Bust Éireann

horseburger

murphaph wrote: »

Are you for real?

Charging a nominal fare on FTP journeys during peak time will not result in the OAP's disposable income suddenly being spent on Amazon or vanishing into thin air.

They will just go into town an hour later when there's plenty of spare capacity in the system.

The follow on of saying they should be told to use later buses, to make space for other passengers, is saying to people going to work, that they should only use services at particular times, according to what time at which they start work.

So, the person who starts work later than the other person, who had been using the same scheduled bus service, gets penalized, even though the person who might start work later, may very well be contributing to a local business near their workplace by buying coffee or whatever on the way into work.

But then, people who use buses to and from work, would never be told just to use buses at specific times, because of the way when you use bus services regularly, especially in the Dublin city centre area, that you, very often, end up having less time than you initially thought you had, due to traffic congestion, and needing to connect with different buses, in places like D'Olier Street, and one or other of the buses being delayed, due to traffic.

No one is asked their reasons for using a service when they buy a ticket. I don't think it is a good move to tell older people not to use specific services, taking into consideration what I mentioned about every bus user, both those who buy tickets and older people who use free travel passes, not ending up having as much time, as they initially estimated, getting to and from places.

Bass Reeves

salonfire wrote: »

Some surprising points made by McCarthy there.

Is public transport intercity in decline? I was under the impression that it was on the increase. Driven by the private operators.

He also calls for a comparison on pay. Sure that was already released, we know Bus Eireann drivers are getting overtime frequently.

I think McCarthy was making the point that the public service part was in decline. That would be rail section of this service. I do not think he was saying that the Bus part was in decline. However he did say that bus journeys only accounted for less that 5% of journeys on InterCity routes

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

The follow on of saying they should be told to use later buses, to make space for other passengers, is saying to people going to work, that they should only use services at particular times, according to what time at which they start work.

So, the person who starts work later than the other person, who had been using the same scheduled bus service, gets penalized, even though the person who might start work later, may very well be contributing to a local business near their workplace by buying coffee or whatever on the way into work.

But then telling people who use buses to and from work, would never be told just to use buses at specific times, because of the way when you use bus services regularly, especially in the Dublin city centre area, that you always end up having less time than you initially thought you had, due to traffic congestion, and needing to connect with different buses, in places like D'Olier Street, and one or other of the buses being delayed, due to traffic.

There's a big difference between those working and those taking a free travel pass....

And how much do you think the working people are spending on transport costs and paying in tax. A lot more than the free pass holders that is sure.

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

There's a big difference between those working and those taking a free travel pass....

And how much do you think the working people are spending on transport costs and paying in tax. A lot more than the free pass holders that is sure.

The point of my post was about the time taken to get to and from places, and the knock on effect of telling people to only use services at particular times.

Bus services will fill even without older people on them using free travel passes. The older people who avail of the free travel passes also paid taxes during their time in employment. Is the tax paid by older people, during their time in employment, less important to you than others?

devnull wrote: »

Where operators have took services out of towns they have had replacement services added to them to ensure that they are not cut off. This is a fact. I'm not interested in what you think will or may not happen in your world.. What you heard on TV or read somewhere I am interested in reality and deal in facts not hyperbole.

As for saying it's not about public and private you are the one who keeps dividing them between bus eireann and the rest. I mention them altogether because I have no agenda or vested interest. I just Base my posts on facts not idly speculate about what may happen in future.

As for how frequent services are it depends on demand from the towns really. If for example three towns have ten services a day on a route and carry 25 passengers to and from them combined then when an intercity route drops them a replacement route linking the stops to intercity connections should not still be ten times a day.

devnull, as you well know, I am comparing the services operated by Bus Éireann, to those operated by other companies, because that is the situation, as it is at present.

It is perfectly reasonable to compare services currently operated by Bus Éireann to those operated by other companies.

The issues I highlight are valid and relevant.

In fairness, you recently wrote very sympathetically regarding Fine Gael's stance on bus services, and you singled out my reference to Sinn Féin in the recent Joint Oireachtas debate, where in my posts I had mentioned the contributions from four different public representatives, from four different political persuasions - and you accused me of being Imelda Munster! - and your posts read remarkably similar to an article written recently by a Fine Gael public representative, who was writing about the current issue, so, as a result, I suspect you aren't exactly neutral.:)

markpb

horseburger wrote: »

Patronising, ignorant comment, insinuating that older people have nothing better to be doing with their time than shopping and going in to St Stephen's Green to feed the ducks.

You're being overly sensitive about this. With the exception of medical appointments, can you tell me what trips OAPs need to make that are time sensitive and could not be delayed until after the peak hours?

You and EOTR are the ones saying that they absolutely must get free travel and it must be at peak times. Can you back that up?

horseburger

markpb wrote: »

You're being overly sensitive about this. With the exception of medical appointments, can you tell me what trips OAPs need to make that are time sensitive and could not be delayed until after the peak hours?

You and EOTR are the ones saying that they absolutely must get free travel and it must be at peak times. Can you back that up?

You are absolutely correct! All older people do is feed ducks and bed block the hospitals!:)

murphaph

horseburger wrote: »

You are absolutely correct! All older people do is feed ducks and bed block the hospitals!:)

Again a serious question is dodged by the side that think there is not cost in providing a third of the population with free travel.

If FTP holders have super important appointments to keep which necessitate them traveling at peak time that's fine, they can just pay a nominal (still reduced!) fare to do so.

n97 mini

horseburger wrote: »

Patronising, ignorant comment, insinuating that older people have nothing better to be doing with their time than shopping and going in to St Stephen's Green to feed the ducks.

I think he's implying that as retired people they don't have to be in work for 9am or risk being sanctioned... or get home by 6.15pm to collect the kids before the creche closes etc.

joeysoap

I'll wade in here since most if not all BE's problems appear to be FTP related, I have the FTP because I qualified by age.

Unless I really needed to I wouldn't dream of getting a train or bus during peak periods. Standing room only. Applies to early trains too (at least it does on the Enterprise)I had an appointment in Dublin at 11am around September, and caught the 9.15 Enterprise to Dublin and it was full on arrival at Dundalk. We stood in the area -along with many others- outside the carriage doors for the hour.

There is a great choice of bus departures from Dundalk to Dublin (both private and BE) but again we wouldn't dream of getting one at peak times (unless absolutely necessary) I think most OAP FTP holders would think the same way. Where the problem might arise is where there are no alternatives available.

I suspect most FTP holders choose BE over private company's because the BE drives don't judge. And I am aware that most pensioners on the continent get discounted travel only.

hmmm

joeysoap wrote: »

I'll wade in here since most if not all BE's problems appear to be FTP related

Expressway's problems are not FTP related - this is a smokescreen erected by the unions in the hope that an increase in the payment could be used by the Minister as a way to put money into BE. The government hasn't taken the bait.

The problems are that they are uncompetitive versus private companies.

The only solution for the unions is more money from the government or to force private operators out of the market.

horseburger

Last Stop wrote: »

I would advocate a €10 "registration fee" for the free travel pass. I mean there is 1.2 million people using it FFS.
I am also acutely aware that any changes to the free travel pass would ironically see all those entitled to it making us of it to protest outside the Dáil :rolleyes::rolleyes:

murphaph wrote: »

Again a serious question is dodged by the side that think there is not cost in providing a third of the population with free travel.

If FTP holders have super important appointments to keep which necessitate them traveling at peak time that's fine, they can just pay a nominal (still reduced!) fare to do so.

I am not sure that 1.2 million people are actually using their free travel passes, on a regular basis in the way that is being suggested. I am not sure that there are that many people taking up space, inconveniencing other paying passengers, in the way that is being implied, in this forum.

An Irish Times article, about an October 2014 Irish government report, states that there are 1.2 million people entitled to the Free Travel Pass.

The article is about a report titled, Going Forward: A Review of the Free Travel Scheme.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Free_Travel_Review_Oct2014.pdf

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/numbers-qualifying-for-free-travel-rising-every-year-1.2939398

The Irish Times article states that it was "undertaken by an interdepartmental group established by the Minister for Social Protection and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport".

In the article, it is stated that:

"As of July 2014, there were 799,672 people with a free travel pass. When passes for their spouses or companions – given to those who have difficulty travelling on their own – are included, this rises to “1.2 million people with free travel eligibility”.

The articles draws a distinction between the numbers eligible to avail of a free travel pass, and the numbers actually using a free travel pass.

The article indicates that not all those are using the free travel pass, despite being eligible to use it.

Interestingly, considering that many people do not read full articles, it is stated in the very last sentence of the article, that:

"A previous survey found that 21 per cent of people “rarely or never use” their travel pass". That suggests, therefore, that the numbers of spouses and companions, using free travel would also be significantly less.

It seems to me, taking into consideration the detail in the Irish Times article and the statistics in the 2014 government report, that stating that 1.2 million people avail of free travel, is incorrect.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/numbers-qualifying-for-free-travel-rising-every-year-1.2939398

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Free_Travel_Review_Oct2014.pdf

The 2012 Active Retirement Ireland report to which I referred in a previous post, states that:

"Based on the latest figures available, there are currently 688,000 Free Travel pass holders in Ireland. At least two thirds of these recipients are 66 years of age or over".

"Some 700,000 people currently avail of the free travel scheme, which is issued by the Department of Social Protection".

http://www.activeirl.ie/download/news/Free Travel Scheme Position Paper FINAL 21 June 2012.pdf?PHPSESSID=155475ae956892eb5be4fb5c6087d92b

murphaph

The FTP needs reform IMO and part of that reform should come with a rethink in how unprofitable routes (probably the vast majority, even in urban areas) should be paid for.

I advocate the typical German model where the NTA would control the fare box completely. The operators would collect fares and forward them to the NTA.

Who operates the route would be decided by competitive tender. Bus Eireann would be as entitled to tender as any other company but Bus Eireann should be severed from the state. The state does not need to own buses or employ bus drivers.

Obviously whatever reformed FTP came out of all this would be valid on all routes under NTA control.

The FTP and "general public tariff areas" should match. If I have an annual travel (paid) pass for say greater Dublin transit, my neighbour should be entitled to an FTP for the same geographic region. Here in Germany my Berlin area annual pass is worthless in any other city. Likewise, my elderly Berlin neighbours who might buy the discounted Berlin area ticket for OAPs cannot use it outside Berlin. This should be the same in Ireland. Nationwide free travel is unheard of here and should not exist there either. It's to generous at the expense of the taxpayer.

If an OAP who is in financial difficulty has hospital appointments to attend and needs to make regular use of public transport outside their region, then a supplemental payment should be made by the HSE as this should be considered the exception rather than the rule. The current FTP is the result of vote buying.

Of course the FTP goes way beyond older people as we know, given a third of the population is "entitled" to it currently. It's clearly out of control at present. It's a Ponzi scheme effectively.

horseburger

n97 mini wrote: »

I think he's implying that as retired people they don't have to be in work for 9am or risk being sanctioned... or get home by 6.15pm to collect the kids before the creche closes etc.

I think he was also implying, that retired people have nothing better to be doing with themselves, than feed the ducks in St Stephen's Green.

That some people, on this forum, have a condescending attitude towards older people, cannot be denied.

Everyone gets old. Everyone, at some point in their life, will be termed a "coffin dodger" by others, by younger people.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100669220&postcount=73

n97 mini

horseburger wrote: »

I think he was also implying, that retired people have nothing better to be doing with themselves, than feed the ducks in St Stephen's Green.

I think you're putting words in his mouth. For starters he never mentioned St. Stephen's Green, that was you. You're dressing it up to make it into something it isn't.

murphaph

People in Germany and everywhere else get old too! You're getting too offended on their behalf.

end of the road

murphaph wrote: »

Again a serious question is dodged by the side that think there is not cost in providing a third of the population with free travel.

If FTP holders have super important appointments to keep which necessitate them traveling at peak time that's fine, they can just pay a nominal (still reduced!) fare to do so.

no . it's likely many ftp holders can't afford such a fare.

murphaph wrote: »

The FTP needs reform IMO and part of that reform should come with a rethink in how unprofitable routes (probably the vast majority, even in urban areas) should be paid for.

I advocate the typical German model where the NTA would control the fare box completely. The operators would collect fares and forward them to the NTA.

Who operates the route would be decided by competitive tender. Bus Eireann would be as entitled to tender as any other company but Bus Eireann should be severed from the state. The state does not need to own buses or employ bus drivers.

Obviously whatever reformed FTP came out of all this would be valid on all routes under NTA control.

The FTP and "general public tariff areas" should match. If I have an annual travel (paid) pass for say greater Dublin transit, my neighbour should be entitled to an FTP for the same geographic region. Here in Germany my Berlin area annual pass is worthless in any other city. Likewise, my elderly Berlin neighbours who might buy the discounted Berlin area ticket for OAPs cannot use it outside Berlin. This should be the same in Ireland. Nationwide free travel is unheard of here and should not exist there either. It's to generous at the expense of the taxpayer.

If an OAP who is in financial difficulty has hospital appointments to attend and needs to make regular use of public transport outside their region, then a supplemental payment should be made by the HSE as this should be considered the exception rather than the rule. The current FTP is the result of vote buying.

Of course the FTP goes way beyond older people as we know, given a third of the population is "entitled" to it currently. It's clearly out of control at present. It's a Ponzi scheme effectively.

i disagree. the state needs a public bus company, and therefore bus eireann must remain publically owned so that ireland continues to have a public bus company, a company who can step in whenever wherever when required. there maybe some on the ftp who don't need it but that is about the only reform needed in relation to it.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

the state needs a public bus company, and therefore bus eireann must remain publically owned so that ireland continues to have a public bus company, a company who can step in whenever wherever when required. there maybe some on the ftp who don't need it but that is about the only reform needed in relation to it.

Why? Why does the state need BE?

And what are they steping into "whenever wherever when required" exactly?

As I already previously posted (and one in a long list of posts you ignored):-

GM228 wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

the operator has stipulations and requirements to meet in the contract so simply have to meet those. it's not their job to do any more, so therefore the routes can't be operated any better. so no reason exists to remove the publically owned, publically funded company in my view.

The same applies to BE, they also have no need to do any more than the stipulations and requirements of the contract, so using your own analogy no reason exists to keep the publically owned and publically funded company either. BE would not give any improved "greater good of the communities" over any other operator when they are both providing the same service under contract.

Flex

murphaph wrote: »

People in Germany and everywhere else get old too! You're getting too offended on their behalf.

Its deliberate to divert from the actual topic and questions being put forward

flutered

devnull wrote: »

There's a big difference between those working and those taking a free travel pass....

And how much do you think the working people are spending on transport costs and paying in tax. A lot more than the free pass holders that is sure.

i paid over 70% in tax, i have a ftp which i never use

flutered

markpb wrote: »

You're being overly sensitive about this. With the exception of medical appointments, can you tell me what trips OAPs need to make that are time sensitive and could not be delayed until after the peak hours?

You and EOTR are the ones saying that they absolutely must get free travel and it must be at peak times. Can you back that up?

so you are making second class citizens out of the oa'ps, you will hopefully be one

n97 mini

flutered wrote: »

so you are making second class citizens out of the oa'ps, you will hopefully be one

The system makes them different as they have free travel. After any reform of the system OAPs would be able to pay the same price for a ticket as anyone else, like they were before.

murphaph

The real reason eotr and co don't want any reform of the FTP is because they know it would come as part of an overall review of how public transport is funded and this would, assuming sanity prevailed, lead to the introduction of route tendering for all routes (with the NTA controlling the fare box), which would lead to the end of a state bus company paying twice the market rate on wages. And don't give me any guff about it being the market rate because that's what they get. They get it because the current system allows them to hold the passengers to random. This would no longer happen in my world.

Glenster

When was the last time anyone under the age of 70 who had an actual job got a buseireann bus?

Answer- never.

GM228

Glenster wrote: »

When was the last time anyone under the age of 70 who had an actual job got a buseireann bus?

Answer- never.

You think everyone who uses BE is over 70 or unemployed?

oppenheimer1

flutered wrote: »

so you are making second class citizens out of the oa'ps, you will hopefully be one

Hardly. Today's OAP's enjoy a standard of living that will be far out of reach for the generations coming up behind them. People have to remember that you don't pay in to get back out. Pensions are funded from today's tax payers.

horseburger

n97 mini wrote: »

I think you're putting words in his mouth. For starters he never mentioned St. Stephen's Green, that was you. You're dressing it up to make it into something it isn't.

Ok, perhaps not St Stephen's Green, but anywhere else in Dublin, or anywhere else in the country, that he thinks that older people sit around feeding ducks, as they while away the time before they die.

The negative attitude, of the poster, against older people, is clear.

Here is what was stated: "Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour".

markpb wrote: »

I not suggesting their trips or their move are less important, just less time sensitive. Ducks don't have to be fed at rush hour, shopping doesn't have to be done first thing in the morning. They could wait a few minutes until the transport costs have fallen.

And before that, this was stated:

"If someone is going shopping or feeding the ducks, those trips are definitely discretionary".

markpb wrote: »

The cost of transporting someone at peak times is more than the cost of transporting them earlier or later. Transport operators around the world try to encourage people to travel off peak for that reason. If someone is gifted free transport by the state, wouldn't it make sense for them to be encouraged to travel at a time when it's cheaper for the state? If someone is going shopping or feeding the ducks, those trips are definitely discretionary.



I'm sorry, what!? This is the most bizarre thing I've read in a very long time! Do you think that allocating money on buses but not buying them magically makes extra capacity?

horseburger

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Hardly. Today's OAP's enjoy a standard of living that will be far out of reach for the generations coming up behind them. People have to remember that you don't pay in to get back out. Pensions are funded from today's tax payers.

The standard of living is not what was under scrutiny.

What was being referred to was being made feel second class on a bus service. Retired people paid taxes throughout their time in employment. Are the taxes, that they paid, of less value?

oppenheimer1

horseburger wrote: »

The standard of living is not what was under scrutiny.

What was being referred to was being made feel second class on a bus service. Retired people paid taxes throughout their time in employment. Are the taxes, that they paid, of less value?

It's not that their taxes are of less value, it's that the taxes they paid are long spent.

In any case I agree that OAP's do not cause excessive loadings at peak time generally. That said, where the network is at capacity it should refuse to carry non fare paying passengers. These passengers can wait until capacity becomes available or pay the normal fare.

n97 mini

horseburger wrote: »

Ok, perhaps not St Stephen's Green, but anywhere else in Dublin, or anywhere else in the country, that he thinks that older people sit around feeding ducks, as they while away the time before they die.

No, the only thing he said is that old people feed ducks, and that ducks don't need to be fed at rush hour. If they never feed ducks then you're right.

It's kind of like arguing he has a bad attitude towards ducks too.

horseburger

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's not that their taxes are of less value, it's that the taxes they paid are long spent.

In any case I agree that OAP's do not cause excessive loadings at peak time generally. That said, where the network is at capacity it should refuse to carry non fare paying passengers. These passengers can wait until capacity becomes available or pay the normal fare.

Many coach companies, request that older people with free travel passes, wait for their later services, to give way to other passengers. What you are suggesting should happen, already happens.