, it'll end up being very unfair if 4 Irish (3 of whom are routinely in the top 4/5 of the league) are in one conference.

Burkie1203

bilston wrote: »

Even bring the 5th placed teams into it as well. That way you limit the number of dead rubbers towards the end of the regular season.

Although we still don't know whether the Cheetahs and Kings will be able to enter European competition. My guess is that they won't, but I suppose that will become clear IF this expansion is confirmed.

Meritocracy would mean if they finish high enough then they have to be admitted?

Cant wait to see how ticket sales go for Cheetahs v kings pro14 final in cardiff next May.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

Even bring the 5th placed teams into it as well. That way you limit the number of dead rubbers towards the end of the regular season.

Although we still don't know whether the Cheetahs and Kings will be able to enter European competition. My guess is that they won't, but I suppose that will become clear IF this expansion is confirmed.

I can't see how they wouldn't be eligible to join the RCC if they qualify, tbh. If we have now moved to league rather than union based qualification?

connemara man

So in a conference system where it's 2 Ireland 2 Wales 1 Scotland 1 Italy 1 SA

Teams would play everyone in their own conference twice so 12 games.
Then play the other conference once so 19 games
then play in Irish terms the same country teams once more again 21 games.
How does the league work there? How do the 2 conference tables feel balanced in that scenario? The Irish provinces come out of that scenario with a far harder path to a potential final.

awec

Whatever the system the Irish teams have to play each other home and away every single season.

I am really not sold on this conference nonsense.

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

Whatever the system the Irish teams have to play each other home and away every single season.

I am really not sold on this conference nonsense.

Why? The interpros in the New Year are made redundant by the away team sending shadow squads.

Neil3030

Somewhere they will need to decide what's more important, a level playing field for all teams, or generating revenue from local derbies. Because as it stands, these two factors conflict with each other.

connemara man

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why? The interpros in the New Year are made redundant by the away team sending shadow squads.

Because they are the only sell outs for the Irish provinces outside Europe, so if this needs to increase money they can't be stopped

thomond2006

connemara man wrote: »

Because they are the only sell outs for the Irish provinces outside Europe, so if this needs to increase money they can't be stopped

True. From a pure rugby POV I have no problem cutting the interpros from 12 to 6 per season.

Neil3030

More I think about it, the more I'd prefer:

2 conferences of 7, each containing:
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scot
1 Italian
1 SA

Conferences are drawn up via a draw at the beginning of each season, with Irish and Welsh teams seeded based on their final standing the previous season.

So for e.g., based on last year's final standings, Munster and Leinster couldn't be in the same conference. Nor could Scarlets and Ospreys.

Then we do H + A with each team in your conference, plus either H or A with the teams in the other, decided randomly.

19 game regular season, with an extended playoff system: top 3 teams contesting in the championship playoffs, and 4th and 5th contesting in playoffs for the 7th RCC spot.

irishbucsfan

Again, absolutely no way the IRFU will even consider splitting up the Irish teams.

I will eat 4 million Munster scarves if there is anything like

awec

thomond2006 wrote: »

Why? The interpros in the New Year are made redundant by the away team sending shadow squads.

Because it's hardly fair to have it any other way from a financial point of view.

Especially when you consider Munster and Leinster will be kept together to ensure both teams get their biannual big paydays.

awec

Neil3030 wrote: »

More I think about it, the more I'd prefer:

2 conferences of 7, each containing:
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scot
1 Italian
1 SA

Conferences are drawn up via a draw at the beginning of each season, with Irish and Welsh teams seeded based on their final standing the previous season.

So for e.g., based on last year's final standings, Munster and Leinster couldn't be in the same conference. Nor could Scarlets and Ospreys.

Then we do H + A with each team in your conference, plus either H or A with the teams in the other, decided randomly.

19 game regular season, with an extended playoff system: top 3 teams contesting in the championship playoffs, and 4th and 5th contesting in playoffs for the 7th RCC spot.

How can you do random home / away?

Surely there has to be some rules around teams not being screwed out of home games? It's hardly fair if Ulster play 4 extra home games a season than Leinster for example.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

How can you do random home / away?

Surely there has to be some rules around teams not being screwed out of home games? It's hardly fair if Ulster play 4 extra home games a season than Leinster for example.

If there is an uneven number of teams I assume it'll be 3 home and 4 away rotating annually.

connemara man

Neil3030 wrote: »

More I think about it, the more I'd prefer:

2 conferences of 7, each containing:
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scot
1 Italian
1 SA

Conferences are drawn up via a draw at the beginning of each season, with Irish and Welsh teams seeded based on their final standing the previous season.

So for e.g., based on last year's final standings, Munster and Leinster couldn't be in the same conference. Nor could Scarlets and Ospreys.

Then we do H + A with each team in your conference, plus either H or A with the teams in the other, decided randomly.

19 game regular season, with an extended playoff system: top 3 teams contesting in the championship playoffs, and 4th and 5th contesting in playoffs for the 7th RCC spot.

19 games, so every year there will be a free weekend for some teams because of the odd number of matches