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Bust Éireann

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    they have to travel when they have to travel. if they didn't need to travel they wouldn't be traveling.
    To suggest that everyone making a trip using a FTP can't do it at another time is laughable.
    the peak time restrictions were abolished because they brought nothing to the table.
    They were abolished as part a vote buying exercise by Fianna Fail.
    I've seen an elderly man having the middle doors closed on him on a bus once.
    It's unsafe for people like that and is a waste of limited capacity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    sadly incorrect. if more money is spent on busses it is money that has been budgeted to spend on busses. if for whatever reason it isn't spent on busses then it doesn't get spent. a countries budget doesn't operate along the lines of how one would operate a household or company budget unfortunately

    So where do you think money which isn't spent goes? They don't keep it for a rainy day.

    Budget redirection and re-allocation occurs all the time when there is a surplus for whatever reason be it underspenditure or a cancelled order for buses etc or when cuts are required to prop up another department.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    To suggest that everyone making a trip using a FTP can't do it at another time is laughable.
    They were abolished as part a vote buying exercise by Fianna Fail.
    I've seen an elderly mane having the middle doors closed on him on a bus once.
    It's unsafe for people like that and is a waste of limited capacity.

    the FTP and Rural Ireland are red herrings in this discussion and straight out of the Union playbook . Their elimination would do little to correct the problems in the company


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    To suggest that everyone making a trip using a FTP can't do it at another time is laughable.

    not their job to not travel to suit you. sorry about that.
    They were abolished as part a vote buying exercise by Fianna Fail.

    they were abolished because they brought nothing to the table.
    I've seen an elderly mane having the middle doors closed on him on a bus once.
    It's unsafe for people like that and is a waste of limited capacity.

    yeah. yeah. that's not a reason to bring back something that was removed because it brought nothing to the table. capacity is irrelevant as an argument. you aren't entitled to a seat, you are only entitled to travel.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,489 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    not their job to not travel to suit you. sorry about that.
    yeah, but we're actually having a discussion on the options available to resolve the issued faced... Stop trying to shut the discussion down
    they were abolished because they brought nothing to the table.
    Proof?
    Buses and trains are packed to the rafters at rush hour, allowing a significant additional number of journeys at this time to be made for free was/is just irresponsible vote buying. Can you provide details of the FF proposal that showed there'd be no additional issues caused by it?

    yeah. yeah. that's not a reason to bring back something that was removed because it brought nothing to the table. capacity is irrelevant as an argument. you aren't entitled to a seat, you are only entitled to travel.
    how is capacity irrelevant?, is the constraining factor and extremely expensive to provide more, especially when there are vastly cheaper options available to better use the existing capacity.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    I would advocate a €10 "registration fee" for the free travel pass. I mean there is 1.2 million people using it FFS.
    I am also acutely aware that any changes to the free travel pass would ironically see all those entitled to it making us of it to protest outside the Dáil :rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    markpb wrote: »
    The cost of transporting someone at peak times is more than the cost of transporting them earlier or later. Transport operators around the world try to encourage people to travel off peak for that reason. If someone is gifted free transport by the state, wouldn't it make sense for them to be encouraged to travel at a time when it's cheaper for the state? If someone is going shopping or feeding the ducks, those trips are definitely discretionary.



    I'm sorry, what!? This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a very long time! Do you think that allocating money on buses but not buying them magically makes extra capacity?

    Using bus services to go out socialising, in any town or city centre, to pubs and clubs are also discretionary, but would you argue that they are less important passengers than anyone else who uses buses and trains for other reasons?

    I got a 109A recently, that left Bus Aras at 3.25am, and after it picked up at the airport, it was full of passengers, until it got to Ashbourne, where many of the passengers got out, and then more got out at Ratoath. Many of the passengers who alighted at Ashbourne and Ratoath were more than likely in pubs and clubs, and were availing of this recently introduced 24 hour service.

    I would never argue that because they didn't need to go out socialising that they were less important passengers than someone else using the bus for other reasons, for example, getting on at the airport.

    I would take the view that it is good that they are using the service and their reasons for using the bus are no one else's business.

    Where does judging passengers, because of their reasons for using a bus, end?

    Is someone using a bus to go to Dublin to watch a GAA match in Croke Park, or a rugby match in the Aviva Stadium, more important a passenger than someone going to the Abbey Theatre, or someone going into town socialising with their mates?

    This issue of Older people using free travel passes was highlighted recently on RTE Liveline. One caller spoke of how she has a pass, and that she is of the age to be eligible for a pass. She made the point that while she has the pass, she and others of a similar age, contribute to other aspects of the economy in Dublin, by spending money in the city centre.

    A study in the UK, highlighted how, while many older people use their free travel passes, that they contribute to the economy if their local towns and cities, in other beneficial ways.

    http://www.greenerjourneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Concessionary-travel-costs-and-benefits-September-2014.pdf

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/09/scrapping-free-bus-travel-older-people-cost

    An Active Retirement Ireland study, dating from 2012, discusses how older people who avail of the free travel pass, contribute to the economy, in other ways.

    http://www.activeirl.ie/download/news/Free%20Travel%20Scheme%20Position%20Paper%20FINAL%2021%20June%202012.pdf?PHPSESSID=155475ae956892eb5be4fb5c6087d92b

    It states:

    Section 3.4 Contribution ARI members make to domestic tourism/local economies

    "While the benefits of the Free Travel Scheme to older people are numerous it should not be viewed as a one way street. The benefits are reciprocal since older people who use the Free Travel Pass; many ARI members among them, also generate positive outcomes which benefit the Irish economy, namely through domestic tourism on the island of Ireland and in their support for local economies through patronage of businesses, eateries, hotels and other amenities which they access by using their Free Travel Passes".

    3.4.1 Domestic Tourism

    "According to a report by Failte Ireland, the domestic market is the best performing market in Ireland at present, with more than half (54%) of all hotels surveyed reporting an increase in domestic volume. According to the report, repeat visitors are currently “holding up the industry …proving to be invaluable in keeping businesses going during hard times”.

    "This is reflected in the number of ‘trips’ (holidays which involve at least one overnight stay) taken in 2009 the domestic market is the best performing market in Ireland at present, with more than half (54%) of all hotels surveyed reporting an increase in domestic volume. According to the report, repeat visitors are currently “holding up the industry …proving to be invaluable in keeping businesses going during hard times”.
    43 by domestic tourists. “In 2009, a total of 8.3 million trips were taken within the Republic by Irish residents, with an associated expenditure of €1.4 billion.”

    "This is significant because the age of Irish domestic tourists is steadily increasing. “Holiday trips by those in the 20-49 age bracket have shown a downward trend in recent years while those aged 50 and over have shown a concomitant rise reflecting a trend towards increasing age in the domestic holiday market.”

    "This is borne out by the statistics, as 42% of domestic tourists in 2009 were aged between 50-70 plus years, while 23% of domestic tourists were aged 60-70 plus years. In 2009 revenue from domestic holiday trips was €843 million. €354 million of this revenue is due to those over 50 years old. This is 42% of the overall revenue from domestic tourism for that year".

    "Expenditure on the Free Travel scheme in 2010 on those aged 66 years or older was €53.5 million.45The Department of Social and Family Affairs also provides funding of €1.5million towards the Rural Transport Programme, in addition to that provided by the Department of Transport, to cover the cost of journeys undertaken by Free Travel pass holders. To date no research has been carried out to ascertain the type of travel Free Pass recipients use their passes for or how many of those use it for the purposes of domestic tourism. However, it is acceptable to surmise that a withdrawal by Government of the Free Travel pass would have a detrimental impact on domestic tourism in the future".

    3.4.2 Local Economies

    "To date no research has been carried out to determine how much this target group contributes to their local economies. However, based on data released by the Department of Social Protection, it is possible to estimate a guess. Based on the latest figures available, there are currently 688,000 Free Travel pass holders in Ireland. At least two thirds of these recipients are 66 years of age or over".

    "The Household Budget Survey 2009-10 conducted by the Central Statistics Office recorded an average expenditure per household on food, alcohol, clothing and footwear, household (non-durables and durables) of €257.42 per week. This equals 31.7% of an average household’s weekly net income.
    If we calculate what this percentage equates to as a proportion of the State Pensions and multiply by 450,00048 we can cautiously estimate the potential financial contribution made by older people to local economies each week".


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    sadly incorrect. if more money is spent on busses it is money that has been budgeted to spend on busses. if for whatever reason it isn't spent on busses then it doesn't get spent. a countries budget doesn't operate along the lines of how one would operate a household or company budget unfortunately.

    Sadly you're the one who is incorrect.
    If they increase the allocation for buses, they have to decrease their allocation of money somewhere else.
    They can't just magic it up out of nowhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,140 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    ED E wrote: »
    Expecting sense from him is asking too much.

    Absolutely!

    I can't believe your post remained. I'm out for now. I can't be bothered reading his crap anymore, while he blatantly ignores valid questions in order to suit his opinions. Threads are being ruined by it and the "thanks" that follow. I'm on a warning so I'll take my own break.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I would advocate a €10 "registration fee" for the free travel pass. I mean there is 1.2 million people using it FFS.
    I am also acutely aware that any changes to the free travel pass would ironically see all those entitled to it making us of it to protest outside the Dáil :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    A registration fee would unfortunately do nothing to discourage frivolous use (eg OAPs going shopping during 8am rush rather than waiting until 10am) and I dare say very few people would be discouraged from applying for completely free transport for a one off €10 fee.

    The only way to combat frivolous use of the FTP is to charge a nominal fare for each journey, perhaps only peak hour journeys. Leap will enable this quite easily. This would just bring Ireland into line with other socialist countries like Germany!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yeah, but we're actually having a discussion on the options available to resolve the issued faced... Stop trying to shut the discussion down.

    i'm clearly not trying to shut the discussion down.
    Buses and trains are packed to the rafters at rush hour, allowing a significant additional number of journeys at this time to be made for free was/is just irresponsible vote buying. Can you provide details of the FF proposal that showed there'd be no additional issues caused by it?.

    they would be packed whether ftp users traveled or not. they aren't all traveling at peak times but they are rightly allowed to do so if they wish. it's their transport service as well as ours.
    how is capacity irrelevant?, is the constraining factor and extremely expensive to provide more, especially when there are vastly cheaper options available to better use the existing capacity.

    more capacity will have to be provided going forward anyway to encourage growth. the other options inconvenience people which as a keen supporter of public transport, i don't wish to see happen.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    murphaph wrote: »
    A registration fee would unfortunately do nothing to discourage frivolous use (eg OAPs going shopping during 8am rush rather than waiting until 10am) and I dare say very few people would be discouraged from applying for completely free transport for a one off €10 fee.

    The only way to combat frivolous use of the FTP is to charge a nominal fare for each journey, perhaps only peak hour journeys. Leap will enable this quite easily. This would just bring Ireland into line with other socialist countries like Germany!

    You are ignoring that issue, that it has been shown, that older people, who are eligible for the free travel pass, contribute in other ways to the economy by spending money in the town centres and city centres, in which they avail of trains and buses.

    Do you regard the money spent in towns and cities by older people, of less value than other people?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    mccarthy article echoing what many of us here are saying...

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/bus-row-offers-a-chance-to-tackle-transport-realities-35502873.html
    Bus row offers a chance to tackle transport realities
    Taxpayers remain on the hook for a system of public transport provision that is crying out for fundamental reform, writes Colm McCarthy

    While the suspension of strike notice at Bus Eireann and the resumption of talks between unions and management may result in some form of interim settlement, the underlying problems at the company, and more broadly in the CIE bus and rail business, are not being addressed. Demand for intercity public transport is in decline and the costs of meeting this demand through the CIE model are excessive. The minister has wisely kept away from the talks, keeping the taxpayers' chequebook out of danger for now. But the taxpayer remains on the hook for a system of public transport provision crying out for fundamental reform.
    Breathless reportage to the effect that 110,000 commuters (the daily average number of Bus Eireann return journeys) faced 'chaos', the term employed repeatedly on RTE broadcasts, had tomorrow's strike gone ahead is a considerable exaggeration. Many Bus Eireann users can take a bus provided by private operators, take a train or cadge a lift. Indeed, just last week the National Transport Authority shrugged off the management's discontinuation of some Expressway services with the observation that alternative bus and rail services are already adequate, raising the rather obvious question of the need for a State bus company at all.

    In 2014, the Central Statistics Office surveyed more than 10,000 households about their travel habits. They found that only 4.4pc of trips made by Irish adults use the bus. This percentage includes private bus companies and Dublin Bus. The portion of adults relying on Bus Eireann, which provides intercity, rural and provincial city services, must be well under 2pc of the total - the private companies are popular on many routes and Dublin Bus serves more daily journeys than all of Bus Eireann's operations put together.
    The all-out strike still looming at Bus Eireann follows the (arguably illegal) industrial action threatened by members of An Garda Siochana late last year. On that occasion, the Government effectively capitulated by permitting the Labour Court to make an award which has already had knock-on consequences for the public pay bill. There is a difference though: An Garda Siochana is a monopoly, as are the schools and hospital systems where strikes are also possible due to the undermining of the Lansdowne Road Agreement. Bus Eireann is just one among many actual and potential providers of public passenger transport.

    The National Transport Authority's conclusions on management proposals to cut or scrap some Expressway routes are revealing. The Authority is responsible for the allocation of licences to bus operators and the distribution of state cash to Bus Eireann for routes deemed to be non-commercial. All of Bus Eireann's Expressway routes are meant to be unsubsidised and most of them have competitors. The company's management announced its intention to scrap three routes and to cut frequency on two more, Limerick to Dublin and Galway to Dublin. These are two of the busiest intercity routes in the country, are served by regular rail services which enjoy enormous subsidies and there are private operators offering frequent scheduled bus services on both routes. For example, on Dublin-Limerick, between Expressway and its main private competitor, weekly combined frequency will be 218 services, down from 242 before the announced Expressway cuts, plus frequent train departures. Not surprisingly, the authority proposed no response to the frequency reduction by Expressway and took the same view, for the same reason, in the case of Dublin-Galway.

    Bus Eireann management also announced the complete withdrawal of service on Clonmel-Dublin and Derry-Dublin. In both cases, the authority deemed the existing alternative services to be adequate. In just one of five routes identified for service reduction or withdrawal, Westport to Athlone, did the authority choose to offer increased subsidy, thus activating the aforementioned taxpayers' chequebook.

    Back in the 1990s, when the Irish government finally got around to the construction of a proper national road network, it was obvious, and was widely noted, that there would be consequences for intercity transport. Unsubsidised air services between Dublin and Cork have disappeared, a consequence of the disappearance of the tailbacks in Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Abbeyleix and elsewhere. The delights of an unexpected half-hour in Mountrath have similarly been denied travellers from Limerick to Dublin, resulting in the demise of air links between Dublin and Shannon.

    There were subsidised air connections at one time between Dublin and the cities of Galway, Sligo and Waterford, now a stress-free two-hour car trip. But the response of government to the inevitable increased popularity of car and bus travel was to spend hundreds of millions on rail improvements, resulting in extra capacity and further pressure on Expressway.

    The weakness of the trade union position is precisely that a Bus Eireann strike can cause only limited 'chaos', because Bus Eireann is no longer a key provider of passenger transport in Ireland. Some travellers would indeed be inconvenienced but the only strength in the trade union case is that Bus Eireann is State-owned and trade unions in State-companies enjoy unusual privileges in Ireland. Minister Shane Ross is reluctant to 'settle' the dispute, occasioned by a pay claim against a company facing insolvency, with taxpayer cash. This is unsporting of the minister and he has been roundly denounced for inactivity.

    Solutions were offered in the Dail last week by both the Labour Party and Sinn Fein. Labour suggested that the bus sector should be covered by a binding overall pay-and-conditions deal, imposing the excess payroll costs of Bus Eireann on its competitors. Sinn Fein suggested that the licences (already restrictive) available to private bus companies should be further curtailed. Either 'solution' would screw bus customers, taxpayers, or both. Nobody in the Dail had the imagination to suggest the closure of the motorways, which would surely push people back on to public transport.

    The elephant in the public transport room is actually Irish Rail, not Bus Eireann or Dublin Bus. Both of the bus companies are unable to cover their capital and operating costs from customer revenue and there are sizeable subsidies.

    A case can, of course, be made for subsidies for public transport, but it is weak, and contrary to EU directives, in intercity transport where private operators are willing to offer unsubsidised service. But the subsidy cost of CIE bus operations, which carry far more passengers, is dwarfed by the annual subvention to Irish Rail. Between capital and operating subvention, the railway company received over €300m in 2015, more than the entire revenue of Bus Eireann.

    In order to deflect the accusations of inactivity, the minister should consider three initiatives while the management-union negotiations proceed. He should prepare and publish a factual comparison of pay and productivity in Bus Eireann and in the unsubsidised private bus sector. He should make it clear that licence restrictions on the scheduling and capacity of the private bus companies will be suspended if there is a renewed threat of strike action against Bus Eireann. There is no need for army lorries this time round.

    Finally he should clarify that Bus Eireann will face no penalties for non-performance of contracted services occasioned by a trade union dispute.

    The Bus Eireann row is an opportunity to come to terms with the new realities in Irish public transport.

    Sunday Independent


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view. bus eireann is a key provider of public transport because it operates a hell of a lot of routes, the vast majority of which are PSO services, and they are the only operator on a number of them, maybe even a majority. so to suggest it would cause little inconvenience had there been a strike is laughable. secondly, it isn't the job of the minister or anyone else to suspend anything in relation to bus licences. the bus licences are the bus licences and the terms of those licences are the terms of the licences. he also fails to realise bus eireann don't receive penalties should strike action have happened, they simply wouldn't have been paid for operating services for the day or days they wouldn't have operated, as, well, they didn't operate services. he had to get another rant in against the railway of course.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Some surprising points made by McCarthy there.

    Is public transport intercity in decline? I was under the impression that it was on the increase. Driven by the private operators.

    He also calls for a comparison on pay. Sure that was already released, we know Bus Eireann drivers are getting overtime frequently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view.

    That's why he is a well respected economist and you are not. Hell, you don't even have much respect in this thread, posting waffle, belligerence and ignoring questions put to you.

    Bus Eireann are not critical to transportation infrastructure. Take rural Donegal as an example, it is only private companies that connect Letterkenny to West Donegal and Inishowen. Bus Eireann are not needed and nobody is asking for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    salonfire wrote: »
    Bus Eireann are not critical to transportation infrastructure. Take rural Donegal as an example, it is only private companies that connect Letterkenny to West Donegal and Inishowen. Bus Eireann are not needed and nobody is asking for them.

    they are critical to quite a large amount of the country. they are needed by those who rely on them. by all means don't like it but we have to deal with reality and not wishful thinking.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view. bus eireann is a key provider of public transport because it operates a hell of a lot of routes, the vast majority of which are PSO services, and they are the only operator on a number of them, maybe even a majority. so to suggest it would cause little inconvenience had there been a strike is laughable. secondly, it isn't the job of the minister or anyone else to suspend anything in relation to bus licences. the bus licences are the bus licences and the terms of those licences are the terms of the licences. he also fails to realise bus eireann don't receive penalties should strike action have happened, they simply wouldn't have been paid for operating services for the day or days they wouldn't have operated, as, well, they didn't operate services. he had to get another rant in against the railway of course.

    I heard Ian O'Doherty, columnist with the Irish Independent, speaking on Pat Kenny's show on Newstalk, talking about an option in rural areas of having buses every five hours, "something like that" as a way to cut back on services.

    It's very easy for someone like Ian O'Doherty, who, as far as I know, lives in Dublin - where the frequency of services, buses and trains, darts, private coach services, Dublin Bus services, in and around the city centre and to and from the city centre and outer regions of Dublin, private coach services and Bus Éireann services, to and from Dublin, are far greater than anywhere else in the country - to say this!

    The subject wasn't properly discussed because after about a minute Pat Kenny wanted to get to his Get Smart Quiz. Anyway Ian O'Doherty didn't particularly strike me as really knowing what he was talking about.

    http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/34337/03rd_March_2017_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_3/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    they are critical to quite a large amount of the country. they are needed by those who rely on them. by all means don't like it but we have to deal with reality and not wishful thinking.

    2pc is a large amount in your world is it. Let us know when you return to earth again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    they are critical to quite a large amount of the country. they are needed by those who rely on them. by all means don't like it but we have to deal with reality and not wishful thinking.

    Indeed. The issue is, the current situation is that Bus Éireann is currently covering parts of rural Ireland, that are not covered by private coach services.

    Even is the argument could be made that private coaches could run those same routes, what evidence is there that these private coaches would apply to run the routes that are currently only served by Bus Éireann?

    That is why I think the response by the NTA to questions posed by the various public representatives at the Joint Oireachtas meeting on 22nd February is important, with regard to the response by the NTA to that question - that no assurance could be given by the NTA, on the question of whether or not replacement services by other bus companies, would cover, the same routes and times, currently served by Bus Éireann.

    Also, another aspect of the free travel pass scheme, there are older people in rural areas, who live well off main roads that would be served by buses, who are eligible to have free travel passes, but do not use them that often, or at all, because buses do not serve their local roads.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Absolutely!

    I can't believe your post remained. I'm out for now. I can't be bothered reading his crap anymore, while he blatantly ignores valid questions in order to suit his opinions. Threads are being ruined by it and the "thanks" that follow. I'm on a warning so I'll take my own break.

    And, of course, no one else, in this discussion forum, does that!!:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1



    The subject wasn't properly discussed because after about a minute Pat Kenny wanted to get to his Get Smart Quiz. Anyway Ian O'Doherty didn't particularly strike me as really knowing what he was talking about.

    http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/34337/03rd_March_2017_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_3/

    In fairness that doesn't really surprise me hiven how poorly informed the talking heads are on any station.

    The most informed debate on the topic you'll most probably find here, no matter what side of the fence you're on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭markpb


    Using bus services to go out socialising, in any town or city centre, to pubs and clubs are also discretionary, but would you argue that they are less important passengers than anyone else who uses buses and trains for other reasons?
    You are ignoring that issue, that it has been shown, that older people, who are eligible for the free travel pass, contribute in other ways to the economy by spending money in the town centres and city centres, in which they avail of trains and buses.

    I not suggesting their trips or their move are less important, just less time sensitive. Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour, shopping doesn't have to be done first thing in the morning. They could wait a few minutes until the transport costs have fallen.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Indeed. The issue is, the current situation is that Bus Éireann is currently covering parts of rural Ireland,

    Even is the argument could be made that private coaches could run those same routes, what evidence is there that these private coaches would apply to run the routes that are currently only served by Bus Éireann?

    That is why I think the response by the NTA to questions posed by the various public representatives at the Joint Oireachtas meeting on 22nd February is important, with regard to the response by the NTA to that question - that no assurance could be given by the NTA, on the question of whether or not replacement services by other bus companies, would cover, the same routes and times, currently served by Bus Éireann.

    Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

    I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

    No assurances can be given that any commercial operator such as expressway or others will operate any commercial routes that any other commercial operator including expressway or others gives up. You paint it as public v private which is red herring.

    If commercial routes are withdrawn the national transport authority has track record of stepping in and ensuring adequate services are provided to meet demand and leftd nobody without service.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view. bus eireann is a key provider of public transport because it operates a hell of a lot of routes, the vast majority of which are PSO services, and they are the only operator on a number of them, maybe even a majority. so to suggest it would cause little inconvenience had there been a strike is laughable

    What way is the wind blowing today?

    Because over every single strike thread you say it won't cause any issues and people will get by and it will cause little difference but now you say it will? You change your view to suit every argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    You are ignoring that issue, that it has been shown, that older people, who are eligible for the free travel pass, contribute in other ways to the economy by spending money in the town centres and city centres, in which they avail of trains and buses.

    Do you regard the money spent in towns and cities by older people, of less value than other people?
    Are you for real?

    Charging a nominal fare on FTP journeys during peak time will not result in the OAP's disposable income suddenly being spent on Amazon or vanishing into thin air.

    They will just go into town an hour later when there's plenty of spare capacity in the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    markpb wrote: »
    I not suggesting their trips or their move are less important, just less time sensitive. Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour, shopping doesn't have to be done first thing in the morning. They could wait a few minutes until the transport costs have fallen.

    maybe their shopping does have to be done then. only they will know. not their job to wait around for some transport costs that exist anyway to fall. lets be honest, the real reason people want these restrictions is because they can't get a seat. unfortunately one actually isn't entitled to a seat on both the railway and i assume dublin bus services as well, they are simply entitled to travel.
    devnull wrote: »
    What way is the wind blowing today?

    Because over every single strike thread you say it won't cause any issues and people will get by and it will cause little difference but now you say it will? You change your view to suit every argument.

    still not getting that there is a difference between a strike and the company going to the wall and the length of time that replacements would take to sort out. sometimes people do have to take things on a case by case basis, which is what i do. don't like it, your problem.
    murphaph wrote: »
    Are you for real?

    Charging a nominal fare on FTP journeys during peak time will not result in the OAP's disposable income suddenly being spent on Amazon or vanishing into thin air.

    They will just go into town an hour later when there's plenty of spare capacity in the system.

    and then again they may not. not worth the risk of removing usership from services.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    devnull wrote: »
    Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet.

    I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative.

    No assurances can be given that any commercial operator such as expressway or others will operate any commercial routes that any other commercial operator including expressway or others gives up. You paint it as public v private which is red herring.

    If commercial routes are withdrawn the national transport authority has track record of stepping in and ensuring adequate services are provided to meet demand and leftd nobody without service.

    I am not painting it as public versus private. I am writing about the situation as it is now. Bus Éireann currently runs many routes not served by any other operator. I am questioning whether or not other companies would have any interest serving these routes. I asked this in relation to whether or not the intermediate towns would be served.

    I ask this in relation to the numerous posts in this forum which call for the complete ending of Bus Éireann, as a company.

    They are valid questions.

    All you have said, in response, is, wait and see what happens.

    Then, if what I am suggesting might happen, happens, and in a few months, I bring up this issue again, you will then say to me there's no point talking about it, there's nothing can be done about it.

    You are trying to suggest that private coaches, at the request of the NTA, would step in and serve the routes that are proposed to be cut, for example the Derry Dublin route.

    There is no certainty at all about that.

    Your use of the phrase "adequate services" is an indication that you acknowledge that it is very possible that towns currently served on long distance routes, will very possibly be served less frequently, if operated by other companies, with a distinct possibility that many intermediate towns will no longer be served, and that on long distance routes, the services to and from each starting point, might very well be less frequent.

    I mentioned the Derry Dublin route, with reference to the recent RTE news report where Ingrid Miley vox popped customers on the Collins Coaches service to Carrickmacross, where it was suggested that companies like Collins may have an opportunity to apply to take on the Derry Dublin route.

    If other companies are not getting the same financial support, it stands to reason that any Bus Éireann services that might be replaced by other companies, will be different, less frequent, and very likely intermediate towns not served.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    markpb wrote: »
    I not suggesting their trips or their move are less important, just less time sensitive. Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour, shopping doesn't have to be done first thing in the morning. They could wait a few minutes until the transport costs have fallen.

    Patronising, ignorant comment, insinuating that older people have nothing better to be doing with their time than shopping and going in to St Stephen's Green to feed the ducks.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I am not painting it as public versus private. I am writing about the situation as it is now. Bus Éireann currently runs many routes not served by any other operator. I am questioning whether or not other companies would have any interest serving these routes. I asked this in relation to whether or not the intermediate towns would be served.

    I ask this in relation to the numerous posts in this forum which call for the complete ending of Bus Éireann, as a company.

    They are valid questions.

    All you have said, in response, is, wait and see what happens.

    Then, if what I am suggesting might happen, happens, and in a few months, I bring up this issue again, you will then say to me there's no point talking about it, there's nothing can be done about it.

    You are trying to suggest that private coaches, at the request of the NTA, would step in and serve the routes that are proposed to be cut, for example the Derry Dublin route.

    Your use of the phrase "adequate services" is an indication that you acknowledge that it is very possible that towns currently served on long distance routes, will very possibly be less frequent, if operated by other companies, with a distinct possibility that many intermediate towns will no longer be served.

    I mentioned the Derry Dublin route, with reference to the recent RTE news report where Ingrid Miley vox popped customers on the Collins Coaches service to Carrickmacross, where it was suggested that companies like Collins may have an opportunity to apply to take on the Derry Dublin route.

    If other companies are not getting the same financial support, it stands to reason that any Bus Éireann services that might be replaced by other companies, will be different, less frequent, and very likely intermediate towns not served.

    Where operators have took services out of towns they have had replacement services added to them to ensure that they are not cut off. This is a fact. I'm not interested in what you think will or may not happen in your world.. What you heard on TV or read somewhere I am interested in reality and deal in facts not hyperbole.

    As for saying it's not about public and private you are the one who keeps dividing them between bus eireann and the rest. I mention them altogether because I have no agenda or vested interest. I just Base my posts on facts not idly speculate about what may happen in future.

    As for how frequent services are it depends on demand from the towns really. If for example three towns have ten services a day on a route and carry 25 passengers to and from them combined then when an intercity route drops them a replacement route linking the stops to intercity connections should not still be ten times a day.


This discussion has been closed.
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