Bust Éireann

CIARAN_BOYLE

Is there a reason that there is so much overtime in bus eireann. If drivers are being paid time and a half for overtime why the hell are the management accepting the widespread overtime at present. Can they not recruit additional drivers.

n97 mini

I don't get this "one company" line.

Guinness workers are unionised. So should all other beers be blocked from the market and we should only allow Guinness access to the market?

emroid

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is there a reason that there is so much overtime in bus eireann. If drivers are being paid time and a half for overtime why the hell are the management accepting the widespread overtime at present. Can they not recruit additional drivers.

Simple terms.
Journey from A to B takes 4.5 hours. So there and back is 9 hours work.
Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

Journey from A to B takes 1.5 hours. Driver does this twice before the break for 6 hours and once after the break for 3 hours for a total of 9 hour work. Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

Bass Reeves

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is there a reason that there is so much overtime in bus eireann. If drivers are being paid time and a half for overtime why the hell are the management accepting the widespread overtime at present. Can they not recruit additional drivers.

BE have stated that at present drivers only drive 4.5 per day on average but are paid for 9.6 (inclusive of 1.6 hours OT). BE do not need to recruit new drivers if work/shift's was properly configured they would need 300 less drivers and no OT. Management is hamstrung by T&C of workplace. The union's as we have seen will not contenance any changes they wish for a good fairy with a cheque book. This was the traditional way of fixing CiE problems

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't get this "one company" line.

Guinness workers are unionised. So should all other beers be blocked from the market and we should only allow Guinness access to the market?

it means 1 management structure, commonality of everything, ease of movement of capacity from route to route, and only 1 company for the regulator to watch over. alcohol is irrelevant and means nothing, it cannot be compared to socially necessary bus services.

emroid

Bass Reeves wrote: »

BE do not need to recruit new drivers if work/shift's was properly configured they would need 300 less drivers and no OT.

Thats where you would be wrong kiddo.
Example 1 spare driver based in Broadstone.
Tomorrow because of a shortage of drivers in Athlone the Broadstone driver is assigned to work out of the Athlone depot.
This driver would then be paid OT for the time to travel to Athlone.

This is a example of OT some here are bitching about.

n97 mini

Don't know about alcohol not being socially necessary!

We had one airline 30 years ago, which made things simple. But was it better for everyone?

Bass Reeves

emroid wrote: »

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is there a reason that there is so much overtime in bus eireann. If drivers are being paid time and a half for overtime why the hell are the management accepting the widespread overtime at present. Can they not recruit additional drivers.

Simple terms.
Journey from A to B takes 4.5 hours. So there and back is 9 hours work.
Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

Journey from A to B takes 1.5 hours. Driver does this twice before the break for 6 hours and once after the break for 3 hours for a total of 9 hour work. Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

Not quite that simple. There are probably (I am not aware of exact time) different shift starts 6am, 8am 10 am etc. If you bus timetable starts at before 7am you more than likely have 1 hour prep time(to collect and check the bus) so you may get up to an hour's OT here, if you bus starts after 7am you are paid from start of shift at 6am. This would be carried across all start times. Because of sick leave etc they have to schedule extra drivers to shifts who may not have to work that day or may only work part of the day.

If no relief driver available another driver may be bought in to cover shift. Because drivers are only working partial days(on average 4.5 hours/ shift) they can work OT as long as they have regulatory breaks. In most bus companies you shifts are scheduled by starting times of buses timetable wit maybe 15-30 minutes grace with hot switchover a by drivers.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

it means 1 management structure, commonality of everything, ease of movement of capacity from route to route, and only 1 company for the regulator to watch over. alcohol is irrelevant and means nothing, it cannot be compared to socially necessary bus services.

Yep, and what it meant was a single company that coasted along and didn't pay attention to the customer's needs. It has taken introduction of competition for CIE companies to change the way they operate.

The Trabant company in Eastern Europe produced the same model of car for 30 years because they were a public monopoly, and the customer had no choice but to (apply) for one. When the Berlin Wall fell, the company quickly went out of business.

The day of the public sector monopoly is drawing to a close thankfully, good idea on paper, terrible idea in practice. It has been replaced by a regulator who monitors service levels and ensures they are in the public interest, but who is agnostic as to who delivers the service.

Wanderer78

n97 mini wrote: »

Don't know about alcohol not being socially necessary!

We had one airline 30 years ago, which made things simple. But was it better for everyone?

our current choices for flight options certainly is better for customers but not necessarily better for workers, a very common problem in our neoliberal designed economic system

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

it means 1 management structure, commonality of everything, ease of movement of capacity from route to route, and only 1 company for the regulator to watch over. alcohol is irrelevant and means nothing, it cannot be compared to socially necessary bus services.

Still no reason for a one company policy. Pointless having g a regulator if a one company policy. Monopoly's are shown to be Inefficient in lots of sectors. A transport sector is of the upmost importance and socially necessary, We can see from the carry on of transport unions in sheltered sectors why competition is vital. Commercial operators developed the intercity routes when a monopoly provider said they were not required. All above is ideallogical rubbish with incorrect analysis

n97 mini

Wanderer78 wrote: »

our current choices for flight options certainly is better for customers but not necessarily better for workers, a very common problem in our neoliberal designed economic system

Why should it be better for workers? Customers outnumber workers 1000 to 1. The greater good?

salonfire

Wanderer78 wrote: »

our current choices for flight options certainly is better for customers but not necessarily better for workers, a very common problem in our neoliberal designed economic system

How dare you begrudge all those people their jobs created by the rapid and successful growth of Ryanair.

All in the name of arguing against the free competition.

How very dare you.

Wanderer78

n97 mini wrote: »

Why should it be better for workers? Customers outnumber workers 1000 to 1. The greater good?

so theres more customers on the planet than workers? i suspect most customers are actually workers i do beleive its possible to have good conditions for both customers and workers, what we currently have is most certainly not good for workers, things such as neoliberalism/globalisation/neoclassical theory/free market economics etc etc, i.e. whatever you wanna call it, is a bust. be aware you need to think in a more macro way to realise these issues. for the greater good, we must create new economic systems, not what we currently have

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't get this "one company" line.

Guinness workers are unionised. So should all other beers be blocked from the market and we should only allow Guinness access to the market?

That place is very very heavily unionised, I could tell you many a tale about there, having worked in that company in the past, some of the stuff you would not believe and there are admin workers earning more than in BE.

emroid wrote: »

Simple terms.
Journey from A to B takes 4.5 hours. So there and back is 9 hours work.
Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

Journey from A to B takes 1.5 hours. Driver does this twice before the break for 6 hours and once after the break for 3 hours for a total of 9 hour work. Driver gets 8 hours pay at normal rate and 1 hour at overtime rate.

I realise what you are saying, but it's still bad rotas and it can be improved so there is better staff utlitisation and less overtime, because the company are saying they want to bring in better rotas to do that, they wouldn't say they can do it or say it will save money if it's impossible because it wouldn't make sense.

emroid wrote: »

Thats where you would be wrong kiddo.
Example 1 spare driver based in Broadstone.
Tomorrow because of a shortage of drivers in Athlone the Broadstone driver is assigned to work out of the Athlone depot.
This driver would then be paid OT for the time to travel to Athlone.

If there were better rosters with better use of staff, there would be more drivers free to avoid this kind of thing.

murphaph

GM228 wrote: »

Problem is under the terms of the PSO contract failure to deliver the service can't invalidate the contract. A very stupid term of contract.




The only time the contract can be ended early is if BE cease to exist.

Sorry I thought I made myself clear but obviously not. I suggest swallowing the bitter pill, getting out the cheque book out until 2020 and in the meantime have every route tendered out and ready to start operation by the tender winners in January 2020. Then cease all subsidy to Bus Eireann. The drivers can go on the dole or take jobs in the real world on realistic wages.

Wanderer78

salonfire wrote: »

How dare you begrudge all those people their jobs created by the rapid and successful growth of Ryanair.

All in the name of arguing against the free competition.

How very dare you.

DONT read this website, it ll upset you!

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

enjoy!

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

The day of the public sector monopoly is drawing to a close thankfully, good idea on paper, terrible idea in practice. It has been replaced by a regulator who monitors service levels and ensures they are in the public interest, but who is agnostic as to who delivers the service.

nope, the socially necessary public non-monopoly but socially necessary service is going nowhere. great idea on paper, great idea all round. it can be improved and it will be. a regulator isn't a replacement for socially necessary social services, it is simply there to insure services live up to their responsibilities.

n97 mini wrote: »

Why should it be better for workers? Customers outnumber workers 1000 to 1. The greater good?

it being better for workers means a happier work force, better wages and more tax take.

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry I thought I made myself clear but obviously not. I suggest swallowing the bitter pill, getting out the cheque book out until 2020 and in the meantime have every route tendered out and ready to start operation by the tender winners in January 2020. Then cease all subsidy to Bus Eireann. The drivers can go on the dole or take jobs in the real world on realistic wages.

the drivers all ready have a job in the real world on realistic wages. it is the allowences which bump up pay a bit, which are being withdrawn or hugely cut. bus eireann must remain for the greater good of the communities it serves. even if routes are tendered bus eireann must remain for the greater good, so that they can jump into the field should an issue arise.

n97 mini

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so theres more customers on the planet than workers? i suspect most customers are actually workers i do beleive its possible to have good conditions for both customers and workers, what we currently have is most certainly not good for workers, things such as neoliberalism/globalisation/neoclassical theory/free market economics etc etc, i.e. whatever you wanna call it, is a bust. be aware you need to think in a more macro way to realise these issues. for the greater good, we must create new economic systems, not what we currently have

You know what I mean, stop twisting.

For every neoliberal there's a commie who still believes they way forward is backwards.

emroid

devnull wrote: »

I realise what you are saying, but it's still bad rotas and it can be improved so there is better staff utlitisation and less overtime, because the company are saying they want to bring in better rotas to do that, they wouldn't say they can do it or say it will save money if it's impossible because it wouldn't make sense.



If there were better rosters with better use of staff, there would be more drivers free to avoid this kind of thing.

Please explain this.
If a journey take 4.5 hours to do how can new rotas change this?

n97 mini

The left wing posters on here have only spoken about drivers. What are your thoughts on the BE admin side?

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

a regulator isn't a replacement for socially necessary social services

Well. Actually it is, and it has been proven to be because of the success to date.

it being better for workers means a happier work force, better wages and more tax take.

2 out of those 3. Missing are a happier customer who has voted with their feet when competition has been introduced (Ryanair, private buses etc.). Name one "public service" operator who has thrived in open competition?

even if routes are tendered bus eireann must remain for the greater good, so that they can jump into the field should an issue arise.

I think out of the hundreds of private buses we can find one or two if needed. We don't need BE.

n97 mini

emroid wrote: »

Please explain this.
If a journey take 4.5 hours to do how can new rotas change this?

Can BE drivers not hot swap? 2.25 hours into the journey the bus meets the bus coming the other way. Drivers swap. 4.5 hours after leaving the depot they're back. Break time. Head off on another shorter route, maybe even got swap again, back in the depot before overtime kicks in.

There is software that can work these kind of shifts out, but correct me if I'm mistaken, drivers are doing overtime because they want to, and are not willing to facilitate better routing that would eliminate that.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

The left wing posters on here have only spoken about drivers. What are your thoughts on the BE admin side?

it's not just left wing posters defending drivers and other staff, centrists like me are as well and we are prowd to do so. i have sympathy and will show solidarity toards all staff working in the company during these trying times and hope they can get through, what must be an aweful worrying and trying time for them and their families.

hmmm wrote: »

Well. Actually it is, and it has been proven to be because of the success to date.

it isn't a replacement no . it's an insurer of services upholding their responsibilities. it's supposed success is really only on small things so far so we can't really judge anything.

hmmm wrote: »

I think out of the hundreds of private buses we can find one or two if needed. We don't need BE.

no we need be to be able to step in to the fold as they could do it straight away. we need be very much and any attempt to remove them must be faught for the greater good of the communities who rely on their vital services.

murphaph

Wanderer78 wrote: »

our current choices for flight options certainly is better for customers but not necessarily better for workers, a very common problem in our neoliberal designed economic system

Customers are workers! 30 years ago ordinary working people could hardly afford a flight to London.

Grandeeod

Its all about the GREATER GOOD lads!:D Remember that. The GREATER GOOD.

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

it's not just left wing posters defending drivers and other staff, centrists like me are as well and we are prowd to do so. i have sympathy and will show solidarity toards all staff working in the company during these trying times and hope they can get through, what must be an aweful worrying and trying time for them and their families.

You're centrist? Hahaha!

Anyway, admin staff. Too many, overpaid, top heavy, according to the report. What should BE do?

murphaph

end of the road wrote: »

nope, the socially necessary public non-monopoly but socially necessary service is going nowhere. great idea on paper, great idea all round. it can be improved and it will be. a regulator isn't a replacement for socially necessary social services, it is simply there to insure services live up to their responsibilities.



it being better for workers means a happier work force, better wages and more tax take.




the drivers all ready have a job in the real world on realistic wages. it is the allowences which bump up pay a bit, which are being withdrawn or hugely cut. bus eireann must remain for the greater good of the communities it serves. even if routes are tendered bus eireann must remain for the greater good, so that they can jump into the field should an issue arise.

What a load of waffle. Bus Eireann don't need to remain. The routes can be just as well if not better operated by privates.

You'd make any excuse to justify donating tax payers money to very well paid semi state employees.

As said to you countless times, private operating of tendered out routes with minimum service levels are quite common and quite successful beyond the UK. You dislike this model purely because the wages are lower. No other reason.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i do. i did sort of support their action as i thought at the time that it wasn't just the parent that would go had the minister got his way. and again this really is for another thread.

No its not for another thread. Its for this thread because your beloved unions were accutely involved in it. You have already admitted that the CIE parent should go. I asked you a question about it. Your response is now full of "sort of" and "I thought". Seamus Brennan merely proposed that the CIE holding company should go. No more and no less. The Unions reacted with the usual fury. You are so blinded by something, be it a socialist view or something more, that you cannot even see that the smallest changes to the CIE group are reacted to by the unions. It is beyond wages and terms. Its about a legacy that also protects the unions. But you will respond with the same oul guff about workers rights, rather than exploring the bigger and more sinister picture.

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

it's not just left wing posters defending drivers and other staff, centrists like me are as well and we are prowd to do so. i have sympathy and will show solidarity toards all staff working in the company during these trying times .

Who do you think you are kidding ,my friend.

You are across every dispute thread here, batting for the strikers.

Who do you think you are kidding .

I might have had some respect for you if you pumped out an agenda, but to think you can put yourself out as a centerist !!!


Take a running jump, my friend.

You need to stop taking people for idiots.