end of the road wrote: » they have to travel when they have to travel. if they didn't need to travel they wouldn't be traveling.
the peak time restrictions were abolished because they brought nothing to the table.
end of the road wrote: » sadly incorrect. if more money is spent on busses it is money that has been budgeted to spend on busses. if for whatever reason it isn't spent on busses then it doesn't get spent. a countries budget doesn't operate along the lines of how one would operate a household or company budget unfortunately
jackofalltrades wrote: » To suggest that everyone making a trip using a FTP can't do it at another time is laughable. They were abolished as part a vote buying exercise by Fianna Fail. I've seen an elderly mane having the middle doors closed on him on a bus once. It's unsafe for people like that and is a waste of limited capacity.
jackofalltrades wrote: » To suggest that everyone making a trip using a FTP can't do it at another time is laughable.
jackofalltrades wrote: » They were abolished as part a vote buying exercise by Fianna Fail.
jackofalltrades wrote: » I've seen an elderly mane having the middle doors closed on him on a bus once. It's unsafe for people like that and is a waste of limited capacity.
end of the road wrote: » not their job to not travel to suit you. sorry about that.
they were abolished because they brought nothing to the table.
yeah. yeah. that's not a reason to bring back something that was removed because it brought nothing to the table. capacity is irrelevant as an argument. you aren't entitled to a seat, you are only entitled to travel.
markpb wrote: » The cost of transporting someone at peak times is more than the cost of transporting them earlier or later. Transport operators around the world try to encourage people to travel off peak for that reason. If someone is gifted free transport by the state, wouldn't it make sense for them to be encouraged to travel at a time when it's cheaper for the state? If someone is going shopping or feeding the ducks, those trips are definitely discretionary. I'm sorry, what!? This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a very long time! Do you think that allocating money on buses but not buying them magically makes extra capacity?
end of the road wrote: » sadly incorrect. if more money is spent on busses it is money that has been budgeted to spend on busses. if for whatever reason it isn't spent on busses then it doesn't get spent. a countries budget doesn't operate along the lines of how one would operate a household or company budget unfortunately.
ED E wrote: » Expecting sense from him is asking too much.
Last Stop wrote: » I would advocate a €10 "registration fee" for the free travel pass. I mean there is 1.2 million people using it FFS. I am also acutely aware that any changes to the free travel pass would ironically see all those entitled to it making us of it to protest outside the Dáil :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Cookie_Monster wrote: » yeah, but we're actually having a discussion on the options available to resolve the issued faced... Stop trying to shut the discussion down.
Cookie_Monster wrote: » Buses and trains are packed to the rafters at rush hour, allowing a significant additional number of journeys at this time to be made for free was/is just irresponsible vote buying. Can you provide details of the FF proposal that showed there'd be no additional issues caused by it?.
Cookie_Monster wrote: » how is capacity irrelevant?, is the constraining factor and extremely expensive to provide more, especially when there are vastly cheaper options available to better use the existing capacity.
murphaph wrote: » A registration fee would unfortunately do nothing to discourage frivolous use (eg OAPs going shopping during 8am rush rather than waiting until 10am) and I dare say very few people would be discouraged from applying for completely free transport for a one off €10 fee. The only way to combat frivolous use of the FTP is to charge a nominal fare for each journey, perhaps only peak hour journeys. Leap will enable this quite easily. This would just bring Ireland into line with other socialist countries like Germany!
Bus row offers a chance to tackle transport realities Taxpayers remain on the hook for a system of public transport provision that is crying out for fundamental reform, writes Colm McCarthy While the suspension of strike notice at Bus Eireann and the resumption of talks between unions and management may result in some form of interim settlement, the underlying problems at the company, and more broadly in the CIE bus and rail business, are not being addressed. Demand for intercity public transport is in decline and the costs of meeting this demand through the CIE model are excessive. The minister has wisely kept away from the talks, keeping the taxpayers' chequebook out of danger for now. But the taxpayer remains on the hook for a system of public transport provision crying out for fundamental reform. Breathless reportage to the effect that 110,000 commuters (the daily average number of Bus Eireann return journeys) faced 'chaos', the term employed repeatedly on RTE broadcasts, had tomorrow's strike gone ahead is a considerable exaggeration. Many Bus Eireann users can take a bus provided by private operators, take a train or cadge a lift. Indeed, just last week the National Transport Authority shrugged off the management's discontinuation of some Expressway services with the observation that alternative bus and rail services are already adequate, raising the rather obvious question of the need for a State bus company at all. In 2014, the Central Statistics Office surveyed more than 10,000 households about their travel habits. They found that only 4.4pc of trips made by Irish adults use the bus. This percentage includes private bus companies and Dublin Bus. The portion of adults relying on Bus Eireann, which provides intercity, rural and provincial city services, must be well under 2pc of the total - the private companies are popular on many routes and Dublin Bus serves more daily journeys than all of Bus Eireann's operations put together. The all-out strike still looming at Bus Eireann follows the (arguably illegal) industrial action threatened by members of An Garda Siochana late last year. On that occasion, the Government effectively capitulated by permitting the Labour Court to make an award which has already had knock-on consequences for the public pay bill. There is a difference though: An Garda Siochana is a monopoly, as are the schools and hospital systems where strikes are also possible due to the undermining of the Lansdowne Road Agreement. Bus Eireann is just one among many actual and potential providers of public passenger transport. The National Transport Authority's conclusions on management proposals to cut or scrap some Expressway routes are revealing. The Authority is responsible for the allocation of licences to bus operators and the distribution of state cash to Bus Eireann for routes deemed to be non-commercial. All of Bus Eireann's Expressway routes are meant to be unsubsidised and most of them have competitors. The company's management announced its intention to scrap three routes and to cut frequency on two more, Limerick to Dublin and Galway to Dublin. These are two of the busiest intercity routes in the country, are served by regular rail services which enjoy enormous subsidies and there are private operators offering frequent scheduled bus services on both routes. For example, on Dublin-Limerick, between Expressway and its main private competitor, weekly combined frequency will be 218 services, down from 242 before the announced Expressway cuts, plus frequent train departures. Not surprisingly, the authority proposed no response to the frequency reduction by Expressway and took the same view, for the same reason, in the case of Dublin-Galway. Bus Eireann management also announced the complete withdrawal of service on Clonmel-Dublin and Derry-Dublin. In both cases, the authority deemed the existing alternative services to be adequate. In just one of five routes identified for service reduction or withdrawal, Westport to Athlone, did the authority choose to offer increased subsidy, thus activating the aforementioned taxpayers' chequebook. Back in the 1990s, when the Irish government finally got around to the construction of a proper national road network, it was obvious, and was widely noted, that there would be consequences for intercity transport. Unsubsidised air services between Dublin and Cork have disappeared, a consequence of the disappearance of the tailbacks in Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Abbeyleix and elsewhere. The delights of an unexpected half-hour in Mountrath have similarly been denied travellers from Limerick to Dublin, resulting in the demise of air links between Dublin and Shannon. There were subsidised air connections at one time between Dublin and the cities of Galway, Sligo and Waterford, now a stress-free two-hour car trip. But the response of government to the inevitable increased popularity of car and bus travel was to spend hundreds of millions on rail improvements, resulting in extra capacity and further pressure on Expressway. The weakness of the trade union position is precisely that a Bus Eireann strike can cause only limited 'chaos', because Bus Eireann is no longer a key provider of passenger transport in Ireland. Some travellers would indeed be inconvenienced but the only strength in the trade union case is that Bus Eireann is State-owned and trade unions in State-companies enjoy unusual privileges in Ireland. Minister Shane Ross is reluctant to 'settle' the dispute, occasioned by a pay claim against a company facing insolvency, with taxpayer cash. This is unsporting of the minister and he has been roundly denounced for inactivity. Solutions were offered in the Dail last week by both the Labour Party and Sinn Fein. Labour suggested that the bus sector should be covered by a binding overall pay-and-conditions deal, imposing the excess payroll costs of Bus Eireann on its competitors. Sinn Fein suggested that the licences (already restrictive) available to private bus companies should be further curtailed. Either 'solution' would screw bus customers, taxpayers, or both. Nobody in the Dail had the imagination to suggest the closure of the motorways, which would surely push people back on to public transport. The elephant in the public transport room is actually Irish Rail, not Bus Eireann or Dublin Bus. Both of the bus companies are unable to cover their capital and operating costs from customer revenue and there are sizeable subsidies. A case can, of course, be made for subsidies for public transport, but it is weak, and contrary to EU directives, in intercity transport where private operators are willing to offer unsubsidised service. But the subsidy cost of CIE bus operations, which carry far more passengers, is dwarfed by the annual subvention to Irish Rail. Between capital and operating subvention, the railway company received over €300m in 2015, more than the entire revenue of Bus Eireann. In order to deflect the accusations of inactivity, the minister should consider three initiatives while the management-union negotiations proceed. He should prepare and publish a factual comparison of pay and productivity in Bus Eireann and in the unsubsidised private bus sector. He should make it clear that licence restrictions on the scheduling and capacity of the private bus companies will be suspended if there is a renewed threat of strike action against Bus Eireann. There is no need for army lorries this time round. Finally he should clarify that Bus Eireann will face no penalties for non-performance of contracted services occasioned by a trade union dispute. The Bus Eireann row is an opportunity to come to terms with the new realities in Irish public transport. Sunday Independent
end of the road wrote: » mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view.
salonfire wrote: » Bus Eireann are not critical to transportation infrastructure. Take rural Donegal as an example, it is only private companies that connect Letterkenny to West Donegal and Inishowen. Bus Eireann are not needed and nobody is asking for them.
end of the road wrote: » mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view. bus eireann is a key provider of public transport because it operates a hell of a lot of routes, the vast majority of which are PSO services, and they are the only operator on a number of them, maybe even a majority. so to suggest it would cause little inconvenience had there been a strike is laughable. secondly, it isn't the job of the minister or anyone else to suspend anything in relation to bus licences. the bus licences are the bus licences and the terms of those licences are the terms of the licences. he also fails to realise bus eireann don't receive penalties should strike action have happened, they simply wouldn't have been paid for operating services for the day or days they wouldn't have operated, as, well, they didn't operate services. he had to get another rant in against the railway of course.
end of the road wrote: » they are critical to quite a large amount of the country. they are needed by those who rely on them. by all means don't like it but we have to deal with reality and not wishful thinking.
Grandeeod wrote: » Absolutely! I can't believe your post remained. I'm out for now. I can't be bothered reading his crap anymore, while he blatantly ignores valid questions in order to suit his opinions. Threads are being ruined by it and the "thanks" that follow. I'm on a warning so I'll take my own break.
horseburger wrote: » The subject wasn't properly discussed because after about a minute Pat Kenny wanted to get to his Get Smart Quiz. Anyway Ian O'Doherty didn't particularly strike me as really knowing what he was talking about.http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/34337/03rd_March_2017_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_3/
horseburger wrote: Using bus services to go out socialising, in any town or city centre, to pubs and clubs are also discretionary, but would you argue that they are less important passengers than anyone else who uses buses and trains for other reasons?
horseburger wrote: You are ignoring that issue, that it has been shown, that older people, who are eligible for the free travel pass, contribute in other ways to the economy by spending money in the town centres and city centres, in which they avail of trains and buses.
horseburger wrote: » Indeed. The issue is, the current situation is that Bus Éireann is currently covering parts of rural Ireland, Even is the argument could be made that private coaches could run those same routes, what evidence is there that these private coaches would apply to run the routes that are currently only served by Bus Éireann? That is why I think the response by the NTA to questions posed by the various public representatives at the Joint Oireachtas meeting on 22nd February is important, with regard to the response by the NTA to that question - that no assurance could be given by the NTA, on the question of whether or not replacement services by other bus companies, would cover, the same routes and times, currently served by Bus Éireann.
end of the road wrote: » mostly waffle as far as i'm concerned but not expected from him in my view. bus eireann is a key provider of public transport because it operates a hell of a lot of routes, the vast majority of which are PSO services, and they are the only operator on a number of them, maybe even a majority. so to suggest it would cause little inconvenience had there been a strike is laughable
horseburger wrote: » You are ignoring that issue, that it has been shown, that older people, who are eligible for the free travel pass, contribute in other ways to the economy by spending money in the town centres and city centres, in which they avail of trains and buses. Do you regard the money spent in towns and cities by older people, of less value than other people?
markpb wrote: » I not suggesting their trips or their move are less important, just less time sensitive. Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour, shopping doesn't have to be done first thing in the morning. They could wait a few minutes until the transport costs have fallen.
devnull wrote: » What way is the wind blowing today? Because over every single strike thread you say it won't cause any issues and people will get by and it will cause little difference but now you say it will? You change your view to suit every argument.
murphaph wrote: » Are you for real? Charging a nominal fare on FTP journeys during peak time will not result in the OAP's disposable income suddenly being spent on Amazon or vanishing into thin air. They will just go into town an hour later when there's plenty of spare capacity in the system.
devnull wrote: » Bus Eireann serves rural routes and routes that are not commercially viable is it is paid to do so. It is given free vehicles to do so and the taxpayer spent almost 100 million euro on it last year. Private operators don't as they don't get free vehicles and are not funded to do so as of yet. I know you are trying to make out that in a romantic way that Bus E is some kind of God who does it out of the kindness of their hearts and are portraying rural Ireland as a victim but it's a false narrative. No assurances can be given that any commercial operator such as expressway or others will operate any commercial routes that any other commercial operator including expressway or others gives up. You paint it as public v private which is red herring. If commercial routes are withdrawn the national transport authority has track record of stepping in and ensuring adequate services are provided to meet demand and leftd nobody without service.
horseburger wrote: » I am not painting it as public versus private. I am writing about the situation as it is now. Bus Éireann currently runs many routes not served by any other operator. I am questioning whether or not other companies would have any interest serving these routes. I asked this in relation to whether or not the intermediate towns would be served. I ask this in relation to the numerous posts in this forum which call for the complete ending of Bus Éireann, as a company. They are valid questions. All you have said, in response, is, wait and see what happens. Then, if what I am suggesting might happen, happens, and in a few months, I bring up this issue again, you will then say to me there's no point talking about it, there's nothing can be done about it. You are trying to suggest that private coaches, at the request of the NTA, would step in and serve the routes that are proposed to be cut, for example the Derry Dublin route. Your use of the phrase "adequate services" is an indication that you acknowledge that it is very possible that towns currently served on long distance routes, will very possibly be less frequent, if operated by other companies, with a distinct possibility that many intermediate towns will no longer be served. I mentioned the Derry Dublin route, with reference to the recent RTE news report where Ingrid Miley vox popped customers on the Collins Coaches service to Carrickmacross, where it was suggested that companies like Collins may have an opportunity to apply to take on the Derry Dublin route. If other companies are not getting the same financial support, it stands to reason that any Bus Éireann services that might be replaced by other companies, will be different, less frequent, and very likely intermediate towns not served.
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