Why are we hating all the men?

cloudatlas · 14-05-2017 08:41AM

mzungu wrote: »

Ahem....Mzungu!

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Not really bothered to be honest, just like your research into the position of the NWCI.

Will I Am Not · 14-05-2017 08:42AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm sorry that you don't buy it but you aren't reflecting the position of that organisation, just plucked a choice study from googley woogley. Went on their website they seem to support action on the pay gap from the links I found your choice quotes from this report doesn't support their position at all. Stronger sources for research have been linked to already i.e. EU commission who draw information from several sources for their reports and Morgan McKinley, but sorry it' all about lobbying those reports are all fake etc., no pay gap no marked difference in salary.

These are all RECENT reports and press releases detailing their position:

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/lack_of_action_will_cause_the_pay_gap_to_increase_further

Lack of action will cause the pay gap to increase further

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/nwci_at_the_national_economic_dialogue

NWCI at the National Economic Dialogue

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/nwci_calls_for_the_government_to_tackle_the_scale_of_the_challenge_for_wome

NWCI calls for the government to tackle the scale of the challenge for women’s economic equality

You are misrepresenting their position.

With regard to women's sport, I can't agree with that, they work hard don't get the coverage and they will never form a fanbase because they don't get the coverage and they haven't had it historically. I want to watch quality tennis, don't care if it goes to 5 sets or not. A lot of male tennis players supported gender pay equality in tennis I suppose they are the white knights you guys have been bleating on about.

Also not privy to private lives of folks at the school gates but majority are women and the house of commons stats also point to an easier route to fatherhood. All of that poses a question.

You say don't get the coverage, TV stations may say don't get the viewing figures.

The FA Cup final yesterday was a record attendance so maybe things are on the way up but it still didn't fill half the stadium.

cloudatlas · 14-05-2017 08:53AM

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You say don't get the coverage, TV stations may say don't get the viewing figures.

Yes partly because they don't have the same historic coverage to build up the fanbase, partly because of no promotion at all. The reverse is you can't complain about the viewing figures of something that is never on I suppose. The olympics brilliant in some respects because that is one of the rare times you get to see women compete on tv.

Samaris · 14-05-2017 08:53AM

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

You say don't get the coverage, TV stations may say don't get the viewing figures.

The FA Cup find yesterday was a record attendance so maybe things are on the way up but it still didn't fill half the stadium.

Well, no, they don't get half the advertisement or drumbeating that the men get. I mean, it goes both ways. You're essentially saying that X brand is better than Y brand while ignoring that TV doesn't promote Y brand but more people get the highly popularised X brand therefore X brand is what people want.

I'd absolutely watch the women's gymnastics before the men's. Don't really give a damn about hockey, football, etcetera, so I wouldn't watch either. But from an outside perspective, I would absolutely expect the more advertised and accessible "brand" to be the one that people get invested in. Means nothing for how good the "brands" actually are to use - er, watch.

Will I Am Not · 14-05-2017 09:11AM

Samaris wrote: »

Well, no, they don't get half the advertisement or drumbeating that the men get. I mean, it goes both ways. You're essentially saying that X brand is better than Y brand while ignoring that TV doesn't promote Y brand but more people get the highly popularised X brand therefore X brand is what people want.

I'd absolutely watch the women's gymnastics before the men's. Don't really give a damn about hockey, football, etcetera, so I wouldn't watch either. But from an outside perspective, I would absolutely expect the more advertised and accessible "brand" to be the one that people get invested in. Means nothing for how good the "brands" actually are to use - er, watch.

Nobody is going to pump a load of money into advertising and promoting women's football to the same extent as men's football because there's no return on it.

It absolutely does come down to the standard. The better leagues in the men's game are the most popular and most watched.
Unless you're a fan of those particular teams, nobody is watering at the mouth to see Doncaster Rovers play Wycombe Wanderers.

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2017 09:18AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Also not privy to private lives of folks at the school gates but majority are women and the house of commons stats also point to an easier route to fatherhood. All of that poses a question.

Which is?

Genuinely not being smart here but you alluded to acculturisation in your last post, which got me thinking about where you were coming from, but you never fleshed it out and I didn't want to be making assumptions when you appear to be arguing for gender equality, yet it's the from the perspective of an acculturised form of traditional feminism which I can get my head around - the feminism that argues for equality for women in areas where they aren't equal to men.

If that is your perspective, then you're not really arguing gender equality at all, which is grand, I won't haul you over coals for it, but you must be able to see that there's something off about arguing that men should put themselves at a disadvantage then (if you see women being the primary caregivers of children as putting them at a disadvantage), in order to achieve equality based solely on a persons gender!

(God I really hope that makes sense, because it's an interesting idea you bring up!!)

FWIW btw, I don't believe that the family courts or the judicial system or the law is based in favour of women solely on the basis that they are women, nor do I believe that the family courts or the judicial system or the law is based against men solely on the basis that they are men. I know it's not a point you raised, but it gets brought up a lot in these discussions and I think they are arguments that ignore acculturalisation.

Galwayguy35 · 14-05-2017 09:18AM

As long as The Irish times employs man hating ballbreakers like Mulally and McCabe to write for them the hate will continue.

And the comments section with each article shows that a lot agree with their views.

red ears · 14-05-2017 09:41AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd say in a fair few countries around the world you'd get people whooping and hollering as a young female rape victim would be stoned or flogged for being, well, a young female rape victim.

So yeah, I can imagine people cheering if the genders were reversed. And the Bobbitt interview doesn't really make me sick, albeit I find it distasteful.

But this happened in a western country where women have more freedom than anywhere else on earth. They have achieved equality yet they find the mutilation of a man hilarious. You can't compare that to some backward Islamic hellhole. That video shows an audience of western women whooping in glee at violent revenge on a 'cheating' man. It's a real eye opener to me that the cheering was pretty much universal among that audience.

Pure tashte · 14-05-2017 10:16AM

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

I was fairly handy at the old football. What I seen yesterday in that final was nothing more than the standard you would see in an AUL game in St Anne's Park on a Sunday morning.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's competitive and I enjoyed it for what it's worth but it's genuinely no higher a standard than your average Irish male grew up playing.

There may not be a way to test it out unless you get me a time machine but the example given to you where a team of 15 year old boys trashed the best team in women's football and another group of 15 year old Australian boys beat their national team 7-0...

I can't comment on the Australian boys game you've mentioned, but the American Women's game the other poster mentioned was against the Dallas FC u15 team ie the academy of one of the top clubs in the country, not a random bunch of young lads they picked up off the street.

Your attitude reminds me a bit of the backlash Stephanie Roche received after getting nominated or the Puskas award' "I've done that loads of times in 5-a-side!!"

infogiver · 14-05-2017 10:16AM

......... wrote: »

And the speaker isn't the most notable thing about that video, it's all the Irish women in the background cheering, applauding and supporting this hate speech. That is the real eye opener. This country has got serious problems coming, but who's awake to it and reporting it ?

Well you wouldn't have been at that rally/protest whatever it was if you weren't in the prevailing mindset.
Eventually a white straight man will be stabbed or something for breathing too loud or wearing a wristwatch and you'll have all the apologists out telling us it's understandable given the levels of patriarchal intimidation coming from the men

Will I Am Not · 14-05-2017 10:22AM

Pure tashte wrote: »

I can't comment on the Australian boys game you've mentioned, but the American Women's game the other poster mentioned was against the Dallas FC u15 team ie the academy of one of the top clubs in the country, not a random bunch of young lads they picked up off the street.

Your attitude reminds me a bit of the backlash Stephanie Roche received after getting nominated or the Puskas award' "I've done that loads of times in 5-a-side!!"

And your attitude reminds me of those women that say all women can do everything as good as all men just because so don't question me.

Individual goal awards mean very little. I've seen goals better then James Rodriguez's goal in 5 a side too. It's just an aesthetics award.
Stephanie Roche's goal was a beautiful goal and so I had no issue with it being there.

Pure tashte · 14-05-2017 10:38AM

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

And your attitude reminds me of those women that say all women can do everything as good as all men just because so don't question me.

Individual goal awards mean very little. I've seen goals better then James Rodriguez's goal in 5 a side too. It's just an aesthetics award.
Stephanie Roche's goal was a beautiful goal and so I had no issue with it being there.

I'm not trying to say that ladies teams would be able to compete against their male counterparts. That, of course, would be ridiculous. But coming on to boards and claiming you're of a higher skill level than some of the best female footballers in the world is equally ridiculous (unless, like I said, I'm grossly underestimating your skill level).

Men claiming they are better at something than women just because is one of the contributing factors to militant feminism IMO.

Will I Am Not · 14-05-2017 10:51AM

Pure tashte wrote: »

I'm not trying to say that ladies teams would be able to compete against their male counterparts. That, of course, would be ridiculous. But coming on to boards and claiming you're of a higher skill level than some of the best female footballers in the world is equally ridiculous (unless, like I said, I'm grossly underestimating your skill level).

Men claiming they are better at something than women just because is one of the contributing factors to militant feminism IMO.

What I'm trying to say is that the standard yesterday is no higher than Sunday league football in Ireland.
Maybe I'm being a bit hyperbolic in saying that I would have run rings around them all but I certainly wouldn't have looked out of place there... apart from the whole being a man thing obviously.

Widdershins · 14-05-2017 10:53AM

Sport *eyes glaze over*

......... · 14-05-2017 11:00AM

Sports players, actors, "celebrities", singers, performers, etc. are not financially remunerated based on gender, race, or even skill or talent.

They are paid based on one thing, and one thing only : Viewership figures and therefore how much they are worth in terms of capital to media companies, and advertisers.

Samaris · 14-05-2017 11:17AM

I think you'd want to get yourself out onto the field there, Sheikh. We're all obviously missing out on a world-class talent here!

Stick a wig on and have at it!

cantdecide · 14-05-2017 11:19AM

......... wrote: »

Sports players, actors, "celebrities", singers, performers, etc. are not financially remunerated based on gender, race, or even skill or talent.

They are paid based on one thing, and one thing only : Viewership figures and therefore how much they are worth in terms of capital to media companies, and advertisers.

Think about female supporters who follow the men's games over women's. It must be internalised misogyny, I'd imagine.

mzungu · 14-05-2017 11:24AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm sorry that you don't buy it but you aren't reflecting the position of that organisation, just plucked a choice study from googley woogley. Went on their website they seem to support action on the pay gap from the links I found your choice quotes from this report doesn't support their position at all.

My position was that it is not a job for job comparison. I picked the NWCI study because it was being quoted on most Irish media for quite some time. No "googley woogley" required. What I said reflected perfectly the results of the study. That the "pay gap" was 17% in favour of women up to age 30, then after it was skewed heavily in favour of men due to things like maternity breaks etc.

cloudatlas wrote: »

Stronger sources for research have been linked to already i.e. EU commission who draw information from several sources for their reports and Morgan McKinley, but sorry it' all about lobbying those reports are all fake etc., no pay gap no marked difference in salary.

Yes, the exact same EU commission report that says "part of the earnings difference can be explained by individual characteristics of employed men and women (eg, experience and education) and by sectoral and occupational gender segregation (eg, there are more men than women in certain sectors/occupations with, on the average, higher earnings compared to other sectors/occupations).". Like I said before, reform across industry is needed so any parent returning to work after raising children will not face a financial penalty.

You still have not shown that there are men getting paid more than women for doing the exact same job (remember, this is an illegal practice). Furthermore, the studies you are using back up my argument that the "pay gap" is down to lifestyle choices. When those lifestyle choices change, then you will find that things will start to level out.

cloudatlas wrote: »

These are all RECENT reports and press releases detailing their position:

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/lack_of_action_will_cause_the_pay_gap_to_increase_further

Lack of action will cause the pay gap to increase further

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/nwci_at_the_national_economic_dialogue

NWCI at the National Economic Dialogue

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php/learn/article/nwci_calls_for_the_government_to_tackle_the_scale_of_the_challenge_for_wome

NWCI calls for the government to tackle the scale of the challenge for women’s economic equality

None of that refutes anything I said. I refer you to my answer up above about the NWCI.

cloudatlas wrote: »

You are misrepresenting their position.

No, I'm not. You are misrepresenting mine.

cloudatlas wrote: »

With regard to women's sport, I can't agree with that, they work hard don't get the coverage and they will never form a fanbase because they don't get the coverage and they haven't had it historically. I want to watch quality tennis, don't care if it goes to 5 sets or not. A lot of male tennis players supported gender pay equality in tennis I suppose they are the white knights you guys have been bleating on about.

Firstly, I have not used the term "white knights". Secondly, I support equal pay in tennis. Both are a big box office draw so no problems there. However, if we want things to be truly equal then surely it should be the same amount of sets? The idea of women playing three sets dates back to a time when it was assumed they would not have the same stamina for it as the men. Personally, I think that is balderdash. I see no reason why any player on the WTA tour would not be able to play best of five sets.

cloudatlas wrote: »

Also not privy to private lives of folks at the school gates but majority are women and the house of commons stats also point to an easier route to fatherhood.

You have chosen to interpret it that way.

mzungu · 14-05-2017 11:27AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Not really bothered to be honest, just like your research into the position of the NWCI.

Afraid not, it would be your good self who doesn't appear to be bothered.

Curly Judge · 14-05-2017 11:36AM

Women journalists, just out of university, have to write about something.
Apart from Sarah Carey there hasn't been one worth reading since Nuala O'Faolain

Widdershins · 14-05-2017 11:58AM

Calhoun wrote: »

As I said that comes down to a baseline attraction to a certain type that does this. I find sex boring if we don't have fun what's the point ?

I doubt you can tell what they're like in bed before you go there with them?

......... · 14-05-2017 11:59AM

Curly Judge wrote: »

Women journalists, just out of university, have to write about something.
Apart from Sarah Carey there hasn't been one worth reading since Nuala O'Faolain

Good observation.
Are any Irish journalists worth reading these days ? Scant with facts and swimming with opinion and spin.

ancapailldorcha · 14-05-2017 12:02PM

......... wrote: »

Are any Irish journalists worth reading these days ? Scant with facts and swimming with opinion and spin.

Too much of modern journalism seems to involve so-called journalists pushing an ideology or an opinion rather than providing in-depth observation and analysis.

......... · 14-05-2017 12:04PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Too much of modern journalism seems to involve so-called journalists pushing an ideology or an opinion rather than providing in-depth observation and analysis.

It's a serious problem in the western media, that no one seems to want to talk about. That's what happens I suppose when a few billionaires own all the media outlets. I'm at a loss to find any decent journalism and reporting these days. Have you had any success ?

Rumpy Pumpy · 14-05-2017 12:06PM

......... wrote: »

It's a serious problem, that no one seems to want to talk about. I'm at a loss to find any decent journalism and reporting these days. Have you had any success ?

Nobody wants to pay for quality journalism these days. So you get clickbait shîte as a result. Solution would appear to be straightforward.

ancapailldorcha · 14-05-2017 12:06PM

......... wrote: »

It's a serious problem, that no one seems to want to talk about. I'm at a loss to find any decent journalism and reporting these days. Have you had any success ?

The problem is more that people are consuming this "journalism".

I try to read a variety of sources. I live in the UK and I read the BBC, the Guardian, The Economist and occasionally the Telegraph.

D0NNELLY · 14-05-2017 12:14PM

red ears wrote: »

But this happened in a western country where women have more freedom than anywhere else on earth. They have achieved equality yet they find the mutilation of a man hilarious. You can't compare that to some backward Islamic hellhole. That video shows an audience of western women whooping in glee at violent revenge on a 'cheating' man. It's a real eye opener to me that the cheering was pretty much universal among that audience.

The fact that he had to go so far to find the comparison shows how good we have it over here.. We're doing something right!!!

Yourself isit · 14-05-2017 01:49PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Too much of modern journalism seems to involve so-called journalists pushing an ideology or an opinion rather than providing in-depth observation and analysis.

There's no reporting or analysis. It's basically a form of blogging.

ancapailldorcha · 14-05-2017 01:50PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

There's no reporting or analysis. It's basically a form of blogging.

There is. People just need to be willing to support it by actually paying for it instead of getting it for free at which point it's more profitable to produce ideological clickbait.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 14-05-2017 01:55PM

https://www.facebook.com/seen.everything/videos/1154800587957810/
This reminded me of this thread

Why are we hating all the men?

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