Grayson wrote: » This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
Omackeral wrote: » There ya go.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines rape culture as “A society… whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalising or trivialising sexual assault and abuse”. Wikipedia adds: “Behaviours commonly associated… include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivialising rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.”
Of Foley’s victim, Father Sheehy said: “I don’t want to make any judgment on her at all, but obviously the whole situation must have been embarrassing, for the police to happen upon them and what-not. She’s the mother of a young child as well and, you know, that in itself doesn’t look great.”
ivytwine wrote: » Thank you for that Vela. That's articulated what I couldn't quite do. For me, without going into too much detail, it was a romantic relationship and he would probably be on here arguing there's a rape culture in Ireland if he uses boards. So I felt safe and that he was a "woke" person and he'd get it and he did not. At all. It damn near destroyed my mind. I again went into denial (not just a river in Egypt but Ivy's favourite place) and minimised how terrible he made me feel. Until again the psych pulled it out of me. it was a while ago and I've had a few flirtations since, I'm nearly back to square one with dating. And I resent him so much. And by extension people who talk a good game and act like they give a ****e when they actually don't. There isn't a going back with something like that, as you say. I've been really fortunate. I have only told a handful of people. One male friend has been incredible, in particular. And if there's a rape culture why have the vast majority of people I've spoken to about it been nothing but kind? People use "rape culture" as a meme are by and large using it to fuel their own agenda, whether that's an anti-male or anti-female agenda, or a way to further their career, or to curry favour. Not all of them have bad intentions, not by any means. They get outraged at something that is wrong and they want to stop it. But the problem is this is a CRIME. Have we ever had campaigns to "stop murder"? No cos that would be daft. People are taught murder is wrong, just as they are taught rape is wrong. And every year people disregard both of these basic social rules and decide to do it anyway. We can try and punish these people but some get away with it. Many campaigners I feel forget that there's tons and tons of us out there, people trying to negotiate their way through a world that won't be quite the same, and every one of us are different. Where's the practical help? Because hysteria is not helpful.
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » I grew up in Kerry-I know the town in question. Nobody supports rape there-nobody. Everyone was horrified by the case, and horrified even more by the actions of the people, and that one priest in particular. I cannot imagine how alone that poor girl felt seeing that happen. But that was an incident that nobody but the most insane would blame the entire 'people of Kerry' for.
johnnyskeleton wrote: » Let's not be jesuitical about this. LON and others are trying to assert that there is a pervasive culture that endorses or supports rape. She is not saying that some people are rapists even if most people disapprove of rapists. So saying that "rape culture" doesn't apply to everyone just a few people renders the whole thing meaningless. There is simply no insight or controversy in saying that some people are rapists or facilitate rapists and others are not. So what LON is saying is that the majority of our culture is supporting rape. So pick one of two of your strawmen. Either you believe that there is a pervasive majority culture that supports and endorses rape and we can discuss it with you, or you believe that a tiny minority of people support and endorse rape and we will agree with you, end of discussion. Yes. As every other poster on this thread has said, that was an awful situation. Luckily though, society through it's media got wind of this awful occurrence and brought widespread attention and condemnation towards those people. As an aside though, if this were a murder trial, and the accused was convicted of murder, I would be confident that many of his friends, family and acquaintances in the community would stand by him, and would maintain his innocence. This happens all the time. So while it is wrong that he got such overwhelming support after a guilty verdict, it is not that unusual. Sure Bob Dylan wrote a song about someone who he believed to have been falsely convicted (although later changed his mind). Making a murderer was also a popular show that heavily suggested that the subjects were falsely convicted. Again, not saying that it is right. As someone who believes in the jury system, I think people should respect that verdict while in court. But it happens all the time. If people standing by the person convicted of murder doesn't amount to murder culture, why is that case indicative of rape culture? Let me ask you another question - if a rape accused is acquitted and is sitting alone in the courtroom while dozens of people come up and console the complainant, is that equally wrong? If not, why not? I agree with that. But it completely misses the point. No one is disputing that there is a lot of bad stuff in the world. But people on this thread take issue with the fact that these often unconnected bad things are sewn together into a theory that we live in a patriarchal rape culture, and that if I complement a random woman on the street I am implicitly endorsing rape occurring in Kerry or Galway or indeed anywhere.
Grayson wrote: » I think just like therapists you have to shop around to get the right treatment and if it's not working for you, then you should go somewhere else. But as Vela said, unfortunately most people when they go to therapy are very vulnerable. And they also tend to see the therapist as an authority figure. So saying "this isn't working for me. And by this, I mean you" isn't something most feel comfortable with.
please helpThank YOU wrote: » I was just thinking for a min could Louise o Neill the rape culture expert be a member of boards and post here? ? just a thought came into my head ?
Grayson wrote: » That's providing a background to the issue but doesn't dismiss the fact that it happened. It's like me saying "Someone was speeding" and you saying "It was a blue car". The point of rape culture is that it diminishes rape in a number of ways. At the start of this article it gives two definitions of rape culture. The fact is that in the Kerry case they did try to dismiss it. Even after knowing the details of the case (which are pretty horrific) the parish priest still said "well, she was a single mother and that doesn't look good". What the **** does being a single mother have to do with anything. If you lived in Kerry do you think you'd feel comfortable reporting a sexual assault or do you think you'd fear the social ramifications of reporting it. Would you want to turn up at a trial when all the rapists friends turn up and support them in that manner? The majority of rapes go unreported because women are scared of the social stigma or are scared that they won't be believed. What sort of society is it where a woman who's raped is scared of societies judgement? And that's not just Kerry. That's throughout Ireland.
py2006 wrote: » Nope, apparently only straight and white males do.
Vela wrote: » One thing I've learned about romantic partners is that they often think they understand until they're faced with it head-on. And that's the kicker. I've had similar situations, one in particular, and I'd never excuse that behaviour from someone who's meant to care about you. Or from anyone. I understand the resentment so much, because when someone who's meant to 'know' you turns on you when you need them most - it's fcuking soul destroying. It set me back so much in my own recovery. But there is one thing that I've come to realise and that's that some people just aren't emotionally equipped to deal with it. And that's not your fault. That's just how it is. And it's on them - not you. That's not 'playing the victim' either, that's looking at a situation objectively and saying 'this person is a negative influence on my life and can't deal with my situation' and being strong enough to walk away. In the two main instances where I've experienced something like this, the people involved both had their own mental health sh1t going on at the time that I was unaware of. They've both since explained and apologised. It was too little too late in both cases, for something that had a devastating affect on me in both instances, but you can't carry that sh1t around with you so I've tried to accept those apologies. It's just a lot harder to forget. Anyway, my point from that is; it's very hard for someone who isn't a fully trained therapist to understand what a victim goes through, so it must be almost impossible for a friend or partner to understand. What it boils down to, is whether or not they try to understand. And if they don't, then it's inexcusable regardless. Also, similarly to you, my closest confidant and the person who got me through most of it was a male friend. So, rape culture? No. Narrow-mindedness? Selfishness? Narcissism? A lack of empathy? Yes - there's loads of that. And that's something that reveals itself in a lot of people once they're confronted with something like this. I guess it shows you who your real friends are.
Grayson wrote: » I wouldn't say everybody. There were enough people lining up to support the rapist. But that's the problem. If you look through my posts I'm made certain not to say that everyone is like that. It's a culture all right but a subculture might be a better word.
If you lived in Kerry do you think you'd feel comfortable reporting a sexual assault or do you think you'd fear the social ramifications of reporting it. Would you want to turn up at a trial when all the rapists friends turn up and support them in that manner? The majority of rapes go unreported because women are scared of the social stigma or are scared that they won't be believed. What sort of society is it where a woman who's raped is scared of societies judgement? And that's not just Kerry. That's throughout Ireland. This story below is intensely disturbing. The fact that so many people would turn up to support a man convicted of rape is freaky. It shows that in Kerry at least there is a culture (Or sub culture depending on how you classify it) which supports rapists rather than the victim.
ivytwine wrote: » The fact is that it's extremely relevant. Ireland is in denial about its class system but I can guarantee you as someone on the bottom rung of it in a rural town, as I grew up on, it exists. Is it rape culture to dismiss the experience of a lower class victim? Nope, it's class discrimination. In fact one of my main criticisms of much of the debate around rape culture is the focus on college campuses and consent classes. It excludes those who don't go to third level completely. Especially in the US. At least you've some chance of going to college in Ireland if you're working class. That priest is a moron. Wouldn't waste my time on him. He's not emblematic of a wider culture, not even in the Church, where such open discrimination against single parents is no longer acceptable. I think sexism was a factor, for sure, but class and "family reputation" and all sorts of bull that unless you grew up in a town like that it, it's hard to quantify all mixed up together to create a toxic mix. You've had a Kerry person point out to you the feeling towards this man in the county. Why would a Kerry rape victim be less willing to report?
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » No, you've very clearly insinuated that Kerry, in particular, has this 'rape culture'. And you've only now tried to back pedal on it. Your quotes below, just a selection, show a clearly wrong headed view. Seriously, what is your issue with this place in particular? There is no 'subculture' there is no 'culture' there either-you've implied it quite often, but each time it's just adding insult to injury. And the worst thing is-you don't get it. You don't get what you are saying-and how you're ignoring other cases in order to make a, arguably, heinous and abhorrent claim about an entire county, and the people within-many of whom have gone through the courts in order to prosecute their rapists (I know one person in particular who went to court as a teenager, to convict her rapist-she grew up in Kerry too, and your statement would insinuate that she was also supporting a rape culture-and that by even setting foot in court, she hadn't a hope of proving she was raped. Yet her rapist did 10+ years in jail). Tim Allen, Darina's husband, was convicted of posession of child pornography-instead of going to jail, he paid 40 grand, and did community service. This, despite paying for images of children being abused and molested, and thus actually helping support a paedophilia network (he was tracked based on his credit card purchases). Do we now say that Ballymaloe cookery school, of which he was a part (and is still seen there, on occassion, from what I've heard) supports paedophiles, or a 'rape culture'? I mean, he brought his family to court with him, kids and wife in tow-does that mean everyone associated with Ballymaloe is now a 'rape apologist'? What the Allen's did was a completely scum bag thing to do-I wouldn't have allowed the guy any where near any member of my family. But I cannot paint the entire people of Ballymaloe, be they employed by the cookery school or locals near it, as rape apologists. I would also be angry at the judge who claimed the images 'were on the lesser scale of abuse pictures'... Yet Darina and her family got a ton of support and 'hugs' after Allen's conviction-arguably far more than 50 people. People visted Darina at farmer's markets and offered her 'support'. Does that imply a 'paedophilia' culture there too? RTE even aired a Darina Allen cooking show, shortly after the case-when people were 'FURIOUS' with it, RTE made the 'oh, she wasn't involved in what Tim did'-so now RTE are paedophilia apologists too? (Well, kind of. Allen had filmed one series for RTE, of a cooking show, but it didn't return-this was years before his arrest). Do you think any of the children within those images were supported? No, they continued to be abused...and Allen helped. (In the same week Allen avoided jail, another guy went to prison for 7 days on a conviction of throwing a cigarette out a window-this despite the guard who made the claim being unable to tell what type of cigarette it was-a rolled up one, a herbal one, or one of those pre-made box ciggies).
Grayson wrote: » And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.
Grayson wrote: » I'd be less likely to report a crime if I thought my town would turn against me. And if I thought my attacker would be surrounded by his friends in court who'd stand there and shake his hands after he was found guilty. What's worse in this case is that he wasn't even her alleged attacker. The trail was nearly complete.
Grayson wrote: » I'm not a rapist. I'm assuming that most of the guys I know aren't rapists. I've heard nothing from them or anyone else to suggest they have bad attitudes towards any women. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who have backwards attitudes. In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing. The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).
Grayson wrote: » No, I've always said that it's not everyone. I've always said "culture" does not imply everyone. I know you're taking it personally but I've never said that Kerry as a whole has a rape culture. And I stand by what I said about society as a whole. Women should not be afraid of stigma when reporting a sexual assault. As a society we need to make sure that it doesn't happen. The reason women feel afraid of reporting is partly because of incidents like that in Kerry.
Grayson wrote: » That's providing a background to the issue but doesn't dismiss the fact that it happened. It's like me saying "Someone was speeding" and you saying "It was a blue car". The point of rape culture is that it diminishes rape in a number of ways. At the start of this article it gives two definitions of rape culture. The Oxford English Dictionary defines rape culture as “A society… whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalising or trivialising sexual assault and abuse”. Wikipedia adds: “Behaviours commonly associated… include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivialising rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.”
Grayson wrote: » The fact is that in the Kerry case they did try to dismiss it. Even after knowing the details of the case (which are pretty horrific) the parish priest still said "well, she was a single mother and that doesn't look good". What the **** does being a single mother have to do with anything.
Grayson wrote: I wouldn't say everybody. There were enough people lining up to support the rapist. But that's the problem. If you look through my posts I'm made certain not to say that everyone is like that. It's a culture all right but a subculture might be a better word.
Grayson wrote: There's one good thing about the kerry case and that's that those idiots who supported the rapist got ripped apart for it. They now realise that that sort of behaviour is unacceptable.
Grayson wrote: The problem is that those attitudes do exist in society and they do pollute the discourse. That's why so many women fear saying they were raped. What we need is more of the reaction to the Kerry case whilst at the same time not denying that these people exist and that there is a problem.
Grayson wrote: And here's the thing about rape culture. In a discussion about whether or not it exists, the causes don't matter. If you try to say that it's class etc then you admit it does exist but you're just saying why.
Grayson wrote: I'm not a rapist. I'm assuming that most of the guys I know aren't rapists. I've heard nothing from them or anyone else to suggest they have bad attitudes towards any women. That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who have backwards attitudes.
Grayson wrote: In a European survey on attitudes to gender based violence, including rape, 7% of irish women and 11% of irish men said that sex without consent is OK if the woman is wearing sexy clothing. The good news is that a huge majority said it wasn't acceptable, but still the number that said it was is shocking. (As a side note, the best performing countries in Europe were in Scandanavia where 3% said it was ok. The worst was Romania where 25% of people said it was ok).
QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the following circumstances? (SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE) Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing Being drunk or using drugs Flirting beforehand Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back Being out walking alone at night, Having several sexual partners Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date If the assailant does not realise what they were doing If the assailant regrets his actions None of these Refusal (SPONTANEOUS) Don't know
Smegmaniac17 wrote: » The case in Kerry was indeed horrific but it was also exceptional. It seems to me to be very insensitive and misguided to make a claim that there is a culture in Kerry that supports rapists based on one exceptional case , as appalling as it is! I know if I was a proud Kerry person, I wouldn't be too happy about that!
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » We see class systems all the time-Tim Allen, the chef, as I mentioned. He got so much support from locals, it was disgusting. OR the Judge Curtin case- where the warrant used to obtain child porn off of his computer was a day out of date. So he walked free from court, despite him being clearly guilty. Do you honestly think that if he was 'Joe Curtin, the plumber' that he'd have gotten away so easily? He only stepped down from his job by claiming health problems-he could still be working as a judger but for people clamoring for him to 'do the right thing' regarding not presiding over cases. (His ex-wife was also the mayor of tralee at one point, and is a former solicitor who lectures in the college in Tralee). Class played a huge part in his case. It plays a huge part all the time-the IRish presenters caught for drink driving, who go on TV all the time. Some of them read the weather to us...to me, that would show a sad symptom of our drink culture-but there is far more evidence of that than 'rape culture'.
please helpThank YOU wrote: » I was up in front of judge curtin he told he would sent me to jail for not paying a parking ticket in Kerry years ago and I got smart with him and he told 3 times he would jail me for contempt of court and the garda in the court came over and never to speak to judge in that manner and look what he was doing I bet the same garda from the court made a mistake in the summons thats old trick the garda use with there mates wink wink brown envelope
mzungu wrote: » Do some people in the country engage in the above? Yes, they sure do. However, I don't think that could be used to describe society at large. Could we say Americans are pro-castration because the audience laughed at Sharon Osbourne's joke about some man having his bits chopped off by his wife? Also, Lorena Bobbitt is not exactly a hate figure either, so could we not say that kind of violence is accepted among the population? I don't think so anyways. We can pick and choose stuff like the above and draw conclusions from it, but that does not mean they are in any way accurate. They are utter imbeciles, but I would imagine if he had beaten a man to death he would have got the same reception. They were there to support him no matter what the crime. As for the priest....well, that is a scumbag comment. But I don't think we can take the utterances of a parish priest as some kind of social critique. That might be the one and only time in the past 25 years that anybody in the country took notice of anything a priest has said. Mainly because they were disgusted by what he said. Yep, you didn't say everyone was at it, but a subculture could mean anything one wants it to mean and it could be as large or small depending on who you wish to ask. This casts a net far and wide to the point of making things pretty meaningless. There is probably a subculture out there that claims Tony McCarroll* was the brains behind Oasis. It doesn't mean that wider society thinks so, or that other Oasis subculture groups might share the same view. A few outliers does not equate to society at large. Aye, they were ripped apart by a society that abhors what they did. When has Irish society (other than those folks in Kerry) ever reacted with anything other than horror over a rape case? If that kind of thing in Kerry was happening consistently then there might be something to it. But it made headlines and everybody remembers it precisely because it was out of the norm. I don't deny for a second that these people exist and that those attitudes do exist. All kinds of horrible attitudes exist in Irish society. Thankfully in a minority otherwise we would all be facing violence as part of everyday life. I just don't believe it equates to Ireland having a "rape culture" any more than we have a "murder culture" or "assault culture". What we have is the dregs of society acting like like dregs of society do, and always will do. As regards sentencing, I think they are too lenient (same for most crimes) and much longer sentences for sexual offences would be a good starting point. *They say the drumming on Definitely Maybe is crap, but I think it suits the sound of the album just fine. On balance, they were right to sack him all the same.
RabbleRouser2k wrote: » That's interesting, and also a tragedy if it was true. The claim made at the time was that they could not get the summons to him, because he had been travelling, or away from his home-so they could not guarantee him seeing the warrant. Then when it ran out... Things got real serious.
please helpThank YOU wrote: » why are the Feminist groups not talking about this Judge Curtin in Kerry and the Garda in kerry and we want a public public inquiry ? because if the went the minster of justice Frances Fitzgerald Louise o Neill the rape culture expert should meet Frances and have cup of tea and tell her I want a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and bring with you rape/networks go with the Feminist groups and see whats happens to them you know what happens whistle blower in Ireland.
Grayson wrote: » Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are. And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing? 10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount. Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes. It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).
Smegmaniac17 wrote: » Was this post supposed to be addressed at me?
