Bust Éireann

horseburger

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Thank God for threads like this.
If I was relying on RTE to try and make sense of this all I'd still be confused.

Is there any way that the Government could fold and give in to the Unions, that wouldn't break competition rules?

Totally agree. The thread is wonderful, except for a few people who can't read!:)

Patser

Strike off

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-éireann-strike-planned-for-monday-is-deferred-1.2996544

More talks.

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

What has been demonstrated clearly in recent weeks and months is:
*BE is not breaking even and losing money on many of its commercial operations. This is fatal for the company since it is compensated for its non profitable routes.
*To continue to operate routes at a loss or depend on more subsidies to compete at an uncompetitive level is unsustainable. Paying drivers overtime(time and a half?) to effectively drive empty or half empty busses makes no economic sense. Better to leave these routes to the private sector.
*The unions are more concerned about their own welfare than rural Ireland. Their supposed concern for rural Ireland is a red herring. The union and its members always comes first in these circumstances.
*The company is a basketcase due to management and unions. Better to let it go to the wall and/or privatise it. A replacement company can compete fairly with competitive costs including labour costs. Existing drivers can apply to join this company but with massive wage reductions. Unions needs to be banned, otherwise we will be back to square one in a few years.

not better to leave routes that are viable to the private sector, bus eireann and privates must compete on expressway where viable to do so. bus eireann isn't a basket case. not better to let it go to the wall and or privatize it as there would be no services for god knows how long until replacements could be sorted out, and privatization would cost to much. a replacement company would have nothing to compete for as there is nothing to compete for in terms of the PSO routes. "competitive" labour costs as in the low labour costs you would like that aren't even being paid by the privates as it is will not be allowed by the unions thankfully. to bann unions would be against workers rights and us union members will do what is necessary to stamp out any attempt to bann something we are entitled to join and have. workers rights and those who enforce them will prevail.

Mebuntu wrote: »

Workers also have responsibilities. In this case to drive Dublin buses and countrywide trains. That is what they are paid to do. When they arrive at dual depots and see "strike on here" placards carried by employees of another company they have no right whatsoever to refuse to turn up for work. Of course, everybody knows it is the wish of the BE unions to upset as many thousands of other public transport users as they can in any way they can to further their "cause".

they have a right not to be forced into crossing a picket.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think a lot could be learned from how Reagan dealt with a strike to critical public infrastructure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)

nothing can be learned as this is a failed argument. in fact it's a non argument. the air traffic controlers had long been banned from striking hence their strike was illegal. behind the sceenes the system suffered for years after the man who only used his union for his own ends and then sold them out, sacked the air traffic controlers for wanting a better deal.

hmmm

The union must be doing massive damage to BE with all these threatened strikes - users of BE will have spent the past month looking for alternative services. Bringing down your own company is an unusual strategy, we'll have to see how it plays out.

Idbatterim

not better to leave routes that are viable to the private sector, bus eireann and privates must compete on expressway where viable to do so. bus eireann isn't a basket case. not better to let it go to the wall and or privatize it as there would be no services for god knows how long until replacements could be sorted out, and privatization would cost to much.

Who says it has to be shut down immediately? give it several months to put everything in place...

Peppa Pig

SIPTU wrote:

“SIPTU representatives will continue to play their part in trying to avert a national public transport dispute but we rely on the management of Bus Éireann making genuine efforts to reach a resolution.”

quite a reasonable statement,

compared to

NBRU wrote:

However, the attitude displayed by Bus Éireann management to-date has left us with no option but to advise our members that they should remain on a war-footing and be prepared to engage in an immediate all-out strike.

Are they planning to bomb BE headquarters and assassinate Shane Ross?

The Journal

Shurimgreat

I don't see that much difference of opinion between the unions. All of them want BE management to compromise and back down first. And they themselves don't want to compromise on the likes of pay and overtime for their own members.

murphaph

end of the road wrote: »

they have a right not to be forced into crossing a picket

Go on out of that. If Penneys staff in Liffey Valley picket outside the shopping centre main doors then Dunnes or M&S staff will be walking right past them to go to work. It's a different employer.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

they have a right not to be forced into crossing a picket.

Rights are legal entitlements, there is no such right. You have a choice, not a "right", and the result of your choice could be getting dismissed for breaking the T&Cs of your employment.

Even those who are legitimately on strike and picketing can be sacked.

WomanSkirtFan8

GM228 wrote: »

Rights are legal entitlements, there is no such right. You have a choice, not a "right", and the result of your choice could be getting dismissed for breaking the T&Cs of your employment.

Exactly. This whole sorry saga could and possibly may eventually end up being decided on a legal basis and not on the picket line as strikes are extremely seldomly resolved this way. :cool:

hmmm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I don't see that much difference of opinion between the unions. All of them want BE management to compromise and back down first.

The odd thing here is that management can't compromise. The company is losing money. Management cannot magic up more money out of the sky.

The unions are really trying to negotiate with the Minister, and force him to provide more money or roll-back competition - neither of which are likely, and the public have voted with their feet.

Unless the union are going to implement the proposed cuts, these talks are doomed to failure.

Idbatterim

Who says it has to be shut down immediately? give it several months to put everything in place...

Im going to quote myself because I want to elaborate on this point! The tax payer has been taken for a ride here for long enough, whats another few months? The problem in this country is just kicking the can down the road every few years, then back to square one. Anyone who has any interest or knowledge on transport here, knows that the case. Third world infrastructure with world class salaries! Transport is one critical area that in my opinion is now worth tackling head on and privatising... For the good of everyone except BE staff!

I wouldnt let them off the hook now, I would take this opportunity to kill of this CIE entitlement, doing as little as they can get away with for outrageous money, taking advantage of weak politicians and by extension us! Please rid us of this CIE cancer!

Unless the union are going to implement the proposed cuts, these talks are doomed to failure.

Its a major opportunity in my opinion, with Ross not beholden to anyone and FG the senior party in government, the stars will probably never align any better to sort out this disgrace once and for all!

Thank god for europe forcing some responsibility on us here too!

Bass Reeves

that is not something to bank on, it cannot be guaranteeed.[/quote]

Ross is on safe ground here. His biggest threat is not from FG but from the fellow independent that are supportive government. But not sure if any of them will pull the plug on this. The most telling intervention today and it was not about this dispute was by Alan Kelly regarding water charges. I only got a bit of his contribution. He seems to have pulled the rug from under FF. His assertion that Ireland may well be fined over removing water charges leaves FF with a hostage to fortune. FG are sticking to there guns about the AG's opinion. That leaves the legal position thrown over to the Dail's legal section.

Now here is where it gets interesting if FF push (and FG says it cannot stop FF ) through legislation on it and if we lose a European case on it then FF will suffer down the line because of it. Well we are at the same position here. If BE gets illegal state aid then down the line BE will be fined, the taxpayer will be sued and those politicians that pushed this agenda will suffer as well

end of the road

a

Idbatterim wrote: »

Who says it has to be shut down immediately? give it several months to put everything in place...

can't be done, if the company went to the wall there would be no company

Idbatterim wrote: »

Transport is one critical area that in my opinion is now worth tackling head on and privatising... For the good of everyone except BE staff!

nothing to tackle. privatizing would likely cost to much and would be for the good of nobody but the deluded. privates can open new routes and claim for a subsidy if they so wish but the current PSO routes are be's routes.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

privates can open new routes and claim for a subsidy if they so wish but the current PSO routes are be's routes.

How do you think a private operator can "claim" for a subsidy?

Also PSO routes are not BE routes, they are socially desirable routes which are currently operated mainly by BE (but also private operators) under contract from the NTA, the NTA can choose to give any route to another operator if they so wish when the contract is up. They operate PSO routes, they don't own or have any right to operate the route over any other operator at time of contract renewal.

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

can't be done, if the company went to the wall there would be no company


nothing to tackle. privatizing would likely cost to much and would be for the good of nobody but the deluded. privates can open new routes and claim for a subsidy if they so wish but the current PSO routes are be's routes.

The company need not be put into receivership it could be wound down. The rest of you post is again totally incorrect. It a fabrication of wishy-washy fake news and untruths. The current PSO routes are only BE routes as long as the NRA do not decide to tender out. At the stroke of a pen Minister Ross could instruct the NRA to start such a process.

n97 mini

Bass Reeves wrote: »

s. The current PSO routes are only BE routes as long as the NRA do not decide to tender out. At the stroke of a pen Minister Ross could instruct the NRA to start such a process.

The NTA. But I believe the contracts are 5 years in length and not due to expire till 2019.

GM228

n97 mini wrote: »

The NTA. But I believe the contracts are 5 years in length and not due to expire till 2019.

Correct, valid till December 2019 (30.11.19).

Peppa Pig

n97 mini wrote: »

The NTA.

Maybe Shane Ross has called in the National Rifle Association to counteract Dermot O'Leary's declaration of war

Bass Reeves

n97 mini wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

s. The current PSO routes are only BE routes as long as the NRA do not decide to tender out. At the stroke of a pen Minister Ross could instruct the NRA to start such a process.

The NTA. But I believe the contracts are 5 years in length and not due to expire till 2019.

But if Bus Eireann is unable to carry out it's PSO obligation then the game is up. It is my opinion that part of the present crisis is also to do with PSO routes which BE may not be able to continue to run under present funding structure. There costs are out of line with this obligation as well from what I am hearing. In January BE lost 1.6 million it is hard to imagine that it lost all this money on Expressway only. Remember the reforms are right across BE not just in Expressway. On a full year basis it could lose over 20 million this year.

Brendan Bendar

Hmmm

My take on this and it's only my opinion is that O'Leary and Noone saw the writing on the wall and backed down.

They saw the 'get out of jail card' and decided to take it.

Let's hope now that reality and common sense prevails.

Saw Noone on the 6.1 News and looks like he is a beaten docket.

By contrast the female on the BE side looked cool calm and collected.

For the sake of the many decent people in that company let's hope that they
get their voice and not be led by the nose by a few who thirst for conflict.

murphaph

n97 mini wrote: »

The NTA. But I believe the contracts are 5 years in length and not due to expire till 2019.

Then the government should immediately direct the NTA to proceed with open market tendering for the PSO routes with a view to halting all subsidy paid directly to Bus Eireann. Let Bus Eireann tender for the routes against competitive companies whose management and staff live in the real world with the rest of us.

If they then can't compete, let the company fail. The private operators will be able to pick up cheap used BE coaches and ex-BE drivers at half price and the taxpayer will finally start getting value for money out of the state subsidy to public transport (which I would increase if it were being spent wisely but not so long as it mostly goes to a wasteful CIE!)

It would mean propping the mess up for a couple of years more alright but it's the only sane way to proceed.

ANYONE who disagrees is in favour of stiffing the taxpayer (ordinary workers!) to satisfy a cabal of entitled semi-state employees who have never felt the chill wind of competition and who think they are irreplaceable (they are not).

GM228

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But if Bus Eireann is unable to carry out it's PSO obligation then the game is up. It is my opinion that part of the present crisis is also to do with PSO routes which BE may not be able to continue to run under present funding structure. There costs are out of line with this obligation as well from what I am hearing. In January BE lost 1.6 million it is hard to imagine that it lost all this money on Expressway only. Remember the reforms are right across BE not just in Expressway. On a full year basis it could lose over 20 million this year.

In 2015 3.7% of BEs €5.6m deficit was attributed to PSO services due to payroll increases, another 2% was due to exceptional items, the rest was expressway.

Subvention has since increased and offset the payroll increases and BE projected there would be no PSO deficit from 2016, but for arguements sake it there was a similar level only €59,200 of the €1.6m loss would be PSO related.

salonfire

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Maybe Shane Ross has called in the National Rifle Association to counteract Dermot O'Leary's declaration of war

Laughed at this comment!

The wording you hear from the Nbru is like an excited school boy.

Mother of all strikes and on a war footing. Very unprofessional sounding.

end of the road

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Hmmm

My take on this and it's only my opinion is that O'Leary and Noone saw the writing on the wall and backed down.

They saw the 'get out of jail card' and decided to take it.

Let's hope now that reality and common sense prevails.

Saw Noone on the 6.1 News and looks like he is a beaten docket.

By contrast the female on the BE side looked cool calm and collected.

For the sake of the many decent people in that company let's hope that they
get their voice and not be led by the nose by a few who thirst for conflict.

both seemed cool calm and collected, and ready to talk. there was no backing down here by anyone, just simply more time given for talks which will hopefully bare fruit.

murphaph wrote: »

Then the government should immediately direct the NTA to proceed with open market tendering for the PSO routes with a view to halting all subsidy paid directly to Bus Eireann. Let Bus Eireann tender for the routes against competitive companies whose management and staff live in the real world with the rest of us.

If they then can't compete, let the company fail. The private operators will be able to pick up cheap used BE coaches and ex-BE drivers at half price and the taxpayer will finally start getting value for money out of the state subsidy to public transport (which I would increase if it were being spent wisely but not so long as it mostly goes to a wasteful CIE!)

It would mean propping the mess up for a couple of years more alright but it's the only sane way to proceed.

ANYONE who disagrees is in favour of stiffing the taxpayer (ordinary workers!) to satisfy a cabal of entitled semi-state employees who have never felt the chill wind of competition and who think they are irreplaceable (they are not).

in my view open market tendering brings nothing that can't be got with the current system, as the authority decides everything and i believe bus eireann are meeting their obligations. full subsidy would have to be paid while bus eireann are running routes as per the obligations, this would include during tendering, so to hault it while tendering would take place would be against the obligations and routes would have to be stopped running for non-payment. full price would have to be charged for the busses if bus eireann went to the wall and full wages would have to be paid to the drivers, both the unions will be insuring both should happen in such an event i should hope. the type of value for money some want, aka not actual value for money but low wages and little workers rights won't be happening regardless of who runs the service. the only sane way to proceed is for a publically owned and funded company to remain. competition can only happen on profitable routes, all other routes will have 1 operator.

GM228

murphaph wrote: »

Then the government should immediately direct the NTA to proceed with open market tendering for the PSO routes with a view to halting all subsidy paid directly to Bus Eireann. Let Bus Eireann tender for the routes against competitive companies whose management and staff live in the real world with the rest of us.

If they then can't compete, let the company fail. The private operators will be able to pick up cheap used BE coaches and ex-BE drivers at half price and the taxpayer will finally start getting value for money out of the state subsidy to public transport (which I would increase if it were being spent wisely but not so long as it mostly goes to a wasteful CIE!)

It would mean propping the mess up for a couple of years more alright but it's the only sane way to proceed.

ANYONE who disagrees is in favour of stiffing the taxpayer (ordinary workers!) to satisfy a cabal of entitled semi-state employees who have never felt the chill wind of competition and who think they are irreplaceable (they are not).

Problem is under the terms of the PSO contract failure to deliver the service can't invalidate the contract. A very stupid term of contract.

49 WAIVER

Failure by any Party at any time to enforce any provision of this Agreement or to require performance by the Operator of any of the provisions of this Agreement shall not be construed as a waiver of any such provision and shall not affect the validity of this Agreement or any part thereof or the right of such Party to enforce any provision in accordance with its terms.

The only time the contract can be ended early is if BE cease to exist.

Bass Reeves

end of the road wrote: »

both seemed cool calm and collected, and ready to talk. there was no backing down here by anyone, just simply more time given for talks which will hopefully bare fruit.

I think you need to go to Specsavers for both a sight and hearing test. It seems you need both to be sorted out. SIPTU organiser talking about redundancy payments. O'Leary speaking with a forked tongue speaking one-way for the drivers the other way to the public. SIPTU was hauled over the coals by some other trade unions over it handling of the LUAS dispute a d burnt a lot of capital to sort it out.

end of the road wrote: »

in my view open market tendering brings nothing that can't be got with the current system, as the authority decides everything and i believe bus eireann are meeting their obligations. full subsidy would have to be paid while bus eireann are running routes as per the obligations, this would include during tendering, so to hault it while tendering would take place would be against the obligations and routes would have to be stopped running for non-payment. full price would have to be charged for the busses if bus eireann went to the wall and full wages would have to be paid to the drivers, both the unions will be insuring both should happen in such an event i should hope. the type of value for money some want, aka not actual value for money but low wages and little workers rights won't be happening regardless of who runs the service. the only sane way to proceed is for a publically owned and funded company to remain. competition can only happen on profitable routes, all other routes will have 1 operator.

Again a load of rubbish no facts just a lot of incorrect retoric. Rights for some selected workers which are not rights but rather the protection of a select section at the expense of the greater good. Your sane process is insane putting a select few ahead of the greater good. Rubbish from start to finish

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i find dublin bus a goodish service. bus eireann as well any time i have used them. have had the odd rude driver but most have been friendly in my experience. yes there is lots of room to improve, but both bus eireann and dublin bus do make an effort in my experience.
the parent CIE could go, it has no use.
you all ready know my views on irish rail but even then their issues are easily sorted in my view. and as this isn't relevant to this thread i can't say any more in relation to the other companies.

Do you remember the last time that it was suggested by a minister, that the CIE parent company should be abolished? No fares day and a complete meltdown from both SIPTU and the NBRU. Did you support that?

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Do you remember the last time that it was suggested by a minister, that the CIE parent company should be abolished? No fares day and a complete meltdown from both SIPTU and the NBRU. Did you support that?

i do. i did sort of support their action as i thought at the time that it wasn't just the parent that would go had the minister got his way. and again this really is for another thread.

Bass Reeves

Just came across this now

end of the road wrote: »

if the company went to the wall there would be no company
.

Brilliant analysis none of us understood this if it went to the wall no company. We will have to nominate you for the Nobel prize in economics

end of the road wrote: »

nothing to tackle. privatizing would likely cost to much and would be for the good of nobody but the deluded. privates can open new routes and claim for a subsidy if they so wish but the current PSO routes are be's routes.

Again incorrect privatisation would cost less, after first day cost of dumping BE the drain on the public purse would be finished. If we could add IE and DB it would be win, win, win. Yes routes are BE routes at present but they can be tendered in the future.