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Why are we hating all the men?

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  • #362
    RabbleRouser2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,629 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    ......... wrote: »
    Good observation.
    Are any Irish journalists worth reading these days ? Scant with facts and swimming with opinion and spin.

    I know she's not to other's tastes, but I do really admire any article Niamh Horan writes on feminism-she completely quashes the ridiculous 'rape culture' myths, as well as the so-called 'body shaming'. Most of the people crying 'body shamed' are protecting their brand-they absolutely don't care, they are not crying about this stuff. They're worried about their money.


  • #363
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Did anyone actually have their mind changed by an article? I may be completely wrong, but I seem to mostly see people rating journalism "good" when they agree with what's been said.


  • #364
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    General Butt Naked wrote: »
    Explain how sexual violence is trivialised when sex offenders have to housed in a seperate prison for their own safety?

    Or whenever a rapist is convicted the public response is 'why did he only get x years, should have got 40 years'?.

    I've commented on this before elsewhere but I'll post it here as it's quite relevant.

    I work as a Prison Officer. Rapists in prison are seen as the lowest of the low. They are scum. Murderers are miles above them. What does that tell you? Apart from Subversive Republicans (and that's largely political), Sex Offenders are the only category of prisoner requiring their own prison. Imagine that, their own prison because even the dregs of decent society won't accept them. Rapists aren't accepted in decent society and are just as much not accpeted in indecent society.

    There ya go radfems, I just dispelled your rape culture theory.


  • #365
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,332 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Samaris wrote: »
    Did anyone actually have their mind changed by an article? I may be completely wrong, but I seem to mostly see people rating journalism "good" when they agree with what's been said.

    You have a good point, however a well written article written by a journalist with no 'baggage' not Gene Kerrigan for example, who although a fine writer and journalist, always comes at a subject from a particular viewpoint.

    Balance, I think, is the key here, and I have been influenced by an article which puts forward a genuine point and doesn't allow the 'personals 'to intrude.


  • #366
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    mzungu wrote: »
    I believe part of that strategy is encouraging more women into STEM fields and other high paying professions. This will redress the balance, alongside much needed changes in industry. But, on a like for like basis, the "pay gap" is a myth, instead it is more like a "profession gap". This should be fixed.


    Taking Sweden as an example. It is often cited as being the most working mother friendly countries in the world. However, mums there choose to work less hours (and make less money) to stay at home and look after their children. When the choice is there, under absolutely no social or cultural constraints, they make that decision. The family friendly policy in Sweden has made it easier for women to drop out of the work force, so they have. However, if they wanted to go back in they are free to do so, but they choose not to. No amount of social engineering has skewed the figures for gender differences in parental leave. You may very well find that if and when we adopt the Swedish model, there will not be much of a change here either. Like I said earlier, I believe those staying at home to look after their children are not there because they are under the thrall of prior cultural norms, rather they are exercising a free and autonomous choice to be there.


    That is a completely different scenario to the one being discussed, but an interesting one. I believe the figure being used was 86% as opposed to 80%. In the UK, more women than men receive benefits, so when there are budget cuts then they will be on the receiving end. Is it harsh? It sure is, I would not agree with Mrs May on that score. AFAIK the election promise will be to give 30 hours free childcare a week, so we can view that as being somewhat progressive for a Tory government. Also worth noting that the analysis is based on the changes in tax and benefit since 2010, the losses are apportioned to the individual within the household that receives the payments. It takes no account of whether there are co-dependents.


    Just to clarify, I never said issues like domestic violence and wage freezes were "figments of their imagination". Nor did I mention them at all in any way, shape or form. In fact they haven't been mentioned in the thread at all.

    Don't know enough about the Swedish situation to comment, perhaps the pension situation is better for women, the pension age was just increased to 66 in the UK so a lot of women who had financed for retirement at 60 found themselves in trouble.

    just to clarify you didn't bring it up, I brought it up, this thread is already off topic anyway the point the O.P made was they objected to the way feminism was discussed in the circles that they chose to engage with so I feel they've discounted feminism as a result.

    Just to say because it always is brought up, many posters may not like how Louise O'Neil puts herself across (these threads always start discussing her sex life as well, as if that has any bearing) but her book has encouraged many woman who have been sexually assaulted, raped to seek help so for me I feel that she has done a lot of good (i'll be asked how do I know this, she says she gets letters all the time from women saying her book caused them to contact the rape crisis centre, Louise has gotten advice from them and appeared on panel shows with representatives from that organisation etc., her book was a bestseller, it tackles an important topic).

    Thank you for pointing me towards the National Women's Council Of Ireland Ltd, I've subscribed to them as I'm sure other posters on this thread have done the same.


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  • #367
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    anna080 wrote: »
    Calling it "rape culture" when it's nothing to do with that, is what's trivialising rape. It would be like me saying we have a terrorist culture because we make jokes like "I'd kill for a burger" or "if you do that again I'll kill ya", and claiming that those sentences trivialise and endorse terrorism.
    The irony when the ones pushing this "rape culture" theory, are the ones who actually end up trivialising rape.
    What you have experienced is arsehole culture.
    Frankly it's embarrassing to hear people in Ireland say we live in a rape culture.

    But then your issue is with the term "rape culture", rather than what it describes.

    I don't think those who use the phrase "rape culture" are nearly as objectionable as those who grope women, who objectify women (or indeed men), who say things like they'd "smash it" etc. For me that trivialises rape far more than those who object and use the phrase you don't like. As I said before, I'm happy to call it "frat boy culture" or whatever shorthand is used...but do you not agree that is far more of an issue than whatever words are used to describe it?


  • #368
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But then your issue is with the term "rape culture", rather than what it describes.

    I don't think those who use the phrase "rape culture" are nearly as objectionable as those who grope women, who objectify women (or indeed men), who say things like they'd "smash it" etc. For me that trivialises rape far more than those who object and use the phrase you don't like. As I said before, I'm happy to call it "frat boy culture" or whatever shorthand is used...but do you not agree that is far more of an issue than whatever words are used to describe it?

    Yes I worry that the discussion has been to much about semantics, like the marriage referendum there was a big discussion about word usage and for a while people got bogged down in it and I believe it's a way to detract from the issues at hand an attempt to control language and therefore halt the discussion because the person doesn't like the way the message is being conveyed even though the message being conveyed maybe valid. Also it could be a tactic if they don't like the message to try and turn things around by complaining about the language used to try and negate the overall message which they find abhorrent but they don't want to express that.


  • #369
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    General Butt Naked wrote: »
    There is no rape culture in Ireland. Rapists are despised and have to be housed in their own prison or they'd be sugared or even murdered. Crude talk about the opposite sex is not rape culture and if it is then women are just as guilty.

    Rape culture is victims being stoned to death or gangs of men molesting women in the town square. If you'd like to experience rape culture I suggest you visit South Africa or India.

    Again, I'm comfortable with the term, others may disagree. Again, I think you confuse the crime of rape with the term rape culture, as the poster above said surely it's only semantics, it's hardly the big issue.
    General Butt Naked wrote: »
    Explain how sexual violence is trivialised when sex offenders have to housed in a seperate prison for their own safety?

    I think the association of sex and violence is unhealthy and trivialises the crime of rape.

    Take your user name. I think the use of "General Butt Naked" trivialises the depraved crimes he stands accused of. You may disagree, that is your prerogative.


  • #370
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,527 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But then your issue is with the term "rape culture", rather than what it describes.

    I don't think those who use the phrase "rape culture" are nearly as objectionable as those who grope women, who objectify women (or indeed men), who say things like they'd "smash it" etc. For me that trivialises rape far more than those who object and use the phrase you don't like. As I said before, I'm happy to call it "frat boy culture" or whatever shorthand is used...but do you not agree that is far more of an issue than whatever words are used to describe it?


    I don't agree that what you're describing is far more of an issue than using the words 'rape culture' to describe it, because I don't associate bullshít talk with rape. It's important if you're going to identify a behaviour and expect to convey your ideas to other people, that at least you use language that has a common understanding. Using the phrase 'rape culture' to describe a behaviour that has nothing to do with rape, is being deliberately inflammatory, not to mention misleading.

    I also don't agree that anything trivialises rape, as I'd have to agree to associate the term 'rape culture' with rape in the first place in order to make that association. I think what the term tries to do, is appeal to people's revulsion of rape to try and have them associate the behaviour and attitudes you're talking about with rape. Effectively what it does is rather than trivialise rape, it exaggerates a behaviour that isn't rape, and that's why it will never gain any traction in society, and that's why I wouldn't be able to take someone seriously when they use the term, because there's never yet been a link made between the behaviour you're talking about, and the behaviour you need people to associate it with.


  • #371
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Effectively what it does is rather than trivialise rape, it exaggerates a behaviour that isn't rape, and that's why it will never gain any traction in society, and that's why I wouldn't be able to take someone seriously when they use the term, because there's never yet been a link made between the behaviour you're talking about, and the behaviour you need people to associate it with.

    I don't think it trivialises the crime any more than, say, "I'd murder a pint" trivialises murder. But again, it's semantics.

    This is at least the second long thread where I've seen far more people get upset about the term than the behaviour it describes...which should surely be the issue, right? I'm comfortable with it, I can't prescribe that you should be, but I still think acts like groping or the use of violent phrases like "I'd smash her" are far more objectionable than which 2 words are used as shorthand when objecting to it.


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  • #372
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,684 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Samaris wrote: »
    Did anyone actually have their mind changed by an article? I may be completely wrong, but I seem to mostly see people rating journalism "good" when they agree with what's been said.

    Definitely. I'm a lot more liberal than I used to be. I was much more of a socialist a few years ago. I've only had my mind changed by good articles that focus on good analysis rather than just pushing an agenda.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #373
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I read and listen to plenty of stuff I don't completely agree with and some stuff I disagree with. It's something most people on the "left" and "right" could really do with getting into. Disagreeing with one point someone makes doesn't mean you can then disregard everything they say.


  • #374
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    Deleted User wrote: »
    All neologisms can seem a little ridiculous.

    I simply see it as shorthand for "a culture that objectifies and in particular connects violence or degradation with sex". It simply uses an alarming word linked to one aspect of that, "sex and violence culture" would also be acceptable but it's not as headline grabbing.

    Isn't this just an admission that the whole point of the phrase is to grab headlines?

    Or to "start a discussion"?

    The problem with that is the only discussion you start is whether or not the phrase is ridiculous or inappropriate.

    The only way I can imagine "Rape Culture" as a useful phrase would be when it's used among people who already agree with each other. Like I am sure when Feminist academics discuss Rape Culture they all agree on the definition and they all agree that it exists.

    It seems more like a phrase that members of a cult would use internally where they all have absolute belief in the concept. You take that outside to the general public and suddenly you have a massive force pushing back because everyone is basically going to say "um, our culture already condemns rape".

    The only headlines being grabbed at that point is "Crazy Feminists Think Ireland Is A rape Culture".

    It ends up damaging the image of Feminism is Western Society and probably actually ends up working contrary to the goals of Feminism.


  • #375
    Bambi985
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭Bambi985


    I think if you're looking for it either subconsciously or otherwise you'll find a lot of any old shyte on the interwebz. If I suddenly decided that misogyny was everywhere, I'd start to see it everywhere in both the types of social media accounts and posts I'd be drawn towards and even in the most innocuous articles and blogs. That's confirmation bias at play for you.

    I don't follow Louise O'Neill or read Rosemary McCabe's posts and can barely name any other angry feminists outside of that because if I see that type of post, I'll roll my eyes and scroll beyond it just like I will with those "fat acceptance" folks who justify their obesity under the "body positive" ideology or that Milo Yiannopoulos dude who has made a career out of misogyny.

    Would be an interesting experiment to see how a thread titled "why are we hating all the women?" would go down in this forum though (ever ventured into one of the many feminism-related threads around here - LOL), which is interesting considering the fact that women statistically attract far more bile and verbal abuse on the interwebs than men do.


  • #376
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But then your issue is with the term "rape culture", rather than what it describes.

    I don't think those who use the phrase "rape culture" are nearly as objectionable as those who grope women, who objectify women (or indeed men), who say things like they'd "smash it" etc. For me that trivialises rape far more than those who object and use the phrase you don't like. As I said before, I'm happy to call it "frat boy culture" or whatever shorthand is used...but do you not agree that is far more of an issue than whatever words are used to describe it?

    The problem is that many feminists are desperately trying to apply tropes that are far more prevalent in the US for example (often due to that country being the culture in which the authors of the social studies texts they read in college are based in and are writing about) to a different place like Ireland.

    "Frat boy culture" is an example of what I'm talking about - I seem to remember a furore last year, in which every armchair twitter feminista gleefully hopped on the bandwagon of denouncing a whole male student body in the Agriculture Department of UCD for an apparent "sexting ring". Breathless articles were written about how this is proof of a systemic "toxic masculinity" problem, that grown men should have to attend patronizing mandatory "consent classes" and that more resources need to be allocated to combat "lad culture" (I'll get to that in a second)... - then it turned out that the whole thing was a load of shyte without a shred of evidence to back it up. The feminists still wouldn't back down and admit their error - because patriarchy is apparently self-evident and just because that specific incident that they immediately bought into was a load of balls doesn't mean that it isn't happening "somewhere". Their opinions are fixed and don't change based on the evidence or lack thereof in front of them - anyone who questions this discourse or the behaviour of certain commentators during this incident is a misogynist and a rape apologist, of course :rolleyes:

    And it's time to speak honestly on this "rape culture" term - it's an intentionally loaded term (as well those who use it know) designed to shut down any discussion or questions on the situations to which it is applied - because to do so would be to be open to accusations of being a rape apologist (after the cries of "mansplainer" die down of course - that's a topic for another day), which nobody in their right mind would want to be accused of being because it's one of the most terrible things that can be be inflicted on one human being by another.

    It's manipulative use of language in what is an effort to police language - you even admitted yourself that its real meaning does not denote what the term itself implies but what could be described as "lad culture" or what you described as "frat boy culture", which when you get down to brass tacs means "off-color jokes and language that some guys (the vast, vast majority of whom find rape repugnant) use with each that I don't like" - that's a far cry from rape-anything, to be honest - but a lot less attention grabbing.

    If use of language is what your issue is, why not just call it for what it is instead of a term that is pretty much designed to make most reasonable people defensive? Do you really think that anyone, ever said "you know, I once thought rape was wrong but then Paddy told that joke once so now I think it's alright"?

    Rape cultures do exist though - it could definitely describe parts of India for example. To say Ireland has one, makes a mockery of those cases. That's not to say that rape doesn't happen here - it does, it's terrible. Murder happens too - it does not mean we are living in a murder culture. Society doesn't tolerate those that perpetrate these crimes - rapists need to be segregated in prison for their own safety, such are the people who break the law in this regard despised even amongst other law breakers.

    And yes, people who molest women are worse than people who use loaded, manipulative language to get their way in debates. What's your point? Who was comparing the two?


  • #377
    Biggest lickspittle on boardz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭Biggest lickspittle on boardz


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But then we just disagree. I think rape culture is the trivialisation of the association of sex and violence, and I think it's rampant in Ireland. You have a different standard of what constitutes rape culture, so naturally we will disagree.


    The only rape culture, if you would call it that, is the acceptable use of joking about male rapes:

    "Haha lads did you hear about the 15 year old who was raped by his 40 year old female teacher?" He's the President of France now. I'm still waiting for Una Mullaly and Louise O Neill to comment on this. Because, y'know...equality.

    "Haha lads I hope he ends up in prison sharing a cell with Bubba!" Various versions of this online.

    "Haha lads did you hear about the baboons who raped five fellas in Zimbabwe? T'was gas!"
    An actual thread about it here on boards: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103274930


  • #378
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    The problem is that many feminists are desperately trying to apply tropes that are far more prevalent in the US for example (often due to that country being the culture in which the authors of the social studies texts they read in college are based in and are writing about) to a different place like Ireland.

    "Frat boy culture" is an example of what I'm talking about - I seem to remember a furore last year, in which every armchair twitter feminista gleefully hopped on the bandwagon of denouncing a whole male student body in the Agriculture Department of UCD for an apparent "sexting ring". Breathless articles were written about how this is proof of a systemic "toxic masculinity" problem, that grown men should have to attend patronizing mandatory "consent classes" and that more resources need to be allocated to combat "lad culture" (I'll get to that in a second)... - then it turned out that the whole thing was a load of shyte without a shred of evidence to back it up. The feminists still wouldn't back down and admit their error - because patriarchy is apparently self-evident and just because that specific incident that they immediately bought into was a load of balls doesn't mean that it isn't happening "somewhere". Their opinions are fixed and don't change based on the evidence or lack thereof in front of them - anyone who questions this discourse or the behaviour of certain commentators during this incident is a misogynist and a rape apologist, of course :rolleyes:

    And it's time to speak honestly on this "rape culture" term - it's an intentionally loaded term (as well those who use it know) designed to shut down any discussion or questions on the situations to which it is applied - because to do so would be to be open to accusations of being a rape apologist (after the cries of "mansplainer" die down of course - that's a topic for another day), which nobody in their right mind would want to be accused of being because it's one of the most terrible things that can be be inflicted on one human being by another.

    It's manipulative use of language in what is an effort to police language - you even admitted yourself that its real meaning does not denote what the term itself implies but what could be described as "lad culture" or what you described as "frat boy culture", which when you get down to brass tacs means "off-color jokes and language that some guys (the vast, vast majority of whom find rape repugnant) use with each that I don't like" - that's a far cry from rape-anything, to be honest - but a lot less attention grabbing.

    If use of language is what your issue is, why not just call it for what it is instead of a term that is pretty much designed to make most reasonable people defensive? Do you really think that anyone, ever said "you know, I once thought rape was wrong but then Paddy told that joke once so now I think it's alright"?

    Rape cultures do exist though - it could definitely describe parts of India for example. To say Ireland has one, makes a mockery of those cases. That's not to say that rape doesn't happen here - it does, it's terrible. Murder happens too - it does not mean we are living in a murder culture. Society doesn't tolerate those that perpetrate these crimes.

    And yes, people who molest women are worse than people who use loaded, manipulative language to get their way in debates. What's your point? Who was comparing the two?

    Hmmm they found no evidence for the case in UCD but there have been other cases like the PWC case where a group of men in the office were sending around pictures of the female interns and rating them, you don't have to look far to find examples. I also remember men on here saying that the feminists who discussed the UCD case should apologise and I thought why should they have to apologise, they assumed it was true as did many members of the public, nobody was publicly defamed why should they apologise, if it had been true their reaction was the right reaction and a normal one that many other people had.


  • #379
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Ive heard a man say 'women are just for sex'.
    I've heard a man say, 'of course men keep women down, would you give up that power'
    I've heard a man say, ' why are women nice to men when they treat women like dirt'.
    I've heard a man say, 'if you knew what men say about women you would never talk to us again'
    I have seen women cry from rape.

    We do not have to live in a world of abuse.


    The first thing to to is be stronger.

    I want more for our daughters.

    Hm. I think a massive problem for Feminism is that the movement is in dire need of re branding and maybe coming up with better ways to engage with the general public.

    For example, in this post you frame everything in terms of "Men vs Women".

    I get that the idea is to shock people into outrage and action but any rational person is going to realize that woman can also be abusive and that not all relationships follow the traditional male and female template. I am sure that abusive lesbian relationships exist, for example.

    Feminism appears to stay relevant by generating outrage that is designed to inspire people to action or "discussion". This is mostly done through hyperbole and/or rhetoric.

    In the age of the internet this simply will not work. Too many rational and logical voices.

    Ultimately I think it damages Feminist causes. I'm amazed at how many online people believe so strongly in equal rights and yet are so strongly opposed to modern Feminist thinking.

    For every one supporter someone like Louise O'Neill acquires how many people does she leave thinking "well, this is some absolute BS, I guess Feminism isn't for me".

    Looking at your own posting history I could easily believe that you do more work to turn people off of Feminism that you actually do to improve the situation for women in the world.

    I could easily believe that you are an anti-Feminist troll who is turning people off Feminism by presenting this parody of the worst aspects of Feminism.

    Yourself and people like Louise O'Neill or Rosemary McCabe are, in my opinion, doing more harm than good. The saddest thing is that you are harming your own cause.

    Eventually someone is going to have to figure out that anti-Feminist bloggers etc are gaining popularity every single day because prominent Feminists are so arrogant and condescending and full of garbage.

    The movement needs to drastically change it's public persona.

    I think we can all agree that, in general, women and girls are more vulnerable in society that their male counterparts. Of course there are exceptions but on average it's true. In certain parts of the world this is so obvious it barely needs to be pointed out and we are at peak raised awareness.

    The role of Feminism should be to fix this. Instead First World Feminists seem hell bent on alienating potential allies and, frankly, making the entire movement look like a total joke.


  • #380
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Social media is a big factor as it essentially gives snowflakes a platform upon which they can air their whining and sob about being oppressed. Every second story I see now online is about some woman who has been "shamed" when in reality, if the same thing happened to a man it would just be "X happened". For some reason, when a woman is involved it becomes "shaming". I've lost count of the number of stories I've seen about women "shamed" for breastfeeding, for example and then she will take to social media to pen an open letter to the man who she thought might have glanced at her shamed her. Why not just confront him there and then? Whilst I agree that we need to foster a society that encourages more women to breastfeed, I think that a lot of these "shaming" stories are simply examples of women expecting to meet with confrontation and then projecting this onto anyone who happens to look in their direction.

    Also a lot of women seem to think that feminism is about being anti-man, without realizing that men can be feminists too!


  • #381
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    I also remember men on here saying that the feminists who discussed the UCD case should apologise and I thought why should they have to apologise, they assumed it was true as did many members of the public, nobody was publicly defamed why should they apologise, if it had been true their reaction was the right reaction and a normal one that many other people had.
    Oh sure, that makes it alright then. So promoting hysterics in the media about a group of people based on something that didn't happen is fine? Good to know. "If it had been true". [insert roll eyes here] Man the mindset of the modern "feminist" is truly something to behold.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #382
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    Hmmm they found no evidence for the case in UCD but there have been other cases like the PWC case where a group of men in the office were sending around pictures of the female interns and rating them, you don't have to look far to find examples. I also remember men on here saying that the feminists who discussed the UCD case should apologise and I thought why should they have to apologise, they assumed it was true as did many members of the public, nobody was publicly defamed why should they apologise, if it had been true their reaction was the right reaction and a normal one that many other people had.

    But it wasn't true, therefore it was the wrong reaction.


  • #383
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Also a lot of women seem to think that feminism is about being anti-man, without realizing that men can be feminists too!
    IMH any man who buys into modern "feminism" is a turkey voting for Christmas. He has either not read into it and/or has bought into the BS involved. And I'm including the mainstream movement too BTW. The usual response is the daftness is at the fringes, but it's not just the fringes anymore. The fringe has become ever more mainstream.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #384
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    But it wasn't true, therefore it was the wrong reaction.
    But.. but JC, they felt it might be true and that's what counts #sarcasm.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #385
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh sure, that makes it alright then. So promoting hysterics in the media about a group of people based on something that didn't happen is fine? Good to know. "If it had been true". [insert roll eyes here] Man the mindset of the modern "feminist" is truly something to behold.

    What? Nobody was defamed, the story was false, the UCD newspaper who reported it who didn't fact check properly were the ones at fault not the people who reacted to it and the people who reacted to it were also men. 'h:rolleyes: 'hysteria' is always a word that is associated with females, which implies that they are over emotional and irrational as opposed to their male counterparts who are calm collected unemotive, that is also a tool used to put down discussion.


  • #386
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Wibbs wrote: »
    IMH any man who buys into modern "feminism" is a turkey voting for Christmas. He has either not read into it and/or has bought into the BS involved. And I'm including the mainstream movement too BTW. The usual response is the daftness is at the fringes, but it's not just the fringes anymore. The fringe has become ever more mainstream.

    if they align themselves with what seems to be the current "feminist" ethos but I mean more that they are feminist in terms of what feminism actually meant before it was taken over by those who don't understand it.


  • #387
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,527 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't think it trivialises the crime any more than, say, "I'd murder a pint" trivialises murder. But again, it's semantics.

    This is at least the second long thread where I've seen far more people get upset about the term than the behaviour it describes...which should surely be the issue, right? I'm comfortable with it, I can't prescribe that you should be, but I still think acts like groping or the use of violent phrases like "I'd smash her" are far more objectionable than which 2 words are used as shorthand when objecting to it.


    I said it doesn't trivialise rape, but I noticed you said you don't think it trivialises the crime. Forgive me if I may be reading too much into it but given that I'm aware you work in the legal profession, you would be aware that there would be a difference between the generally understood definition of rape, and the legal definition of rape. You might suggest again it's semantics by way of reducing the importance of defining exactly what we're talking about here, but I would suggest that semantics are important in defining exactly what we're talking about because using a term like 'rape culture' implies a far more nefarious intent than the behaviour you're actually describing.

    'Rape culture', as it pertains to feminism, is defined as -

    Rape culture is a sociological concept used to describe a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality. There is disagreement over what defines rape culture and as to whether any societies currently meet the criteria for a rape culture.

    Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures.

    You're suggesting I should ignore how you choose to define such behaviour, and instead focus on the behaviour itself. But the problem with asking me to do that is that it allows for the definition to become so sufficiently broad, that other people use the same terminology in order to tar whole sections of society with the same brush, and that section of society is overwhelmingly men -

    A Gentleman’s Guide to Rape Culture

    If you are a man, you are part of rape culture. I know ... that sounds rough. You’re not a rapist, necessarily. But you do perpetuate the attitudes and behaviors commonly referred to as rape culture.

    You may be thinking, “Now, hold up, Zaron! You don’t know me, homey! I’ll be damned if I’m gonna let you say I’m some sorta fan of rape. That’s not me, man!”

    I totally know how you feel. That was pretty much exactly my response when someone told me I was a part of rape culture. It sounds horrible. But just imagine moving through the world, always afraid you could be raped. That’s even worse! Rape culture sucks for everyone involved. But don’t get hung up on the terminology. Don’t concentrate on the words that offend you and ignore what they’re pointing to — the words “rape culture” aren’t the problem. The reality they describe is the problem.

    Men are the primary agents and sustainers of rape culture.

    Rape isn’t exclusively committed by men. Women aren’t the only victims — men rape men, women rape men — but what makes rape a men’s problem, our problem, is the fact that men commit 99 percent of reported rapes.

    How are you part of rape culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man.

    So, first of all, I have to ignore the fact that you're defining behaviour and attitudes you find objectionable as an indication of 'rape culture', and then I have to accept a definition so broad that I can be accused of perpetuating this behaviour simply by virtue of the fact that I'm a man! That's called 'guilt by association', and that's where the objection to the use of the term lies -

    In order for us to have a conversation about the behaviour you're describing, I first have to accept using your terms which you can casually say are semantics, but the behaviour your terms imply is not the same as the behaviour you're describing, and then I must accept that by virtue of the fact that I am a man, I am guilty of perpetuating the behaviour you're talking about!

    Conor I'm Catholic, but even that level of self-flagellation is beyond the pale.


  • #388
    retro:electro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But then your issue is with the term "rape culture", rather than what it describes.

    I don't think those who use the phrase "rape culture" are nearly as objectionable as those who grope women, who objectify women (or indeed men), who say things like they'd "smash it" etc. For me that trivialises rape far more than those who object and use the phrase you don't like. As I said before, I'm happy to call it "frat boy culture" or whatever shorthand is used...but do you not agree that is far more of an issue than whatever words are used to describe it?

    No Conor. For the simple fact that it has nothing to do with rape. What rape culture supposition would have you believe is that saying things like "I'd smash it" and "I'd do some damage to her", trivialise rape insofar as they normalise rape. I don't see it that way as I can separate the two. A guy saying "I'd smash it" is probably an asshole, probably wants the ride, probably is showing off. Rape isn't about "wanting to smash it" nor is it rarely even about sex. It's about power and control, and is very rarely about getting the ride. One doesn't influence the other and one doesn't trivialise the other. Rape culture also supposes that society supports violence against women, do you think that is true for Ireland?
    Honestly it must be so easy for these feminists to come up with these bullish!t terms from the comfort of their cosy couch while sipping a glass of vino.

    Rape is not accepted here. Rape is never an accepted consequence for any situation.


  • #389
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    But it wasn't true, therefore it was the wrong reaction.

    But they didn't know that it wasn't true, they were writing opinion articles/ commentaries on news reports that made their way into the mainstream media based on the UCD college newspaper. We all acknowledged that it wasn't true but asking someone who thought it was true before it was found not to be true to apologise because the newspapers ran with it is a bit silly. The UCD college newspaper was at fault. If an individual had been named and their life ruined then that would have been different.


  • #390
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    if it had been true their reaction was the right reaction and a normal one that many other people had.

    And if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle. The point is that it wasn't true, but even in the face of this fact nobody backed down from the hysteria because "it could have been true". Do you honestly not see a problem with this?


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  • #391
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    The problem is that many feminists are desperately trying to apply tropes that are far more prevalent in the US for example (often due to that country being the culture in which the authors of the social studies texts they read in college are based in and are writing about) to a different place like Ireland.
    ...
    And it's time to speak honestly on this "rape culture" term - it's an intentionally loaded term (as well those who use it know) designed to shut down any discussion or questions on the situations to which it is applied - because to do so would be to be open to accusations of being a rape apologist (after the cries of "mansplainer" die down of course - that's a topic for another day), which nobody in their right mind would want to be accused of being because it's one of the most terrible things that can be be inflicted on one human being by another.
    ...
    If use of language is what your issue is, why not just call it for what it is instead of a term that is pretty much designed to make most reasonable people defensive? Do you really think that anyone, ever said "you know, I once thought rape was wrong but then Paddy told that joke once so now I think it's alright"?

    Rape cultures do exist though - it could definitely describe parts of India for example. To say Ireland has one, makes a mockery of those cases. That's not to say that rape doesn't happen here - it does, it's terrible. Murder happens too - it does not mean we are living in a murder culture. Society doesn't tolerate those that perpetrate these crimes - rapists need to be segregated in prison for their own safety, such are the people who break the law in this regard despised even amongst other law breakers.

    And yes, people who molest women are worse than people who use loaded, manipulative language to get their way in debates. What's your point? Who was comparing the two?

    I think we are poles apart.

    I don't know that rape culture, frat boy culture, call it what you will is far more prevalent in the USA. Can you quote some study or reference? And even if not as prevalent here, does that make it less objectionable?

    The only attempt to shut down debate seems to come from those who fixate on the term alone. Let's move past that to the issue itself.

    And the issue is not rape, as you suggest, because as you agree we all know that's an appalling crime. The issue is the culture that associates sex with violence, that objectifies women or indeed men. I think that, whatever term is used to describe it, it is prevalent and it is of concern, and anyone from Louise O'Neill with her clumsy witterings to articulate and intelligent feminists who highlight the issue are correct to do so.


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