Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Hawkeye6

What a lot of ill-informed moaners exist on this board! I hope there’s more happiness and health in your personal lives than is portrayed here. The posts suggest born in the 90’s or later and wouldn’t remember the 80’s or the 90’s but unfortunately the keyboard warriors often set the miserable tone for the general population of a proud GAA county.

We, as in Kilkenny, have had a golden era of success, hardly if ever paralleled in any sport not just GAA. Over the last 19 years we reached 16 All-Ireland Finals, winning 11 of them! Add in Leagues, Leinsters and Walsh Cups, plus no shortage of underage titles, despite what many think. From a player point of view we have All-Stars and players of the year awards unmatched by any other county. Yes, I understand you want that success all the time, so does everyone in Kilkenny, from Brian Cody to the players, county board and every genuine supporter. But if the attitude of several of the posters is indicative of the normal Kilkenny supporter, then maybe as a county we don’t deserve that success. This is not what the greats who achieved that past success want. They want that success to continue with a new generation and for supporters to be patient and give the current crop a chance and support.

There is nothing wrong with people having their own opinion of what a team should be or what the tactics should be, but I find it sickening, that for example one poster would suggest we abuse players on the streets. I wonder if that person was placed in a room with any of that team would he or she have the guts to last 2 seconds. Also the posters who obviously hate Brian Cody and who constantly, criticise a legendary GAA manager and player who is the most successful GAA manager of all time. You obviously have a personnel beef, with Cody. Why don’t you just go tell him rather than the world wide web. We get it at this stage. You hate him. I remember your type from 2004 and 2005 as well. Or the poster who described it as the Worst ever Kilkenny performance, ever seen. You obviously weren’t born when we had a few mishaps against Offaly in the 80’s for example and its not the worst I remember against Wexford by a long shot. Maybe your age is a mitigating factor.

It was disappointing to lose to Wexford, but they were the better team on the night. They were faster and used their physical strength better. Despite this we could easily have stolen it on them. Chris Bolger missed two huge goalscoring opportunities. Hard to criticise him, when so many here were looking for him to be on the team for months. Wides… Yes bad day at the shooting office. Referee, might have done better to protect Colin Fennelly, then again, many KK players allowed themselves to be bullied. Ger Aylward, I don’t think the wides were his biggest issue, but certainly didn’t look like he would finish the game, was lucky not to get a red and was involved in stupid off the ball stuff. Hard again to criticise him when so many posters wanted him playing the last few months. Padraig, fit. He was fit enough. Fitness didn’t cause him to send the worst shot wide while three forward players were looking for the ball in better positions. Why was he centre forward-ish? Obviously to negate the sweeper. Surprise… there was a plan for the sweeper. Unfortunately, there wasn’t a plan B when the Sweeper withdrew to the wing. Padraig feeling redundant, takes silly shots. Time to get Padraig off, put in an orthodox forward instead, another lad people were screaming out for all through the league, so can’t criticise him either. Sweeper is reinstated as before except no Padraig to neutralise him now. Hard to criticise Padraig when you all moaned doom and gloom if he were to be missing due to injury. As for not being Full back, I posted day one that experiment wouldn’t work. The management obviously agree now too, so that’s positive. Richie Reid, I don’t overly understand that one myself, but I was one of the many who was surprised when Wally Walsh was picked to start an All-Ireland final replay. Bottom line, Games take on a life of their own. More often than not over the last two decades we have adapted best.

I find it amusing the number of people who have posted suggested teams with Joey Holden back in it. A lot of the same posters who made him the scapegoat for the AI defeat to Tipp. I am one of those who felt he was by far the best in the full back line that day and he was an All-Star the previous year and he was backed by Henry Shefflin (one of those greats) to replace JJ. Some of the teams posted are very amusing. I thought in some cases it was copy and paste of the team that lost that AI to Tipp. You see the issue is discussion like this made Joey a scapegoat for a problem elsewhere and spread like wildfire until Holden’s confidence was shattered by his own supporters. Maybe the management team should not have been influenced by the mood of the supporters, but it is a small county afterall. Yes we need to return to Holden, but it will take time to get back again to what could have been. That problem elsewhere is midfield (my opinion), but that is a discussion for another day and unfortunately, it is now not as straightforward to reinstate Holden.

This is not new for Kilkenny. In the 2004 Leinster Semi-Final, Kilkenny lost by 2 points thanks to a late Mick Jacob winner and KK scored 1 point less than Saturday in 2004. Made it to the All-Ireland final and were beaten by Cork. They lost a shoot-out to Galway in 2005. The keyboard warriors wanted Cody gone back then too and whole scale changes. Players were criticised as well. But I suppose when you think about it, that Kilkenny team against Wexford in 2004 featured DJ Carey, Henry Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Martin Comerford, Tommy Walsh, James McGarry and JJ Delaney!!! Sure those “useless so and so’s” would never become legends, would they??? Seriously!! And their manager was also a less experienced man than we have today who had ONLY won three AIs as a manager at that stage. Sure we’d never win another one with him there!!! But look the same guys are back again painting the doom and gloom around the county on forums and in bars, wherever anyone will listen to them and their uneducated verbal garbage.

Everyone knows that work needs to be done, no different to 2004, Cody, his management team, the players, the county board, the development squads. They all know it. We might win an AI this year or maybe next, or the year after, but we will win AIs very soon. We have huge resources of raw materials to work with. It may take time, but that’s when the SUPPORT is needed more than ever. There is also a huge onus on the clubs to step up their methods of coaching at all ages. Many club coaches are doing what they did when they were playing with the “it worked for us” mentality. Others have done the Croke Park designed courses and think that’s the only model to follow. I’m not aware of any All-Ireland Croke Park has won. But again this is for a different discussion.

Finally, ask yourself 2 questions. One, name the county who if they had a choice would pick Kilkenny out of the hat to play in the qualifiers and secondly, everyone has opinions on what the team should be and as stated previously they are entitled to those opinions, but especially those who want Cody out, step up to the plate and name your alternative manager/management team. Don’t be afraid to put your own name forward, nobody will know it’s you naming yourself. Let’s be hearing you, should make interesting discussion, even more so than the team selections when we know the team will only be decided by the management team whoever they maybe.

droppingball

Great post hawkeye

usualstripes

droppingball wrote: »

Great post hawkeye

Super post.
1 thing to take from it all is that no one will want to meet kilkenny in the qualifiers. A few things go our way and we will gain some confidence

dastardly00

usualstripes wrote: »

Yes. Wally to give 15 mins in each half midfield.
Have a think about it. He didn't hurl well last Saturday but it comes back to the same thing again. He didn't train for a week and a half before the match as he went over on his ankle. He wasn't in the thick of things as he should have been but he wasn't on his own there. On his game he would be dominant in the middle and his distribution from there is excellent

Ability to dominante midfield...
Excellent distribution...

Are we talking about the same player?

I'll gladly hold my hands up if I'm proved wrong, but I just can't see Wally performing well in midifeld given his current skill set.

Imagine a (fully fit) Wally against Lee Chin...
Wally might (marginally) beat him for strength, but Chin is faster, more agile/mobile/athletic, has better hurling skills including shooting and passing ability.

bruschi

DickoHara wrote: »

Wexford wont stick that pace of hurling McGovern a few more of them were out on there feet Saturday evening at the end.

Not sure why you'd think that. Don't recall any wexford player struggling fitness wise. Although I'm not surprised McGovern was out on his feet, considering he did his cruciate last week and was on crutches in the stand for the game.

Village87

DickoHara wrote: »

The end of the greatest era ever last Saturday night in Wexford park, will brining back lads make a difference I don't think so was Pat Hartley that interested in the senior set up didn't he go to America for a summer when he was in contension for a place on the panel. April when kilkenny v Wexford in the park the writing was on the wall all spring we won two league matches against fourteen players the one in Thurles was a major disappointment to the players they couldn't get it over the line. I was hopeing last Saturday things would come right they didn't if present players are going to be reminded about past players it wont do them any good we all have to move on get back in contension for minor, u21, intermediate all Irelands in a couple of years we will be back with the seniors, Wexford wont stick that pace of hurling McGovern a few more of them were out on there feet Saturday evening at the end.

There has been more on Pat Hartley since the match itself last Saturday. Time to move on about this subject, yes like a lot people on this I would have him in there going on his form and the decline and form of current backs. But there is zero chance of this. Hey I'd even have Jackie back there .Move on and maybe give players on the panel like Michael Walsh and Joey Holden a chance never day, might be in better form than last Saturdays starters

DickoHara

bruschi wrote: »

Not sure why you'd think that. Don't recall any wexford player struggling fitness wise. Although I'm not surprised McGovern was out on his feet, considering he did his cruciate last week and was on crutches in the stand for the game.

My apologies I should have said DIARMUID O KEEFE number 7 was out on his feet .

DickoHara

Village87 wrote: »

There has been more on Pat Hartley since the match itself last Saturday. Time to move on about this subject, yes like a lot people on this I would have him in there going on his form and the decline and form of current backs. But there is zero chance of this. Hey I'd even have Jackie back there .Move on and maybe give players on the panel like Michael Walsh and Joey Holden a chance never day, might be in better form than last Saturdays starters

They could do a good study on you out in st canices .

allthedoyles

Really whats eating at KK people is mainly the change in tactics from management .
As previously they would play the best 15 that are firing on all cylinders in training . To start a guy that was out and about on crutches only 3 weeks previously , and subbing a player that had been playing well without scoring . They would like to know if this was because he had a yellow , or simply because he had 4 wides .
A yellow card is a warning and a player with no card can get a straight red .

To change 2 players in first half is usually unheard of in KK championship hurling

oconnol1

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

What a lot of ill-informed moaners exist on this board! I hope there’s more happiness and health in your personal lives than is portrayed here. The posts suggest born in the 90’s or later and wouldn’t remember the 80’s or the 90’s but unfortunately the keyboard warriors often set the miserable tone for the general population of a proud GAA county.

We, as in Kilkenny, have had a golden era of success, hardly if ever paralleled in any sport not just GAA. Over the last 19 years we reached 16 All-Ireland Finals, winning 11 of them! Add in Leagues, Leinsters and Walsh Cups, plus no shortage of underage titles, despite what many think. From a player point of view we have All-Stars and players of the year awards unmatched by any other county. Yes, I understand you want that success all the time, so does everyone in Kilkenny, from Brian Cody to the players, county board and every genuine supporter. But if the attitude of several of the posters is indicative of the normal Kilkenny supporter, then maybe as a county we don’t deserve that success. This is not what the greats who achieved that past success want. They want that success to continue with a new generation and for supporters to be patient and give the current crop a chance and support.

There is nothing wrong with people having their own opinion of what a team should be or what the tactics should be, but I find it sickening, that for example one poster would suggest we abuse players on the streets. I wonder if that person was placed in a room with any of that team would he or she have the guts to last 2 seconds. Also the posters who obviously hate Brian Cody and who constantly, criticise a legendary GAA manager and player who is the most successful GAA manager of all time. You obviously have a personnel beef, with Cody. Why don’t you just go tell him rather than the world wide web. We get it at this stage. You hate him. I remember your type from 2004 and 2005 as well. Or the poster who described it as the Worst ever Kilkenny performance, ever seen. You obviously weren’t born when we had a few mishaps against Offaly in the 80’s for example and its not the worst I remember against Wexford by a long shot. Maybe your age is a mitigating factor.

It was disappointing to lose to Wexford, but they were the better team on the night. They were faster and used their physical strength better. Despite this we could easily have stolen it on them. Chris Bolger missed two huge goalscoring opportunities. Hard to criticise him, when so many here were looking for him to be on the team for months. Wides… Yes bad day at the shooting office. Referee, might have done better to protect Colin Fennelly, then again, many KK players allowed themselves to be bullied. Ger Aylward, I don’t think the wides were his biggest issue, but certainly didn’t look like he would finish the game, was lucky not to get a red and was involved in stupid off the ball stuff. Hard again to criticise him when so many posters wanted him playing the last few months. Padraig, fit. He was fit enough. Fitness didn’t cause him to send the worst shot wide while three forward players were looking for the ball in better positions. Why was he centre forward-ish? Obviously to negate the sweeper. Surprise… there was a plan for the sweeper. Unfortunately, there wasn’t a plan B when the Sweeper withdrew to the wing. Padraig feeling redundant, takes silly shots. Time to get Padraig off, put in an orthodox forward instead, another lad people were screaming out for all through the league, so can’t criticise him either. Sweeper is reinstated as before except no Padraig to neutralise him now. Hard to criticise Padraig when you all moaned doom and gloom if he were to be missing due to injury. As for not being Full back, I posted day one that experiment wouldn’t work. The management obviously agree now too, so that’s positive. Richie Reid, I don’t overly understand that one myself, but I was one of the many who was surprised when Wally Walsh was picked to start an All-Ireland final replay. Bottom line, Games take on a life of their own. More often than not over the last two decades we have adapted best.

I find it amusing the number of people who have posted suggested teams with Joey Holden back in it. A lot of the same posters who made him the scapegoat for the AI defeat to Tipp. I am one of those who felt he was by far the best in the full back line that day and he was an All-Star the previous year and he was backed by Henry Shefflin (one of those greats) to replace JJ. Some of the teams posted are very amusing. I thought in some cases it was copy and paste of the team that lost that AI to Tipp. You see the issue is discussion like this made Joey a scapegoat for a problem elsewhere and spread like wildfire until Holden’s confidence was shattered by his own supporters. Maybe the management team should not have been influenced by the mood of the supporters, but it is a small county afterall. Yes we need to return to Holden, but it will take time to get back again to what could have been. That problem elsewhere is midfield (my opinion), but that is a discussion for another day and unfortunately, it is now not as straightforward to reinstate Holden.

This is not new for Kilkenny. In the 2004 Leinster Semi-Final, Kilkenny lost by 2 points thanks to a late Mick Jacob winner and KK scored 1 point less than Saturday in 2004. Made it to the All-Ireland final and were beaten by Cork. They lost a shoot-out to Galway in 2005. The keyboard warriors wanted Cody gone back then too and whole scale changes. Players were criticised as well. But I suppose when you think about it, that Kilkenny team against Wexford in 2004 featured DJ Carey, Henry Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Martin Comerford, Tommy Walsh, James McGarry and JJ Delaney!!! Sure those “useless so and so’s” would never become legends, would they??? Seriously!! And their manager was also a less experienced man than we have today who had ONLY won three AIs as a manager at that stage. Sure we’d never win another one with him there!!! But look the same guys are back again painting the doom and gloom around the county on forums and in bars, wherever anyone will listen to them and their uneducated verbal garbage.

Everyone knows that work needs to be done, no different to 2004, Cody, his management team, the players, the county board, the development squads. They all know it. We might win an AI this year or maybe next, or the year after, but we will win AIs very soon. We have huge resources of raw materials to work with. It may take time, but that’s when the SUPPORT is needed more than ever. There is also a huge onus on the clubs to step up their methods of coaching at all ages. Many club coaches are doing what they did when they were playing with the “it worked for us” mentality. Others have done the Croke Park designed courses and think that’s the only model to follow. I’m not aware of any All-Ireland Croke Park has won. But again this is for a different discussion.

Finally, ask yourself 2 questions. One, name the county who if they had a choice would pick Kilkenny out of the hat to play in the qualifiers and secondly, everyone has opinions on what the team should be and as stated previously they are entitled to those opinions, but especially those who want Cody out, step up to the plate and name your alternative manager/management team. Don’t be afraid to put your own name forward, nobody will know it’s you naming yourself. Let’s be hearing you, should make interesting discussion, even more so than the team selections when we know the team will only be decided by the management team whoever they maybe.

Excellent post, a pleasure to read. We as kilkenny people should stand proud and support our team whatever result, least we not forget our great hurling heritage and future teams and all stars. I for one am a proud kilkenny supporter, regardless of match outcomes. Stand proud and support theses men, remember the time, effort and commitment these guys and managent put in. We as supporters are privileged to attend one of our national games. Hon the black and amber. (North County Kilkenny)

DickoHara

bruschi wrote: »

Not sure why you'd think that. Don't recall any wexford player struggling fitness wise. Although I'm not surprised McGovern was out on his feet, considering he did his cruciate last week and was on crutches in the stand for the game.

Were you not watching the kilkenny supporters going home before the match ended as you said in an earlier post, I didn't say they were struggling with fitness what I mean is that running game takes a lot out of players .

bruschi

DickoHara wrote: »

Were you not watching the kilkenny supporters going home before the match ended as you said in an earlier post, I didn't say they were struggling with fitness what I mean is that running game takes a lot out of players .

yes, I was watching the Kilkenny supporters leaving. Strangely enough, it is actually possible to see two things at the same time! Weird, I know. I wasnt saying as a dig at Kilkenny supporters (unlike your response to that) more so that I was surprised to see so many leave a game that was still up for grabs.

Out on your feet means struggling with fitness, no matter what way you try dress it up. Who in your opinion finished the game stronger? And of course a running game takes it out on players, but its not like they are out every week playing. If they cant sustain that sort of gameplan over a season, then it would be foolish to even consider doing it. Their fitness isnt an issue.

bruschi

DickoHara wrote: »

**** off you smart bastard

sound lad. Good counterpoint.

DickoHara

bruschi wrote: »

sound lad. Good counterpoint.

DiD YOU SEE DIARMUD O KEEFE TOWARDS THE END OF THE MATCH MAYBE YOU DIDNT WONT TO.

babyjesus14

DickoHara wrote: »

DiD YOU SEE DIARMUD O KEEFE TOWARDS THE END OF THE MATCH MAYBE YOU DIDNT WONT TO.

To be honest i wouldn't blame Diarmud O'Keeffe if he slept well on Saturday night because i lost count of the number of times he ran through the Kilkenny midfield like they were standing still

Village87

babyjesus14 wrote: »

To be honest i wouldn't blame Diarmud O'Keeffe if he slept well on Saturday night because i lost count of the number of times he ran through the Kilkenny midfield like they were standing still

True actually, Kilkenny had little pace there, lack pace in general..

dubcat51

bruschi wrote: »

yes, I was watching the Kilkenny supporters leaving. Strangely enough, it is actually possible to see two things at the same time! Weird, I know. I wasnt saying as a dig at Kilkenny supporters (unlike your response to that) more so that I was surprised to see so many leave a game that was still up for grabs.

Out on your feet means struggling with fitness, no matter what way you try dress it up. Who in your opinion finished the game stronger? And of course a running game takes it out on players, but its not like they are out every week playing. If they cant sustain that sort of gameplan over a season, then it would be foolish to even consider doing it. Their fitness isnt an issue.

I never leave before the end no supporter should.what this team has given us is incredibile.we need to back them more than ever now.

Dionysis

dubcat51 wrote: »

I never leave before the end no supporter should.what this team has given us is incredibile.we need to back them more than ever now.

I'll follow the team no matter what, however you say what this team have given us.....allowing that of those that were playing.... only a few of the them have more than one all-Ireland medal as a player or any at all, I'd say they haven't done as much as you would think.

That team you talk about are gone, the majority of this team are new.

Dionysis

The odds to win the all-Ireland on a well known Irish companies betting website are :
Galway 2/1
Tip 4/1
Waterford 5/1
Clare 13/2
Kilkenny 8/1
Wexford 9/1
Cork 10/1
Limerick 40/1

Kk are 8/1? That is how far we have dropped in one season and to be fair, Wexford and cork should be shorter odds than us!

jelutong

Tipperary are good value at 4/1.

Realt Dearg Sec

Dionysis wrote: »

only a few of the them have more than one all-Ireland medal as a player

Do you ever listen to yourself?

catseye2

Just watching rerun on eir sport of 2013 final and the speed and first touch of Richie hogan Colin Fogarty and Paul Murphy is amazing to watch. I wonder about the type of training being done now as these guys are either worn out or aren't getting enough balllwork as they are unrecognisable

blackcard

catseye2 wrote: »

Just watching rerun on eir sport of 2013 final and the speed and first touch of Richie hogan Colin Fogarty and Paul Murphy is amazing to watch. I wonder about the type of training being done now as these guys are either worn out or aren't getting enough balllwork as they are unrecognisable

2014 drawn final. Richie Power had a great game, such a pity that he had to retire as he is only 31. Michael Fennelly had a great game also.

blackcard

Dionysis wrote: »

dubcat51 wrote: »

I never leave before the end no supporter should.what this team has given us is incredibile.we need to back them more than ever now.

I'll follow the team no matter what, however you say what this team have given us.....allowing that of those that were playing.... only a few of the them have more than one all-Ireland medal as a player or any at all, I'd say they haven't done as much as you would think.

That team you talk about are gone, the majority of this team are new.

Eoin Murphy, Paul Murphy, Joyce, Fogarty, Buckley, Lester, Richie Hogan, TJ, Walter Walsh, Padraig Walsh and Colin Fennelly have more than 1 AI. You probably have a good few yourself.

unrealtime

A lot of people think the 31 is a granddad age. But Richie Power would go through bricks to play now. If one is good enough then one is young enough.

Rasputin11

Damien Hayes was on the Gaa Hour Podcast suggesting moving Richie Hogan to wing back, he also said he'd have Tyrell at full back if he was picking the "Kilkinny" team. Both seemed like pretty ludicrous options to me.

dastardly00

unrealtime wrote: »

A lot of people think the 31 is a granddad age. But Richie Power would go through bricks to play now. If one is good enough then one is young enough.

As has been said by a few of us already, age is not the issue... It's the mileage in the legs and/or the accumulation of injuries due to playing and training at the highest level since youth.

That is why some of recent great KK players retired at a relatively young age. Either they didn't have the pace/mobility/stamina anymore or else, in Richie Power's case, they are crocked from injuries.

I would suggest you read this recent interview with the man himself: http://the42.ie/3442212

It doesn't sound like he would run through bricks to play now...

I’m only 31 at the end of the day. I retired when I was 29, it isn’t something you want to do, but it has just materialised that way.

I think the procedure is more about quality of life and getting longevity with my own knee.

It isn’t about getting back hurling or getting me back on the field. If I get it done and I feel well enough to go back I’ll go back, if not I’ll just have to draw a line under it.

You need to start thinking long term, family and stuff like that. I’d love to be able to wake up every morning pain free, to be able to walk without the fear of your leg going from underneath you.

I have good days and bad days with it at the moment, but if I get to a point where I’m comfortable that is the most important thing.

unrealtime

You obviously didn't read the whole interview which was about trying further therapy to get back playing. He made it clear in the interview that he would go through brick walls to get back playing (as I wrote).

dastardly00

unrealtime wrote: »

You obviously didn't read the whole interview which was about trying further therapy to get back playing. He made it clear in the interview that he would go through brick walls to get back playing (as I wrote).

Feel free to paste the quotes in your reply where Richie talks about what you are describing.

Realt Dearg Sec

unrealtime wrote: »

You obviously didn't read the whole interview which was about trying further therapy to get back playing. He made it clear in the interview that he would go through brick walls to get back playing (as I wrote).

It made it perfectly clear that he has no hope at all of playing inter county hurling ever again, that if he was very lucky he could possibly still play club but that ultimately this highly experimental procedure is about getting quality of life back for later years. Once again, trying to read the tea leaves for evidence that retreading the tyres on a bunch of over 30 players most of whom are crocked with injuries from years of meeting the excessive demands of modern county hurling, is not going to solve the very deep problems facing Kilkenny hurling. I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with the idea of dragging retired players back into the squad other than nostalgia for the great times they gave us, but even if by some miracle (and again the notion of bringing back Tommy, JJ, Richie, etc etc is completely ludicrous and impossible to take seriously) they all came back in and proved themselves still capable of playing, I cannot see how anyone could argue they'd be capable of winning an all Ireland. And even if they were it's obviously just kicking the can down the road instead of facing the harder question of how to actually rebuild the senior team.