Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

unrealtime

Lack of thinking keeps fellows like Pat Hartley from getting a chance. We did not need him for years as we had better players available to us. But fellows like Joyce and Prendergast were old enough before they played. One was good, the other wasn't. If Pat Hartley is as fit as you say, then he deserves a chance. I have seen him play a few times and he has always been terrific.

What about Hennebry in the full forward position. Is he good enough - looks okay to me.

Village87

usualstripes wrote: »

I would never put anyone down like some here about playing for the county. I understand some are not up to this level and if that's the case, which it is, we need to look elsewhere. As previously stated roBert lennon and conor o shea are fine hurlers but are not up to this level.
The likes of cleere, delaney and cody have to get games to see if they will bridge that gap.
Probably one of the best hurlers at intermediate grade over the last few years is pat hartley from tullogher. The problem with that is he is on 30 atm but would still be far better than the two aforementioned.He is as fit as a 22 year old, has pace to burn, the best fielder in intermediate and no shortage of skill. Unfortunately he won't get his chance now but we have to go with lads that are up to the speed required and utilise what talent we do have around the county albeit the standard had dropped over the last 5 years

Seen Hartley 3 r 4 times, speed, loads of aggression, a leader, clever on the ball, already has most things we are lacking in our backs.

I cant think of two many others really sticking out John Dalton maybe but he looks like his now as fit as once was.

Village87

dastardly00 wrote: »

Round 1 is essentially Munster vs Leinster.

Preliminary Round:

Firstly, there is the Preliminary Round, which is Laois v Carlow (Sunday June 25th @ 3.30pm in O'Moore Park, Portlaoise). The winners go through to Qualifier Round 1.

Round 1 (Saturday July 1st):
Prior to the main draw, Westmeath and the winners of Carlow/Laois will be randomly assigned to the Munster/Leinster 'bowls'.

The Munster bowl will consist of:

• Tipperary
• Limerick
• Losers of Waterford/Cork
• Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

The Leinster bowl will consist of:

• Dublin
• Kilkenny
• Losers of Offaly/Galway
• Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

Team from Munster bowl will play against team from Leinster bowl in Round 1.
Repeat pairings cannot occur, so If Laois beat Carlow, then Laois & Westmeath cannot meet each other.

So at the moment KK could play: Tipperary, Limerick, losers of Waterford/Cork, winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath.

Round 2 (Saturday July 8th):
Winners of Round 1 go through to Round 2.
Round 2 is an open draw, but repeat pairings cannot occur.
Winners of Round 2 go through to AI Quarter-Finals.

I'm open to correction on any of the above.

Thanks Dastardly, if thats the case i hope Waterford win the weekend, would fancy our chances v them over Waterford

babyjesus14

Village87 wrote: »

Seen Hartley 3 r 4 times, speed, loads of aggression, a leader, clever on the ball, already has most things we are lacking in our backs.

I cant think of two many others really sticking out John Dalton maybe but he looks like his now as fit as once was.

Seriously please tell me you are joking? Pat Hartley and John Dalton are 32! You have seen Hartley 3 or 4 times doing what? Playing Intermediate club i assume. Pat Hartley was tried out in the League 7 or 8 years ago , i think against Galway, and was taken off at half time because he was completely out of his depth.

Village87

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Seriously please tell me you are joking? Pat Hartley and John Dalton are 32! You have seen Hartley 3 or 4 times doing what? Playing Intermediate club i assume. Pat Hartley was tried out in the League 7 or 8 years ago , i think against Galway, and was taken off at half time because he was completely out of his depth.

John Dalton has 2 or 3 years on him im sure, look i probably agree with you about going back to lads who are already tried. Its not just Hartley probably others around the County too

So be it, if anyone is going well with his club get him in, Mark Bergin got his chance last year and didnt take it, what have Kilkenny got to lose, Kilkenny need 3 r 4 backs, a bit of speed, quality, aggression, its clearly not there, lads like Murphy have been terrible all year and start every match.

kk.man

Village87 wrote: »

John Dalton has 2 or 3 years on him im sure, look i probably agree with you about going back to lads who are already tried. Its not just Hartley probably others around the County too

So be it, if anyone is going well with his club get him in, Mark Bergin got his chance last year and didnt take it, what have Kilkenny got to lose, Kilkenny need 3 r 4 backs, a bit of speed, quality, aggression, its clearly not there, lads like Murphy have been terrible all year and start every match.

I cant see the reasoning bringing in lads now...all inter county teams are at a certain level thus these lads would be far off the pace. Having said that a couple of players last Saturday evening had little training or matches under their belt which is very wrong for a hurling county like Kilkenny.

Village87

kk.man wrote: »

I cant see the reasoning bringing in lads now...all inter county teams are at a certain level thus these lads would be far off the pace. Having said that a couple of players last Saturday evening had little training or matches under their belt which is very wrong for a hurling county like Kilkenny.

Something has to be done now to save this year. I dont have any solutions im afraid. Some changes have to be made:

Eoin Murphy

C Delaney K Joyce C Fogarty

P Walsh Rob Lennon J Cleere

M Fennelly C Buckley

W Walsh R Hogan K Kelly

TJ Reid C Fennelly G Aylward

2/3 players short, badly need a presence in the half back line.
Buckley could be great midfield.
Id try TJ inside getting bottled out the field and asked to do to much,

Anyone else instead of Kevin Kelly ?

Dionysis

Village87 wrote: »

Something has to be done now to save this year. I dont have any solutions im afraid. Some changes have to be made:

Eoin Murphy

C Delaney K Joyce C Fogarty

P Walsh Rob Lennon J Cleere

M Fennelly C Buckley

W Walsh R Hogan K Kelly

TJ Reid C Fennelly G Aylward

2/3 players short, badly need a presence in the half back line.
Buckley could be great midfield.
Id try TJ inside getting bottled out the field and asked to do to much,

Anyone else instead of Kevin Kelly ?

Mick Fennelly is finished. Don't think he'll play much for KK again if at all.
The all Ireland is gone, you cannot win from where we are, unproven people playing very poorly, not just once but through the league and into the championship.

E Murphy
P murphy
Holden
J Cleere/ Joe Lyng
Walsh
Joyce
Buckley
Wally
Fogarty
TJ
An other
Hogan
Aylward
Fennelly
C Bolger

Subs:
R Leahy
P Lyng
Donnelly
Prendergast
Lester


If Mick Fennelly does make it the centre forward he goes.

dastardly00

Dionysis wrote: »

Mick Fennelly is finished. Don't think he'll play much for KK again if at all.
The all Ireland is gone, you cannot win from where we are, unproven people playing very poorly, not just once but through the league and into the championship.

Both unproven AND proven people playing very poorly.

Village87

dastardly00 wrote: »

Both unproven AND proven people playing very poorly.

I agree with Dastardly,

Look a few big names have to be dropped who are not performing, its the only way to shake and freshen things up.

Cody always did it in the past and it worked, Murphy, Fogarty lesser degree Walsh could do a spell on the bench

dobbs2210

Has Mark Bergin left the panel? Very harse that he hasn't made the panel for the game last Saturday.

Heard he didn't even get asked to a meeting the week of the game.

Incredibly bad management if that's the case as I believe it to be.

He is captain at end of the day.

Village87

dobbs2210 wrote: »

Has Mark Bergin left the panel? Very harse that he hasn't made the panel for the game last Saturday.

Heard he didn't even get asked to a meeting the week of the game.

Incredibly bad management if that's the case as I believe it to be.

He is captain at end of the day.

The whole thing stinks.. Lot of players only care about there own profile and performance going on Saturday, not working for each other.

babyjesus14

Village87 wrote: »

John Dalton has 2 or 3 years on him im sure, look i probably agree with you about going back to lads who are already tried. Its not just Hartley probably others around the County too

So be it, if anyone is going well with his club get him in, Mark Bergin got his chance last year and didnt take it, what have Kilkenny got to lose, Kilkenny need 3 r 4 backs, a bit of speed, quality, aggression, its clearly not there, lads like Murphy have been terrible all year and start every match.

Pat Harley is 32, he was on the '04 Minor team. You admit the experiment in bringing back Mark Bergin didn't work yet you are advocating bringing back a man 5 years older and playing at a lower level on the grounds that he looks good playing Intermediate club hurling! Bizarre.

The simple fact of the matter is the talent just isn't there at the moment. That's the way sport works, it goes in cycles, it's nobody's fault. What we should be doing is looking to guys like Conor Delaney, Jason Cleere, Conor Doheny, Tommy Walsh, Richie Leahy, Billy Ryan, John Donnelly and further down the food chain the likes of Adrian Mullen, Mossy Keoghan Niall Brassil over the next year or two.

We might get lucky with a favourable draw and have a chance to get a bit of game time into the likes of Padraig Walsh, Kevin Kelly, Ger Alyward and Mick Fennelly and build up a head of steam and make it to Croke Park but to be honest that would be a bonus, it's time to start building for the future.

babyjesus14

Village87 wrote: »

The whole thing stinks.. Lot of players only care about there own profile and performance going on Saturday, not working for each other.

What whole thing stinks?

Village87

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Pat Harley is 32, he was on the '04 Minor team. You admit the experiment in bringing back Mark Bergin didn't work yet you are advocating bringing back a man 5 years older and playing at a lower level on the grounds that he looks good playing Intermediate club hurling! Bizarre.

The simple fact of the matter is the talent just isn't there at the moment. That's the way sport works, it goes in cycles, it's nobody's fault. What we should be doing is looking to guys like Conor Delaney, Jason Cleere, Conor Doheny, Tommy Walsh, Richie Leahy, Billy Ryan, John Donnelly and further down the food chain the likes of Adrian Mullen, Mossy Keoghan Niall Brassil over the next year or two.

We might get lucky with a favourable draw and have a chance to get a bit of game time into the likes of Padraig Walsh, Kevin Kelly, Ger Alyward and Mick Fennelly and build up a head of steam and make it to Croke Park but to be honest that would be a bonus, it's time to start building for the future.

I was advocating that Mark Bergin got his chance when called back in and started and All Ireland Semi Final, some might work, others may not. Other members on the forum brought up the idea of calling Pat Harley back based on performances recently, i supported the idea of keeping options open at the moment for any player that can improve the team. Competition of some sort is needed if that means calling in older players then try it.

John Dalton was on the minor team of 03, Pat Hartley was on the minor team of 05 which was beat in the first round by Dublin if my memory serves me right.

1984baby

dobbs2210 wrote: »

Has Mark Bergin left the panel? Very harse that he hasn't made the panel for the game last Saturday.

Heard he didn't even get asked to a meeting the week of the game.

Incredibly bad management if that's the case as I believe it to be.

He is captain at end of the day.

Only the 26 players named on the programme were at that meeting. All other panel members did not attend.

babyjesus14

Village87 wrote: »

I was advocating that Mark Bergin got his chance when called back in and started and All Ireland Semi Final, some might work, others may not. Other members on the forum brought up the idea of calling Pat Harley back based on performances recently, i supported the idea of keeping options open at the moment for any player that can improve the team. Competition of some sort is needed if that means calling in older players then try it.

John Dalton was on the minor team of 03, Pat Hartley was on the minor team of 05 which was beat in the first round by Dublin if my memory serves me right.

Sorry, i apologise it was the '03 team that they were both on. Pat Hartley was not on the '05 Minor team, so your memory doesn't serve you right! He's 32.

danganabu

DickoHara wrote: »

You have them in every county look at the lies rumours that was going on in Tipperary

To be fair that was all instigated in Offaly, but I do agree with the idea that they exist in every county and by its very nature they are more in extreme in the successful counties, remember the very colourful description of the Kerry football supporters a few years back!!

Dionysis

dastardly00 wrote: »

Both unproven AND proven people playing very poorly.

My point was that for proven players, at least you know they are up to it, whereas with unproven players you don't even know if they'll come good and therefore you don't think that things will get good enough to win an All Ireland.

And I would agree with dropping players, but then you are definitely planning for next year.

Village87

is 3 weeks sufficient time to get, all the injured party back ?

dastardly00

Dionysis wrote: »

My point was that for proven players, at least you know they are up to it, whereas with unproven players you don't even know if they'll come good and therefore cannot

Unproven players are always going to be a gamble and every team has to except that not all unproven players will succeed.

But when the proven players (P Murphy, Joyce, Fogarty, Wally, Hogan, TJ, C Fennelly) are all playing poorly, then we're really up sh*t creek with a paddle.

dastardly00

Village87 wrote: »

is 3 weeks sufficient time to get, all the injured party back ?

Mick Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Richie Hogan

Anyone else?

Poor Mick Fennelly could be in perfect condition for the next two and a half weeks and then be crocked the day before the match. We're better off planning without him.

I'd say Padraig Walsh should be okay. Although his confidence must have taken a bashing on Saturday.

Richie Hogan I'm worried about. He seems to always have issues with his back & legs. He was stretching his calves/hamstrings in the second half of the Wexford match whenever there was a break in play. It seemed like he wasn't able to fully commit to tackling etc. A long summer of rest may be the best thing for him.

Village87

dastardly00 wrote: »

Mick Fennelly
Padraig Walsh
Richie Hogan

Anyone else?

Poor Mick Fennelly could be in perfect condition for the next two and a half weeks and then be crocked the day before the match. We're better off planning without him.

I'd say Padraig Walsh should be okay. Although his confidence must have taken a bashing on Saturday.

Richie Hogan I'm worried about. He seems to always have issues with his back & legs. He was stretching his calves/hamstrings in the second half of the Wexford match whenever there was a break in play. It seemed like he wasn't able to fully commit to tackling etc. A long summer of rest may be the best thing for him.

TJ 30 this year,

Richie Hogan 29 or 30 soon

Fennelly 33 next birthday,

Time is catching up on these,

TJ seems in the best order but the poor lad is carrying 2 or 3 lads

dastardly00

Village87 wrote: »

TJ 30 this year,

Richie Hogan 29 or 30 soon

Fennelly 33 next birthday,

Time is catching up on these,

TJ seems in the best order but the poor lad is carrying 2 or 3 lads

The 30 bracket isn't that old but..
Maybe it's a bit like Wayne Rooney... a combination of getting older and the accumulation of the years in which they were playing at the very top-level. There's a lot of miles in the their legs.

unrealtime

All young men ffs. Hogan seems to have hamstring problems for a number of years. I wonder why hamstrings can't be sorted. No hamstring problems in my time; think it's connected someway with training methods today.

Realt Dearg Sec

babyjesus14 wrote: »

That's the way sport works, it goes in cycles, it's nobody's fault.

Just want to go back up on this point. While I agree the talent may not be there right now, and certainly the talent that was there a few years back may never be seen again, I wouldn't go so far as to agree with this often-repeated idea that sport simply goes in cycles and that's it (and before I start this rant, just know I'm not having a go at you at all, I understand what you meant by the comment, that the expectations people have are too high because of how spoiled we were before).

If it's nobody's fault that we aren't good enough right now, then it follows that it was to nobody's credit that we were good before. That doesn't add up, to me. The teams of the 2002-2012 period didn't just happen out of thin air. Sure there were uniquely talented lads in there, but it was also the product of a county board response to a perceived crisis at underage level, Cody's own massive reform of the senior set up after defeat to Galway in 2001, a renewed county-wide interest in encouraging underage participation and so on. That wasn't going to be sustainable forever, but it didn't just happen because of a natural cycle (if it did Limerick would have won something at senior off those three in a row under 21 teams), there was a lot of factors that came together to take advantage of the great players that came along, involving a lot of hard work and serious innovation that made us the envy of every other county. Not that I would want to be pointing a finger of blame at people for our decline since, but just washing our hands of it, saying that it's the natural cycle and it's nobody's fault and lying down accepting it, that won't cut it either.

We need a similar revolution to the one that happened in the late nineties and early 2000s, at underage and senior level, to revamp all aspects of our approach. Because clearly there are several things broken right now. The minor teams have been one thing, but under 21 is clearly in a bad way at the moment (maybe things are changing, last year might have been the kick in the hole we needed). The newer players coming into senior are not as driven as they were before either. At senior level we've seen a drop off in the stick work of our inter county players, their positional sense as well. And tactically we are all over the map right now.

These are all perfectly fixable problems, whether in the medium or the longer term. There's nothing natural or inevitable about the current mediocrity and if I know anything about Kilkenny GAA, they won't be sitting on their ar$es waiting for the wheel to turn back their way like Cork spent the last decade and a half doing.

dastardly00

I think we've found a replacement for Dr. Tadhg Crowley :rolleyes:

unrealtime wrote: »

All young men ffs. Hogan seems to have hamstring problems for a number of years. I wonder why hamstrings can't be sorted. No hamstring problems in my time; think it's connected someway with training methods today.

Realt Dearg Sec

unrealtime wrote: »

All young men ffs. Hogan seems to have hamstring problems for a number of years. I wonder why hamstrings can't be sorted. No hamstring problems in my time; think it's connected someway with training methods today.

Back to five laps and a match, followed by a feed of porter?

donnem33

dastardly00 wrote: »

Round 1 is essentially Munster vs Leinster.

Preliminary Round:

Firstly, there is the Preliminary Round, which is Laois v Carlow (Sunday June 25th @ 3.30pm in O'Moore Park, Portlaoise). The winners go through to Qualifier Round 1.

Round 1 (Saturday July 1st):
Prior to the main draw, Westmeath and the winners of Carlow/Laois will be randomly assigned to the Munster/Leinster 'bowls'.

The Munster bowl will consist of:

• Tipperary
• Limerick
• Losers of Waterford/Cork
• Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

The Leinster bowl will consist of:

• Dublin
• Kilkenny
• Losers of Offaly/Galway
• Winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath

Team from Munster bowl will play against team from Leinster bowl in Round 1.
Repeat pairings cannot occur, so If Laois beat Carlow, then Laois & Westmeath cannot meet each other.

So at the moment KK could play: Tipperary, Limerick, losers of Waterford/Cork, winners of Laois/Carlow, or Westmeath.

Round 2 (Saturday July 8th):
Winners of Round 1 go through to Round 2.
Round 2 is an open draw, but repeat pairings cannot occur.
Winners of Round 2 go through to AI Quarter-Finals.

I'm open to correction on any of the above.

I hate the way the first round draw is, there is no reason why it isnt open draw, obviously with those who have already played each other kept apart.

brookville

Village87 wrote: »

is 3 weeks sufficient time to get, all the injured party back ?

A huge amount depends on the draw we really need a kind draw first because a week turn around then is going to be huge providing we get a win.
I've read here people saying we were unlucky last wknd while I agree we could of stole a draw wexford were a 7 point better team.
While we have problems in defence our forwards have being very poor this long time.I couldn't believe seeing alyward coming off it was a terrible call and bringing on richie reid as a forward was unbelievable.even the craic with not naming the team was unusual.
Going forward we'll need a huge amount to go right for us to get to croker injuries probably the most important.if we can get padraig and hogan back right it'll be huge..I dunno how many times its being raised here why wasn't more defenders brought in at the start of the year.
I'm happy bolger got game time anyone following club hurling knows that himself and John walsh both have that spark and bolger will improve