Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

allthedoyles · 12-06-2017 07:22PM

Good article here by Tommy Dunne for anyone wants to read an in-depth analysis .:

http://www.the42.ie/kilkenny-wexford-hurling-analysis-tommy-dunne-3438995-Jun2017/

Powerhouse · 12-06-2017 07:26PM

unrealtime wrote: »

Kilkenny have huge support. Club gates per head of population are well attended and way ahead of any other hurling county. Facts are facts.

Is there some database you have gleaned these facts from? Per head of population seems a very misleading model for comparisons as the GAA is usually weakest, relatively, in urban areas and you'd have to have 40k at a club match in counties with cities, for example, to bear comparison with a very handy crowd elsewhere.

DickoHara · 12-06-2017 07:40PM

bruschi wrote: »

I was actually surprised at how many Kilkenny fans started to leave the ground after Tompkins point just at the start of injury time. Granted it wasnt huge numbers, a few hundred or so, but was very visible. Not sure why anyone would leave a ground early when there is only the puck of the ball between teams.

I suppose people had a journey to do , on a negative side I thought it was bad out of the Wexford supporters booing Tj Reid in the second half taking the frees down behind the goal.

Irish Beef · 12-06-2017 08:42PM

Very surprised and disappointed in some of the comments being put up here. We as Kilkenny supports have had some unreal years, we celebrated 11 All-Irelands from the time Brian Cody took over, We cheered on probably the greatest team of all time. We all knew that when these players were gone they would be impossible to replace and there would be some dip in form. I just cant believe the way some of our so called Supporters are behaving putting up comments about hurlers of the Quality of Paul Murphy, saying he's only of Christy Ring standard, these comments only serve to make the writer sound like a spoiled ungrateful brat. Cant see how comments like these serve any purpose. Is that the way we behave, as soon as we struggle in a couple of games we turn on our team some of these players have 3 and 4 All Ireland medals in their back pocket. There's no doubt Saturday evening in Wexford park wasn't our finest hour but to think if one of Chris Bolgers goals had hit the net it was a draw. It'll take a bit of work but we still have some players with serious goal threat, We need to settle on a position for some of the players and stick to it. We could still win a couple of qualifiers and give these new players some experience and something to build on for next year, We need to give the likes of Chris Bolger, Jason Cleere, Ger Alyward, Liam Blanchfield a proper chance and build a bit of form instead of being so pessimistic. This Team owes us nothing.

Realt Dearg Sec · 12-06-2017 08:44PM

Irish Beef wrote: »

Very surprised and disappointed in some of the comments being put up here. We as Kilkenny supports have had some unreal years, we celebrated 11 All-Irelands from the time Brian Cody took over, We cheered on probably the greatest team of all time. We all knew that when these players were gone they would be impossible to replace and there would be some dip in form. I just cant believe the way some of our so called Supporters are behaving putting up comments about hurlers of the Quality of Paul Murphy, saying he's only of Christy Ring standard, these comments only serve to make the writer sound like a spoiled ungrateful brat. Cant see how comments like these serve any purpose. Is that the way we behave, as soon as we struggle in a couple of games we turn on our team some of these players have 3 and 4 All Ireland medals in their back pocket. There's no doubt Saturday evening in Wexford park wasn't our finest hour but to think if one of Chris Bolgers goals had hit the net it was a draw. It'll take a bit of work but we still have some players with serious goal threat, We need to settle on a position for some of the players and stick to it. We could still win a couple of qualifiers and give these new players some experience and something to build on for next year, We need to give the likes of Chris Bolger, Jason Cleere, Ger Alyward, Liam Blanchfield a proper chance and build a bit of form instead of being so pessimistic. This Team owes us nothing.

Hard for us to give Aylward a chance to build a bit of form when the management didn't give him a half hour!

minty81 · 12-06-2017 08:51PM

A thing bugging me today...
We won the toss but opted to play against the wind. Why? Tradition!
Cody has said before its just a traditional Kilkenny thing to play against the wind in 1st half.
But surely when you're playing against a team who employ a sweeper you need to try build a lead and have them chasing you in the second half rather than handing them the advantage and give them a lead to defend.

DickoHara · 12-06-2017 08:52PM

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Not surprised to read this thread and see some so called Kilkenny supporters turning on yere players. While Kilkenny is full of die hard hurling people, their is a also a huge amount of so called supporters who only come out of the woodwork come August or September. While Kilkenny has had probably the best team ever in the last decade it also had very poor crowds following the team until they got to the finals and the sunshiners would come out of hibernation. These sunshiners may not get a day out this year and think it's ok to abuse and belittle some amateur players as a result.

You have them in every county look at the lies rumours that was going on in Tipperary, I say kilkenny will allways have the same steady support for league championship down through the years. When Waterford started out first they had big support but it usually levels off after a couple of years.

Charlie69 · 12-06-2017 08:53PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Hard for us to give Aylward a chance to build a bit of form when the management didn't give him a half hour!

I said on here right after the game that taking Aylward off was a mistake, I'm convinced he would have taken at least one of those second half goal chances.

I don't go along with the thinking that he was taken off before he got sent off either, the incident that led to his yellow card looked accidental to me.I see Eoin Larkin calling it a mistake to take him off in his column today also.

minty81 · 12-06-2017 08:54PM

Also, John Fogarty in the examiner today writing that Kilkenny went dramatic and played a sweeper. How does a gaa journalist not know the difference between a team playing a 7th defender as an out and out sweeper and a team playing 6 defenders as normal and having 1 spare as you're against 5 forwards?

dobbs2210 · 12-06-2017 08:58PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Hard for us to give Aylward a chance to build a bit of form when the management didn't give him a half hour!

Here here.

minty81 · 12-06-2017 09:03PM

Is there an issue with the younger players coming through feeling the pressure of trying to live up to the greatest team of all time? They have the biggest boots to fill
So many uncharacteristic errors on Saturday, no composure and we just looked panicked

Dionysis · 12-06-2017 09:11PM

A number of folks don't like the sentiments being expressed here, which is there entitlement. Abusing players was never suggested, but I strongly feel they should be aware that there display last weekend is unacceptable, and I don't particularly care what others have to say here on that matter. The best teams including the kk team of the noughties held each other to account to a very high standard, and we're very open about there criticism. It's not the score, it's the attitude that is the most galling of Daturday nights performance. Some of the new comers on this side are used to capitulation to wexford - at U-21 level in 2014 by ten points to Wexford, or by 17 points in 2015. Seems like reasonable KK minor teams give up the ghost after they hit college years. These players need to be dropped off the panel. They are not going to raise it at this stage. The heads go down too easily and they have form at doing it. Better to go with the younger proven winners and get experience into them, like Donnelly, John Walsh, etc. I'm hearing about people complaining about turning on the players, and yes Cody made mistakes and he has his failings. But he won 11 all irelands, and that buys you a lot of grace. What have some of these newcomers done? There not even eager to hold there place down, no drive. P Murphy is having a mare of a 12 months, but he's been solid for the previous 6 seasons and that also buys him a bad season or two. Agree with the posters here who said pick players in there best positions and find replacements for the rest.

My KK team,
E Murphy
P Murphy
J Holden
A N other 1
P Walsh
Joyce
Buckley
C Fogarty
Wally
T J Reid
Donnelly
R Hogan
B Ryan?
C Fennelly
G Aylward

Subs:
Mick Fennelly
Prendergast
C Bolger
J Lyng
J Cleere
R Leahy
P Lyng
John Walsh
Tommy Walsh
Lester Ryan
Huw Lawlor

If Mick Fennelly is fit Donnelly is replaced at centre forward. Donnelly is not good or strong enough for this position yet, but time invested now will pay dividends with this guy. However, we are not going to win the All-Ireland, that's fact, so play these younger subs who will give there all and get better by the game. 2017 is gone, but we. An go a long way toward 2018 over the coming weeks.

unrealtime · 12-06-2017 09:30PM

That's the way I feel about the team next time out also

ttowncat · 12-06-2017 09:31PM

Anyone have any good links to watch the match back?

I'd disagree and say that aylward was gonna be sent off if he kept going the way he was(softly, rightly or wrongly).. he was stuck into every pushing and niggles event up his end in the first half. Also he reminded me of a not match fit henry shefflin picking up 2 soft yellows. it's a pity that he did have to come off as he obviously had the beating of his man.

Whilst kilkenny were bad and flat and poor (management moreso) as well as wexford being so good and up for it i still think they were unlucky and their bad display was exaggerated or compounded by a masterclass of tactics against them. I'm sure I'll get called out for biased sour grapes and blinkered but unfortunately that was a victory for sweeping and compacting midfield back(just as we all thought that waterford were thinking about evolving away from it!). We were clogged and swept up. You could say that wally and hogan barely hit a ball but i would think that if they did try to throw it up they wld be blocked and hooked!
In the second half wex focused on making the midfield look clogged and then just as Murphy's booming puckout came down the sweeper backtracked and became more obvious. Then on top of this we have emergence of to other Achilles heel of kilkenny- egg and spoon running, drawing a man and handpassing to the point where lee chin ran around in a circle rather than let the ball inside. The wex half forwards knew that the delivery would come low and short and alls they had to do was gather and lay it off to the runner to carry it another 10 yards.. i dunno what we expect joyce and co to do with that?!?

Whilst playing extremely badly i think we should have snuck it with bolgers chanced etc. It's a pity we didn't just sneak a draw or win like last years waterford game and make a statement that puke hurling wont ultimately win all the way.

Dionysis · 12-06-2017 09:36PM

ttowncat wrote: »

Anyone have any good links to watch the match back?

I'd disagree and say that aylward was gonna be sent off if he kept going the way he was(softly, rightly or wrongly).. he was stuck into every pushing and niggles event up his end in the first half. Also he reminded me of a not match fit henry shefflin picking up 2 soft yellows. it's a pity that he did have to come off as he obviously had the beating of his man.

Whilst kilkenny were bad and flat and poor (management moreso) as well as wexford being so good and up for it i still think they were unlucky and their bad display was exaggerated or compounded by a masterclass of tactics against them. I'm sure I'll get called out for biased sour grapes and blinkered but unfortunately that was a victory for sweeping and compacting midfield back(just as we all thought that waterford were thinking about evolving away from it!). We were clogged and swept up. You could say that wally and hogan barely hit a ball but i would think that if they did try to throw it up they wld be blocked and hooked!
In the second half wex focused on making the midfield look clogged and then just as Murphy's booming puckout came down the sweeper backtracked and became more obvious. Then on top of this we have emergence of to other Achilles heel of kilkenny- egg and spoon running, drawing a man and handpassing to the point where lee chin ran around in a circle rather than let the ball inside. The wex half forwards knew that the delivery would come low and short and alls they had to do was gather and lay it off to the runner to carry it another 10 yards.. i dunno what we expect joyce and co to do with that?!?

Whilst playing extremely badly i think we should have snuck it with bolgers chanced etc. It's a pity we didn't just sneak a draw or win like last years waterford game and make a statement that puke hurling wont ultimately win all the way.

Not meaning to disagree with you... but at last years all Ireland, I was shouting for KK to sit back and protect the full back and half back lines and leave space in front of our full forward line. That happened on Saturday to an extent and we did nothing?
Also, when was the last time KK were beaten in the tight on the ground every time? They were on Saturday? Poor skill levels on a lot of the players playing, the person who said that was right.

Wexford were in the faces of every KK player last weekend. This side is one of the softest I've seen since 2001. They need to grow balls and an edge to them. Wally was put off his game as was Hogan and Reid. KK need to start it the the next day as anyone seeing the last game will know what to do. To put us off. 2001 all over again.

In 2008, I knew Waterford were beat when they started before the ball was thrown in. That only riled KK up more. Especially Tommy. Being physical was the last thing you did to him.

ttowncat · 12-06-2017 09:45PM

Dionysis wrote: »

Not meaning to disagree with you... but at last years all Ireland, I was shouting for KK to sit back and protect the full back and half back lines and leave space in front of our full forward line. That happened on Saturday to an extent and we did nothing??????

Wexford were in the faces of every KK player last weekend. This side is one of the softest I've seen since 2001. They need to grow balls and an edge to them.

I think tipp had a fluid middle third last year that moved to where the play was giving them the tightness at the back to stop colin fennelly getting the better of james barry with pace and then tipp moved quickly up the field to offer spray around support for their forwards. I think maybe our two new corner forwards weren't being the first defender enough and that's why our half back line or some1 couldnt sit back in last years final.

jeff bingham · 12-06-2017 09:45PM

As good as I think Donnelly will turn out to be there's an awful amount of overrating going on. He would be ate alive by the mahers for example if we got Tipp.
This is by no means a critism of the lad but I think he needs at least another year training with the seniors anyway.

ttowncat · 12-06-2017 09:48PM

It's like a horror movie! 2001, 2005, 2013 and 2016 tactics against us all rolled into one!!

ttowncat · 12-06-2017 09:51PM

Dionysis wrote: »

Not meaning to disagree with you... but at last years all Ireland, I was shouting for KK to sit back and protect the full back and half back lines and leave space in front of our full forward line. That happened on Saturday to an extent and we did nothing?
Also, when was the last time KK were beaten in the tight on the ground every time? They were on Saturday? Poor skill levels on a lot of the players playing, the person who said that was right.

Wexford were in the faces of every KK player last weekend. This side is one of the softest I've seen since 2001. They need to grow balls and an edge to them. Wally was put off his game as was Hogan and Reid. KK need to start it the the next day as anyone seeing the last game will know what to do. To put us off. 2001 all over again.

In 2008, I knew Waterford were beat when they started before the ball was thrown in. That only riled KK up more. Especially Tommy. Being physical was the last thing you did to him.

I would say kk were beaten on the ground and rooks by waterford in the first match last year as well as recent waterford and clare league games..

ttowncat · 12-06-2017 09:59PM

Also i wouldnt be one bit surprised if galway choked with the favourites tag and wexford played well to win Leinster.

And if we could avoid tipp in the first qualifier draw just to give time for injurys to clear up and get sharpness into Mick F, P Walsh, hogan and aylward then it would be a great time to get tipp early! Whilst barret is out (he'll be back on the panel in no time! I think it's just michael ryan trying to create a cody like philosophy- no harm in scapegoatin an injured man!) Barret gives amazing cover to the lack of pace of barry and the mahers. Without him and a not match fit sharp Bonnar maher then tipp are there for the taking if we can get mick fennelly right and bolger and aylward in the corners

droppingball · 12-06-2017 10:12PM

Been full of praise after all donnellys performances this year but this is at club level. The above is correct it is too early for him, he didn't start for the 21s for one thing.

He is brilliant in the air but he is caught for pace so I feel half forward or centre forward is his best position because he struggles to be out in front in a foot race. And at half forward he reaps rewards from puck outs landing on him and he can finish as seen when he come on for under 21s.

That said he is not going to come in and sort our problems and its a lot to ask of him.

If he was further down the line it would take pressure of tj to win puckouts, but we need Walter to step up to do this not shoehorning in guys.

Having watching the game again, the lack of runners creating overlaps down the middle is alarming, Mick Fennelly and Eoin Larkin are big losses at this as they always take on the man.

Hard to believe we cut down the space between the half back line and full back line, held Conor McDonald, created loads of space for our full forward line and still performed so badly, would not have believed that all that could happen and we would lose the game.

C__MC · 12-06-2017 10:13PM

I cannot comprehend how Wexford suddenly have turned the screw and Kilkenny have become an average team. It's virtually both the same teams from last year, a mediocre Dublin beat Wexford out the gate. On paper, Kilkenny are a better team then Wexford, after all the Majority of this team won Leinster at a canter last year.

Agree with a lot of posters on here, lads need to be played in position and tactics need to be employed and improvements made on key areas. Kilkenny delivery of the ball is in fact terrible, bar fennelly very few of there forwards can take on a man and score. Always 2nd best to a breaking ball as well and there shape just disappears as the game goes on. Walter Walsh isn't mobile enough for the half forward line nor is blanchfield. Play them inside or drop them. I have been harsh on j Holden on other threads but he was An all star two years ago, let's see can he redeem himself. Richie hogan needs to play around the 40 where he does damage.

The draw from hell really is tipp, cork or Waterford. The pace and power in those teams (judging via league and sat night) would cut Kilkenny open like a knife through butter. The draw is key, a favourable could ignite there season. However like Brendan Cummins said, it's a huge ask to win 5 games straight on current viewing.

dubcat51 · 12-06-2017 10:18PM

My cup is half full not empty.cant believe people on here give us no chance on here and say we should build for next year on.championships are for winning leauges to experiment.bolger colin and awylard look full of goals for me.add in tj richie fit mick fen buclkey and we can beat anyone.murphy back to the corner and someoneoe for the other corner.lets get behind the team and drive them on.

Cornerback1 · 12-06-2017 10:35PM

Will the players be with county until next game?

Cornerback1 · 12-06-2017 10:45PM

As I said, we had no plan to deal with sweeper as we all knew that it was coming. We need a plan in place as we'll encounter it again this summer - if we progress.

There seems to be an awful loss in confidence this year. The final last year seems to have spooked us big time. In league games this year, we have been very shaky and unsure of what is happening at times.

As somebody alluded to earlier, we had the best team ever to play hurling the past few years. I was at JJ's Legend's Tour of Croke Park last year and he said on big games, it was the players who sorted things out on the pitch as they couldn't hear anybody 10 yards away, never mind the sideline.

We don't have the players now to make the decisions and the unsteadiness from the hammering last year still lingers!

phkk · 12-06-2017 10:45PM

Cornerback1 wrote: »

Will the players be with county until next game?

Yep, I would imagine so. I'd say the club scene will be put on hold now

kilkennyboy · 12-06-2017 11:00PM

The players of the level we are used to seeing
Are not their any more you just have to go to club games .we were spoilt best forward in county final last year was gorta.
Now i thought coady was probaly right
Going with walsh in the forward s. It showed intent .if hiš wideš go over it's a masterstroke
Ger alyward like wise we were doing all the hurling but not finishing.
In the league we saw leahy and pat lyng two for the future but both picked up niggles and will learn and improve.
Talk of john donnelly is nonsence way to early.
Still think joey is ahead of lennon and o shea.
As bad as thing went on the night we butchered at least 3 goal chances throw in the early wides and its a different discussion on here.
In a practice game in carton house richie reid was outstanding at wingforward that is where that came from.

The few things that are still eating me are

Buckly not following chin
He took over the game
Alyward being subed
We had a balance when he and colin were together in the first half he just needed to settle on it and draw a man or look back out the field
For runners.
Wally being so poor allstar last year and struggling so much this year.
As for wexford they are conceding so many goal chances they could be on the end of 5 goals against galway.and wont score that much.
A win against us might paper over cracks.
I hope we play lads in their best positions the next day get a few lads back drive on in training
And give whoever we get a real test .wexford were waiting six months for us after all.

Village87 · 13-06-2017 09:54AM

Whats the story with the qualifier draw? Are Munster and Leinster teams kept apart ?

usualstripes · 13-06-2017 10:54AM

I would never put anyone down like some here about playing for the county. I understand some are not up to this level and if that's the case, which it is, we need to look elsewhere. As previously stated roBert lennon and conor o shea are fine hurlers but are not up to this level.
The likes of cleere, delaney and cody have to get games to see if they will bridge that gap.
Probably one of the best hurlers at intermediate grade over the last few years is pat hartley from tullogher. The problem with that is he is on 30 atm but would still be far better than the two aforementioned.He is as fit as a 22 year old, has pace to burn, the best fielder in intermediate and no shortage of skill. Unfortunately he won't get his chance now but we have to go with lads that are up to the speed required and utilise what talent we do have around the county albeit the standard had dropped over the last 5 years

dastardly00 · 13-06-2017 11:06AM

Village87 wrote: »

Whats the story with the qualifier draw? Are Munster and Leinster teams kept apart ?

Round 1 is essentially Munster vs Leinster.

Preliminary Round:

Firstly, there is the Preliminary Round, which is Laois v Carlow (Sunday June 25th @ 3.30pm in O'Moore Park, Portlaoise). The winners go through to Qualifier Round 1.

Round 1 (Saturday July 1st):
Prior to the main draw, Westmeath and the winners of Carlow/Laois will be randomly assigned to the Munster/Leinster 'bowls'.

The Munster bowl will consist of:

Tipperary
Limerick
Losers of Waterford/Cork
Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

The Leinster bowl will consist of:

Dublin
Kilkenny
Losers of Offaly/Galway
Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

Team from Munster bowl will play against team from Leinster bowl in Round 1.
Repeat pairings cannot occur, so If Laois beat Carlow, then Laois & Westmeath cannot meet each other.

So at the moment KK could play: Tipperary, Limerick, losers of Waterford/Cork, winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath.

Round 2 (Saturday July 8th):
Winners of Round 1 go through to Round 2.
Round 2 is an open draw, but repeat pairings cannot occur.
Winners of Round 2 go through to AI Quarter-Finals.

I'm open to correction on any of the above.

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*