Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

demfad · 06-12-2016 3:45pm #1

https://thinkprogress.org/russian-interference-in-elections-around-the-world-is-spreading-a6b1e3c78c8#.63n4svnl4
U.S intelligence agencies believe the Kremlin may have influenced the recent U.S presidential election by hacking the DNCs email system.
The same phenomenon is occuring in Europe with German and Italian leaders now having to fight off fake news and wikileaks hacks. In Italy little has been done to disguise the fact that anti Renzi and pro 5 star fake news was originating on Sputnik and other pro Russian propaganda sites.

In France, Juppe who was hot favourite to top Sarko and Fillon for the right nomination slumped in the final week after a fake news story linking him to the Muslim brotherhood from 2014 re-emerged embellished. The result was that in a major European nuclear power the presidential election will be between Fillon who is hugely pro Putin and social conservative and Marine Le Pen.

In the US there is evidence of a tsunami of pre Trump fake news facebook sites originating from the same town in Macedonia. Source

On Twitter non human and human Russian bots were significantly involved in trending popular stories and posters during the U.S. election. Key hashtags were retweeted by self deleting accounts until they were picked up by a high profile alt-right poster and then trended. The St Petersburg human troll factory were majorly involved also.
Source. These trolls were active during Brexit also.

That brings us to alt-right influence:
In Europe Putin has funded almost every ultra-right group on the continent including La Front Nationale to the tune of over €10 million. Since Marine Le Pen endorsed the Crimean plebiscite she has been in Moscow several times. These right wing groups set up 'election' organisations to validate the Crimean result. Farage has been offered a slow on RT (formerly Russia Today).

The money and influence behind Trumps campaign is Rebekah Mercer. Source: Kelly Anne Conway and particularly Steve Bannon are long time associates. Her Father Robert Mercer made his fortune using algorythms to make money on and for hedge funds. They were a big donor to Breitbart news. R Mercer sponsored Bannon and co to produce Clintons cash by a company in the same building as Breitbart. A Mercer company 'Cambridge Analytic' was the pollng company for Trumps campaign and crunched Facebooks habits of millions of users. Bannon is on the board of Cambridge Analytica. Farage is a long time frind and acquantance of Baonnon. Cambridge did the polling for the Leave.eu campaign. Raheem Kassam Farage's chief advisor was editor for Breitbart news London. He went for UKIPs leadership recently. Breitbart France is neing stup to help Marine Le Pen. No doubt Cambridge analytica will make an appearance there, as will the half truths, fake news and troll army that the Kremlin/Alt-right seem to employ.
The common ideology between Putin/Alt-right is proclaimed to be anti-globalisation but is really anti-liberalism. You see it in Putins/Russian Orthodox attacks on the LGBT community and women. The White house cabinet set up by Trump/Mercer/Bannon is similar.
The EU is the prize and it can only be taken down by targetting individual countries to leave.
Do you agree that this subversion of democratic election exists? What can the EU, governments, concerned citizens do to fight it?
This is not an attack on any ideology, rather the methods some ideologies are using to subvert elections.

Edit: Method of Russian twitter bots in US election and to a lesser extend Brexit.
http://heatst.com/world/how-russias-twitter-bots-and-trolls-work-with-donald-trump-campaign-accounts/

osmiumartist · 06-12-2016 9:40pm

You're using "alt right" and "ultra right" interchangeably then?

demfad · 07-12-2016 1:24pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

You're using "alt right" and "ultra right" interchangeably then?

Yes i am. And white supremacist. Nazi also. The myriad of groups that are supported by Bannon and Putin reflects this range.
E.g The alt-right identarian group in Austria is headed by a former neo-nazi.
We saw Spencer and his 'alt-right' followers recite Hitler in German and use Nazi salutes.
The ultra right are trying to alter the message slightly in order not to alienate as many people, with the odd slip up. Best to call them what they are.

Thomas_... · 07-12-2016 1:32pm

demfad wrote: »

osmiumartist wrote: »

You're using "alt right" and "ultra right" interchangeably then?

Yes i am. And white supremacist. Nazi also. The myriad of groups that are supported by Bannon and Putin reflects this range.
E.g The alt-right identarian group in Austria is headed by a former neo-nazi.
We saw Spencer and his 'alt-right' followers recite Hitler in German and use Nazi salutes.
The ultra right are trying to alter the message slightly in order not to alienate as many people, with the odd slip up. Best to call them what they are.

Spot on. That is exactly the way they work and how they try to appear in public whilst being more radical when exposed by some sectretly filmed videos like in that which has gone around the world in the media when they "hailed" the election win by Trump. They are nothing but a bunch of disgusting backward people who are now posing a real threat to every three and divisive society (in a pluarilistic and liberal sense).

I see it exactly the way you do and I utterly dislike those far-right to right-wing nutters for various and plenty of reasons. They are worse liars than those they accuse of lying. It doesn't come from nowhere why Putin is so fond of Trump and despite the lack of evidence (which is rather hard to find in order to prove that Putin has his Hands in the rising of far-right parties across Europe) I have really no doubt that Putin is pulling some strings to get his "new world order" realised.

demfad · 07-12-2016 1:52pm

Thomas_... wrote: »

Spot on. That is exactly the way they work and how they try to appear in public whilst being more radical when exposed by some sectretly filmed videos like in that which has gone around the world in the media when they "hailed" the election win by Trump. They are nothing but a bunch of disgusting backward people who are now posing a real threat to every three and divisive society (in a pluarilistic and liberal sense).

I see it exactly the way you do and I utterly dislike those far-right to right-wing nutters for various and plenty of reasons. They are worse liars than those they accuse of lying. It doesn't come from nowhere why Putin is so fond of Trump and despite the lack of evidence (which is rather hard to find in order to prove that Putin has his Hands in the rising of far-right parties across Europe) I have really no doubt that Putin is pulling some strings to get his "new world order" realised.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/strange-bedfellows-putin-and-europe%E2%80%99s-far-right

But after Le Pen praised Russia’s actions in Ukraine, while Angela Merkel and other centrist European leaders were condemning it, Putin invited her to Moscow along with other representatives of the FN and other European far-right parties to observe the March referendum on Crimea’s accession to Russia. When she endorsed the Crimean referendum as legitimate, others on the European far right, including Austria’s FPÖ and Britain’s UKIP, followed suit. Russian media and bloggers, meanwhile, embraced Le Pen’s endorsement. One blogger started a “Merci Marine!” Twitter campaign.

The below also outlines the ethos of Putin's Russian, Bannon and Europe's right. The agenda is Christian fascism in Christian countries, or traditionalist authoritanarianism in non Christian (but friendly) countries e.g India.

Globalisation is being used as an excuse to attack and regress human rights.

But the infatuation of the Western European far right with Putin is about what it calls “values” as well as the constellation of nationalist issues that coalesce in opposition to the idea, as well as the fact, of “Europe.” Le Pen has gone so far as to call the Russian president a defender of “the Christian heritage of European civilization.”

The Putinist cultural conservatism that the far right admires has been enforced with an iron hand across Russian society. Most notorious is the anti-gay propaganda law passed in June 2013, which allows the government to infringe on LGBT individuals’ rights by banning peaceful demonstrations or imposing hefty fines on same-sex couples who are affectionate in public. The law was widely criticized by Western media, but in Russia, where population decline has reached a critical point, reinvigorating “family values” is high on the government’s agenda. Along with nationalism and law-and-order themes, traditional family values are key to Putin’s broader political ideology of “post-communist neo-conservatism.”

Thomas_... · 07-12-2016 1:59pm

demfad wrote: »

Thomas_... wrote: »

Spot on. That is exactly the way they work and how they try to appear in public whilst being more radical when exposed by some sectretly filmed videos like in that which has gone around the world in the media when they "hailed" the election win by Trump. They are nothing but a bunch of disgusting backward people who are now posing a real threat to every three and divisive society (in a pluarilistic and liberal sense).

I see it exactly the way you do and I utterly dislike those far-right to right-wing nutters for various and plenty of reasons. They are worse liars than those they accuse of lying. It doesn't come from nowhere why Putin is so fond of Trump and despite the lack of evidence (which is rather hard to find in order to prove that Putin has his Hands in the rising of far-right parties across Europe) I have really no doubt that Putin is pulling some strings to get his "new world order" realised.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/strange-bedfellows-putin-and-europe%E2%80%99s-far-right

But after Le Pen praised Russia’s actions in Ukraine, while Angela Merkel and other centrist European leaders were condemning it, Putin invited her to Moscow along with other representatives of the FN and other European far-right parties to observe the March referendum on Crimea’s accession to Russia. When she endorsed the Crimean referendum as legitimate, others on the European far right, including Austria’s FPÖ and Britain’s UKIP, followed suit. Russian media and bloggers, meanwhile, embraced Le Pen’s endorsement. One blogger started a “Merci Marine!” Twitter campaign.

The below also outlines the ethos of Putin's Russian, Bannon and Europe's right. The agenda is Christian fascism in Christian countries, or traditionalist authoritanarianism in non Christian (but friendly) countries e.g India.

Globalisation is being used as an excuse to attack and regress human rights.

But the infatuation of the Western European far right with Putin is about what it calls “values” as well as the constellation of nationalist issues that coalesce in opposition to the idea, as well as the fact, of “Europe.” Le Pen has gone so far as to call the Russian president a defender of “the Christian heritage of European civilization.”

The Putinist cultural conservatism that the far right admires has been enforced with an iron hand across Russian society. Most notorious is the anti-gay propaganda law passed in June 2013, which allows the government to infringe on LGBT individuals’ rights by banning peaceful demonstrations or imposing hefty fines on same-sex couples who are affectionate in public. The law was widely criticized by Western media, but in Russia, where population decline has reached a critical point, reinvigorating “family values” is high on the government’s agenda. Along with nationalism and law-and-order themes, traditional family values are key to Putin’s broader political ideology of “post-communist neo-conservatism.”

So it is and for this isn't enough, the Time Magazin has chosen the wrong person for the title "Person of the Year 2016" as they often did in the recent past. Not hard to guess who that is:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38238892

Donald Trump is Time magazine's Person of the Year

Count Dooku · 07-12-2016 2:04pm

It looks like liberals are still looking for excuses why they lost the most winnable for them elections and trying to blame everybody else, apart from themselves. They don’t want to see that they decided to go for worse possible Democratic candidate ever, who was not capable to deliver any messages to people, apart from ”It is my turn” and “Elect me – I am a women”. It is much easier to blame Putin, Macedonians, white supremacists and Antony Weiner, rather than see failure of liberal policies around the world

demfad · 07-12-2016 4:00pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

It looks like liberals are still looking for excuses why they lost the most winnable for them elections and trying to blame everybody else, apart from themselves. They don’t want to see that they decided to go for worse possible Democratic candidate ever, who was not capable to deliver any messages to people, apart from ”It is my turn” and “Elect me – I am a women”. It is much easier to blame Putin, Macedonians, white supremacists and Antony Weiner, rather than see failure of liberal policies around the world

You seem to be getting globalist and liberal mixed up. There are conservative globalists e.g Republicans and there can be liberal protectionists e.g Corbyn.

Do you believe that Russia are not trying to interfere in western elections?
Here are examples from the Italian referendum.
German intelligence is already worried about Russian interference in the upcoming elections.
Is the interference working? It has certainly worked in France:
Note: These links are all to real stories that provide sources for their information.

Over the last 10 years, France has seen a sharp increase in the readership of alternative, far-right sites, blogs and social media operations, referred to collectively as the fachosphère – (“facho” is slang for fascist). Promoting views including anti-immigration, nativism and ultra-nationalism, these sites are run independently, rather than by a political party....
One example, in the recent primary race to choose the French right’s presidential candidate, was a campaign on the fachosphère to claim the centre-right candidate Alain Juppé was linked to the Muslim Brotherhood. The accusation dated back to local elections in 2014 when distorted stories circulated on a far-right opinion website, accusing Juppé of wanting to build a “Mosque-Cathedral” in Bordeaux, where he is mayor. The story grew and was embellished during the primary campaigns to portray Juppé as a Muslim Brotherhood-linked “Ali Juppé”. Juppé said a “disgusting campaign” had been run against him.

demfad · 07-12-2016 5:02pm

As another example.

A story emerged last week that Trump had won the popular vote.
This was the origin of the fake news: https://70news.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/final-election-2016-numbers-trump-won-both-popular-62-9-m-62-7-m-and-electoral-college-vote-306-232-hey-change-org-scrap-your-loony-petition-now/
Quite quickly it became the top search return on google for the popular vote.
Trump even said it himself.
The fact that Hilary Clinton won the popular vote is now challenged and many many of the people who voted for Trump will believe otherwise.
This is more like something you would expect from a banana republic or North Korea. But this is the US in 2016.
That is why the MSM is constantly de-legitimized. It is so that voters can be manipulated and controlled on social media.

Elmer Blooker · 07-12-2016 5:03pm

In Europe Putin has funded almost every ultra-right group on the continent including La Front Nationale to the tune of over €10 million.

Have you a source for that?
To my knowledge Le Pen's FN received a LOAN from a bank called the First Czech Russian Bank. Banks give LOANS and not donations as we are all aware!

demfad · 07-12-2016 5:14pm

Yes technically a loan from a Russian bank. The FN is strapped for cash and cannot receive loans in her own country, but they are good for it in Russia. The loan came just after Le Pen publicly endorsed Putins annexation of Crimea and the plebiscide there. She is also asking for a 27 million loan for the upcoming elections also in Russia.
No proof, but a significant connection.

Le Pen denied that financing from a Russian-owned bank would influence the party’s policies. In 2014, her party secured an €11 million loan from the Moscow-based First Czech Russian Bank.

There were claims that Le Pen was given the loan as a “reward” for backing Vladimir Putin’s stance on Crimea. The accusation was made in April 2015, when a group of Russian hackers leaked text messages from a smartphone allegedly belonging to Timur Prokopenko, the head of the Kremlin internal affairs department, in which the support of the French far-right leader was discussed. She denied the claims.

Rjd2 · 07-12-2016 10:28pm

Le Pen has been pretty open about her lack of funding and taking money from where she can get it.

http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/politique/fn/marine-le-pen-justifie-le-pret-d-une-banque-russe-au-fn_1625124.html

Have also read a senior FN person say they will probably ask Russia banks for more money for a Le Pen run. But no conflict of interest for a women who has been investigated for fraud.:pac:

Ferrari3600 · 07-12-2016 10:32pm

Every single thing said in the OP may well be true - who knows.

But the US, which is basically run by neo-liberals/neo-conservatives (or at least has been until recently) has been interfering in elections all over the world for decades. Arguably, Putin is just playing them at their own game.

Count Dooku · 07-12-2016 10:38pm

demfad wrote: »

Do you believe that Russia are not trying to interfere in western elections?

And why it should be a problem?
First, West was interfering to Russian politics since independence. Just a reminder how it was looking two decades ago

and not much changed since then - nearly all so called "Russian pro-Western opposition" is on payroll from the Washington or Brussels(directly or through Soros like NGOs)
Second, the rumours about Russian interference are greatly exaggerated in order to hide own faults. Russia Today wouldn't able to have so much influence if it wouldn't tell inconvenient truth, which Western elites would like to hide from ordinary people. Current policies "lets take more refugees to annoy Putin" didn't work well, as result a lot of people are angry about political elites and Putin has very little to do with it. If Putin wouldn't be so convenient target for Western political establishment, then it would be somebody else, like North Korea, Iran or ISIS

Count Dooku · 07-12-2016 10:46pm

demfad wrote: »

As another example.

A story emerged last week that Trump had won the popular vote.
This was the origin of the fake news: https://70news.wordpress.com/2016/11/12/final-election-2016-numbers-trump-won-both-popular-62-9-m-62-7-m-and-electoral-college-vote-306-232-hey-change-org-scrap-your-loony-petition-now/
Quite quickly it became the top search return on google for the popular vote.
Trump even said it himself.
The fact that Hilary Clinton won the popular vote is now challenged and many many of the people who voted for Trump will believe otherwise.
This is more like something you would expect from a banana republic or North Korea. But this is the US in 2016.
That is why the MSM is constantly de-legitimized. It is so that voters can be manipulated and controlled on social media.

the only reason why social media are successfully breaking monopoly of MSM for fake news is that nobody would believe twitter and facebook if it wouldn't be so much lies from MSM
Most of media outlets wasted their credibility to support Clinton and looks laughing stock now

Count Dooku · 07-12-2016 10:47pm

demfad wrote: »

The FN is strapped for cash and cannot receive loans in her own country, but they are good for it in Russia.

Do you mean that French banks have right to decide what is good and what is bad for their country?

frostyjacks · 07-12-2016 11:03pm

The attempts to link Putin to the election result are tenuous at best. The alt-right are simply ordinary, law abiding, working class Americans who are fed up seeing people from every corner of the world jumping the queue ahead of them. They want their country back.

Besides, Putin is a stand up guy. This could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

demfad · 07-12-2016 11:20pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that French banks have right to decide what is good and what is bad for their country?

No. The point is that they are not credit worthy enough to get a loan in their own country which negates the question as to why they were credit worthy enough in Russia? Le Pens endorsement of the Crimean annexation/plebiscite was clearly the 'Collateral' for that loan.

KingBrian2 · 07-12-2016 11:31pm

For me it is good for countries to have dialogue with one another and ignoring the Russians is just crazy. They are the largest country in the world and we in Europe treat them as though they are insignificant. Do nothing but drink Vodka all day stereotype is rude and displays a superiority complex. That being said I don't approve of all the actions Russia has taken but unlike western countries they are not hypocritical. You know what you get with them the KGB is gone replaced with the far less intimidating Russian intelligence service but by that same token the CIA and MI5 are still around and messing up gvt around the world. Someone should send a fax(:D) to the CIA. The Cold War is over. Stop reliving 60's spy thrillers.

Count Dooku · 07-12-2016 11:35pm

demfad wrote: »

No. The point is that they are not credit worthy enough to get a loan in their own country which negates the question as to why they were credit worthy enough in Russia? Le Pens endorsement of the Crimean annexation/plebiscite was clearly the 'Collateral' for that loan.

Any explanation why the most popular party in France(from EU elections results) is not credit worthy?

Kitsunegari · 07-12-2016 11:44pm

demfad wrote: »

No. The point is that they are not credit worthy enough to get a loan in their own country which negates the question as to why they were credit worthy enough in Russia? Le Pens endorsement of the Crimean annexation/plebiscite was clearly the 'Collateral' for that loan.

Russia is obviously going to attempt to influence political parties in Europe. That's how this game works. There is a major swing of change across the politcial landscape and he's capitalising on it. The 'new-right' is the only alternative for the people who want to see less beaucracy, less political correctness and less being lectured by the neo-liberals. The left seem incapable of change in the short term and until then you'll see more right wing governments popping up in the first world.

If the left actually upheld liberal values and appealed to the common man they would easily beat the largely populist offering from candidates like Trump. Bernie Sanders was a good example of that. Until the left can change their appeal we'll continue to see Putin influence politics in Europe.

Yourself isit · 07-12-2016 11:53pm

demfad wrote: »

You seem to be getting globalist and liberal mixed up. There are conservative globalists e.g Republicans and there can be liberal protectionists e.g Corbyn.

Do you believe that Russia are not trying to interfere in western elections?
Here are examples from the Italian referendum.
German intelligence is already worried about Russian interference in the upcoming elections.
Is the interference working? It has certainly worked in France:
Note: These links are all to real stories that provide sources for their information.

Corbyn is a socialist not a liberal. Russia might be interfering in European elections. It definitely did in the cold war - communist parties across Europe and the workers party here.

The US also interferes and supports parties around the world - in fact it has overthrown democracies. Funny enough they supported real Nazis (of historical Nazi heritage) in the Ukraine - not just anti globalists, or anti immigrants.

demfad · 08-12-2016 12:05pm

Count Dooku wrote: »

And why it should be a problem?
First, West was interfering to Russian politics since independence. Just a reminder how it was looking two decades ago
and not much changed since then - nearly all so called "Russian pro-Western opposition" is on payroll from the Washington or Brussels(directly or through Soros like NGOs)

The problem is that Russia through producing fake news sites, hacking and selectively leaking, using trolls and bots to bring false stories to prominence are poisoning democratic discussion and elections. The fact that the US has done similar in the past does not make it acceptable. The objective in Europe is clearly to destroy the EU for the benefit of Russia. Most people should not accept a foreign malign dictatorship trying to destroy their childrens future.
Also beating up on homosexuals, women and minorities may be acceptable in Putin's Russia but it is not acceptable in democratic and liberal countries.

Also, can you substantiate please any evidence of subterfuge from the EU (Brussels) in Russia. No fake stories please.

Second, the rumours about Russian interference are greatly exaggerated in order to hide own faults. Russia Today wouldn't able to have so much influence if it wouldn't tell inconvenient truth, which Western elites would like to hide from ordinary people.

What inconvenient truths are circulated by RT, Sputnik and the hundreds of sites that amplify Russian fake news. What inconvenient truths to the army of Russian trolls based in Pertograd tell us?
That 3 million people voted illegally in the US election?
That Obama actually created ISIS?
What are the inconvenient truths? No Fake news stories please.

demfad · 08-12-2016 12:58pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

Corbyn is a socialist not a liberal. Russia might be interfering in European elections. It definitely did in the cold war - communist parties across Europe and the workers party here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn

An advocate of LGBT rights since his days as a London councillor in the 1970s, Corbyn championed such causes as the Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners (LGSM), civil partnerships and same-sex marriage,[49] and support for the Equality Bill.[50] He was the only Labour MP to vote in favour of a Liberal Democrat amendment to outlaw discrimination based on sexuality in 1998, before the ratification of the Equality Act 2006.[51] Corbyn voted in favour of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013, which ultimately legalised same-sex marriage in England and Wales.[52] He has also threatened "economic and diplomatic consequences" on those countries not supporting LGBT rights.[49] Corbyn supported the appointment of Michael Cashman as Labour's specialist LGBT rights international envoy in 2014.[50] He has also claimed that he would extend same-sex marriage to Northern Ireland and reverse the gay blood ban enacted by the Democratic Unionist Party, were he to become prime minister.[53]

You see there is a difference between globalist and liberal now?
The far right agenda is clearly to tar both with the same brush: to set back years of equality and human rights under the pretense of an anti-globalist stance.

demfad · 08-12-2016 2:28pm

Today the head of MI6 in a clear reference to Russia has said:

"Cyber-attacks, propaganda and subversion from hostile states pose a “fundamental threat” to European democracies, including the UK...
“They do this through means as varied as cyber-attacks, propaganda or subversion of democratic process. Our job is to give the government the information advantage: to shine a light on these activities and help our country and our allies, in particular across Europe, build the resilience they need to protect themselves.
“The risks at stake are profound and represent a fundamental threat to our sovereignty. They should be a concern to all those who share democratic values.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/08/hostile-states-pose-fundamental-threat-to-europe-says-mi6-chief

Yesterday in the US a group representing the Democratic party is putting severe pressure on Obama to reveal "demanding further disclosures regarding Russia’s role in the 2016 US elections"
In his Time magazine article, Trump denied Russia had any involvement in the election and accused the US intelligence community of lying.

Now a group of senior House Democrats has also written to the president, seeking a classified briefing for colleagues on “Russian entities’ hacking of American political organizations; hacking and strategic release of emails from campaign officials; the WikiLeaks disclosures; fake news stories produced and distributed with the intent to mislead American voters; and any other Russian or Russian-related interference or involvement in our recent election.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/obama-democrats-russia-role-elections

RDM_83 again · 08-12-2016 3:48pm

demfad wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn

You see there is a difference between globalist and liberal now?
The far right agenda is clearly to tar both with the same brush: to set back years of equality and human rights under the pretense of an anti-globalist stance.

Corbyn is a classic socialist, an egalitarian, a believer in nationalized industry ran for the good of the public, a believer in more open borders due to the old school globalist socialist view of a proletariat not bound by countries, in general a focus on class not nationality.
Stalin and Lenin were both undoubtedly communists but Lenin placed a much bigger emphasis on the idea of the global proletariat.

Justin Treadeu is an example of a classic Liberal, big on open borders and free trade, big on private enterprise. Where he is very much not liberal is in relation to hate speech laws and restrictions on free speech.
I would argue thats a product of being Canadian, not been living there long but its a deeply conformist society in a way Ireland and the UK aren't, its hard to explain how a place can be very diverse but also conformist but it is here.

Count Dooku · 08-12-2016 8:16pm

demfad wrote: »

The problem is that Russia through producing fake news sites, hacking and selectively leaking, using trolls and bots to bring false stories to prominence are poisoning democratic discussion and elections.

Do you mean that Russians rigged US elections by exposing how Hillary was rigging US elections?
EU/US have plenty of state funded fake news outlets, like BBC, Voice of America, Radio Liberty, Radio Free Europe, Deutsche Welle, who transmit their propaganda to Russia, but it doesn't work very well after their biased coverage events in Ukraine

demfad wrote: »

The fact that the US has done similar in the past does not make it acceptable.

Why?

demfad wrote: »

The objective in Europe is clearly to destroy the EU for the benefit of Russia.

The objective in Russia is clearly to destroy the Russia for the benefit of EU. Worked very well in 1990's during Yeltsin rule

demfad wrote: »

Most people should not accept a foreign malign dictatorship trying to destroy their childrens future.

Why Russian should accept foreign politician trying to destroy their children's future?

demfad wrote: »

Also beating up on homosexuals, women and minorities may be acceptable in Putin's Russia but it is not acceptable in democratic and liberal countries.

And why so little attention paid to the Persian Gulf monarchies?

demfad wrote: »

Also, can you substantiate please any evidence of subterfuge from the EU (Brussels) in Russia. No fake stories please.

5 millions for pro-EU opposition in Russia in 2013 directly from Brussels. Probably much more by now
http://www.epd.eu/wp-content/uploads/FRIDE-PB_164_Can_the_EU_help_foster_democracy_in_Russia.pdf

demfad wrote: »

What inconvenient truths are circulated by RT, Sputnik and the hundreds of sites that amplify Russian fake news. What inconvenient truths to the army of Russian trolls based in Pertograd tell us?

And how big is this "army"?

demfad wrote: »

That 3 million people voted illegally in the US election?

The only article on Russia Today which is mentioning voting illegals refers to Trump speech
The rest came from alt-right who become ballistic after Obama tried to encourage illegal immigrants to vote

demfad wrote: »

That Obama actually created ISIS?

Did you watch his interview on CNN yesterday?

demfad wrote: »

What are the inconvenient truths?

Everything what contradicts EU/US propaganda

osmiumartist · 09-12-2016 12:05am

demfad wrote: »

Today the head of MI6 in a clear reference to Russia has said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/08/hostile-states-pose-fundamental-threat-to-europe-says-mi6-chief

That's a terrible combination of sources to "prove" anything about Russia. They are both very much agenda led organisations.
There's no reason why Europe shouldn't have a common and integrated defense policy and strategy however no matter what the political or economic relationship between the countries in Europe is.

K-9 · 09-12-2016 1:17am

Mod:
If every media source is going to be dismissed as msm/liberal propaganda or Russian shill pieces then there's no point in anybody linking to anything ever!

Debate the articles or provide media articles that contradict them.

Gatling · 10-12-2016 4:08pm

Here's another story I posted in a similar thread which shows russian hackers are planting child pornography on people's computers who happen to oppose putin,
The stories then turn up on Sputnik and rt .

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/world/europe/vladimir-putin-russia-fake-news-hacking-cybersecurity.html

As always with these threads the common denominator is oh America did this and America did that so it's all fine and dandy that russia can do it ,
Then the thread disruptions begin and alternative historic facts are posted hoping to completely side track the original discussion

Yourself isit · 10-12-2016 4:11pm

demfad wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Jeremy_Corbyn

You see there is a difference between globalist and liberal now?
The far right agenda is clearly to tar both with the same brush: to set back years of equality and human rights under the pretense of an anti-globalist stance.

I said he was a socialist not a liberal.

osmiumartist · 10-12-2016 5:15pm

http://www.rt.com/op-edge/369614-western-media-brexit-russia/
Another Russophobic smear campaign destroyed. I guess it's just easier for people to say "Putin did it" than accept people don't agree with them in an election.

Elmer Blooker · 10-12-2016 6:58pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

http://www.rt.com/op-edge/369614-western-media-brexit-russia/
Another Russophobic smear campaign destroyed. I guess it's just easier for people to say "Putin did it" than accept people don't agree with them in an election.

RT's biggest "crime" is obviously exposing the utter hypocrisy and double standards of mainstream media. No wonder there are calls in certain quarters to have it banned.

The writer, one Caroline Baylon, alleges that RT may have influenced the vote in favour of ‘leave.’ Hilariously, she fails to even mention mainstream UK newspapers like The Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Express and The Sun, all of whom openly campaigned for Brexit and have a far greater reach in Britain than this network.

How do people continuously fall for this formula?

Quoting an unnamed "senior US official", the Washington Post said.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38273933

RandomName2 · 10-12-2016 7:08pm

demfad wrote: »

Yes i am. And white supremacist. Nazi also. The myriad of groups that are supported by Bannon and Putin reflects this range.
E.g The alt-right identarian group in Austria is headed by a former neo-nazi.
We saw Spencer and his 'alt-right' followers recite Hitler in German and use Nazi salutes.
The ultra right are trying to alter the message slightly in order not to alienate as many people, with the odd slip up. Best to call them what they are.

Jesus - looks like someone has to watch Jonathon Pie.

It's people like you who got Trump elected: not mythical bots, fictitious hacks, or conspiracy theories involving Spetnaz troops parachuting into Pennsylvania to alter ballot papers. It wasn't helped by Clinton's failings - but the high handed pseudo liberal filibustering of "everyone who doesn't agree with me is an extremist" would make Cicero's ghost groan for its jingoistic and alienating rhetoric.

But go ahead, call everyone who disagrees with your personal political views Nazis and see how many people you manage to win over. Which is not to say that you won't have many people who support your viewpoint, but it will merely be within an echo chamber.

Gatling · 11-12-2016 12:32am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

RT's biggest "crime" is obviously exposing the utter hypocrisy

How do people continuously fall for this formula

Often wondered why people read and copy and paste from rt while ranting and raving about msm and western media and censorship but cant seem to find the irony or hypocrisy of opinions vs facts .

Something which is always side tracked ( facts )

InTheTrees · 11-12-2016 1:20am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

RT's biggest "crime" is obviously exposing the utter hypocrisy and double standards of mainstream media.

RT is available on most US cable systems.

Sorry to say its MSM as well as all the rest.

:cool:

K-9 · 11-12-2016 11:26am

Mod:

@Elmer and Gatling, either add to the debate or do not post at all. Whinging about RT or msm is not debate and is getting very old. If that means a quiet thread or it has to be closed, sobeit.

demfad · 12-12-2016 2:08pm

Cross party bid to intensify investigation into Russian hacking of US election confirmed.

http://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/mccain-graham-schumer-reed-joint-statement-on-reports-that-russia-interfered-with-the-2016-election

McCain, Graham, Schumer, Reed Joint Statement on Reports That Russia Interfered with the 2016 Election

Sunday, December 11, 2016
Washington, D.C. – U.S. Senators John McCain (R-AZ), Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Member of the Senate Committee on Armed Services, Charles E. Schumer (D-NY), Senate Democratic Leader-elect, and Jack Reed (D-RI), Ranking Member of the Senate Committee on Armed Services released the following joint statement today in response to news reports on the CIA’s analysis of Russian interference with the 2016 election:

“For years, foreign adversaries have directed cyberattacks at America’s physical, economic, and military infrastructure, while stealing our intellectual property. Now our democratic institutions have been targeted. Recent reports of Russian interference in our election should alarm every American.

“Congress’s national security committees have worked diligently to address the complex challenge of cybersecurity, but recent events show that more must be done. While protecting classified material, we have an obligation to inform the public about recent cyberattacks that have cut to the heart of our free society. Democrats and Republicans must work together, and across the jurisdictional lines of the Congress, to examine these recent incidents thoroughly and devise comprehensive solutions to deter and defend against further cyberattacks.

“This cannot become a partisan issue. The stakes are too high for our country. We are committed to working in this bipartisan manner, and we will seek to unify our colleagues around the goal of investigating and stopping the grave threats that cyberattacks conducted by foreign governments pose to our national security.”

johnp001 · 12-12-2016 6:00pm

Former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan on allegations of Russian hacking of U.S. elections yesterday:

Craig Murray wrote:

The CIA’s Absence of Conviction
I have watched incredulous as the CIA’s blatant lie has grown and grown as a media story – blatant because the CIA has made no attempt whatsoever to substantiate it. There is no Russian involvement in the leaks of emails showing Clinton’s corruption. Yes this rubbish has been the lead today in the Washington Post in the US and the Guardian here, and was the lead item on the BBC main news. I suspect it is leading the American broadcasts also.

A little simple logic demolishes the CIA’s claims. The CIA claim they “know the individuals” involved. Yet under Obama the USA has been absolutely ruthless in its persecution of whistleblowers, and its pursuit of foreign hackers through extradition. We are supposed to believe that in the most vital instance imaginable, an attempt by a foreign power to destabilise a US election, even though the CIA knows who the individuals are, nobody is going to be arrested or extradited, or (if in Russia) made subject to yet more banking and other restrictions against Russian individuals? Plainly it stinks. The anonymous source claims of “We know who it was, it was the Russians” are beneath contempt.

As Julian Assange has made crystal clear, the leaks did not come from the Russians. As I have explained countless times, they are not hacks, they are insider leaks – there is a major difference between the two. And it should be said again and again, that if Hillary Clinton had not connived with the DNC to fix the primary schedule to disadvantage Bernie, if she had not received advance notice of live debate questions to use against Bernie, if she had not accepted massive donations to the Clinton foundation and family members in return for foreign policy influence, if she had not failed to distance herself from some very weird and troubling people, then none of this would have happened.

The continued ability of the mainstream media to claim the leaks lost Clinton the election because of “Russia”, while still never acknowledging the truths the leaks reveal, is Kafkaesque.

I had a call from a Guardian journalist this afternoon. The astonishing result was that for three hours, an article was accessible through the Guardian front page which actually included the truth among the CIA hype:
More...

demfad · 12-12-2016 6:33pm

johnp001 wrote: »

Former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan on allegations of Russian hacking of U.S. elections yesterday:

I'm sure there will be a full report when the investigation is concluded and not before:

Russian involvement is not a new or growing story:

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37354768

demfad · 13-12-2016 11:46am

Getting more serious now:

29 of the college electors who will elect the next president have sent an open letter demanding info about Russian interference and Doanld Trump and his teams involvement with Russia including if Donald Trump is currently under investigation by the FBI.

https://extranewsfeed.com/bipartisan-electors-ask-james-clapper-release-facts-on-outside-interference-in-u-s-election-c1a3d11d5b7b#.e7x7bijg5

Additionally, the Electors will separately require from Donald Trump conclusive evidence that he and his staff and advisors did not accept Russian interference, or otherwise collaborate during the campaign, and conclusive disavowal and repudiation of such collaboration and interference going forward.

johnp001 · 13-12-2016 11:55am

VIPS (Binney, Johnson, McGovern etc...) memo on the allegations of Russian hacking of U.S. election (link is to Consortium News article printed yesterday)

Veteran Intelligence Professionals For Sanity wrote:

Allegations of Hacking Election Are Baseless
A New York Times report on Monday alluding to “overwhelming circumstantial evidence” leading the CIA to believe that Russian President Vladimir Putin “deployed computer hackers with the goal of tipping the election to Donald J. Trump” is, sadly, evidence-free. This is no surprise, because harder evidence of a technical nature points to an inside leak, not hacking – by Russians or anyone else.

Monday’s Washington Post reports that Sen. James Lankford, R-Oklahoma, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has joined other senators in calling for a bipartisan investigation of suspected cyber-intrusion by Russia. Reading our short memo could save the Senate from endemic partisanship, expense and unnecessary delay.

In what follows, we draw on decades of senior-level experience – with emphasis on cyber-intelligence and security – to cut through uninformed, largely partisan fog. Far from hiding behind anonymity, we are proud to speak out with the hope of gaining an audience appropriate to what we merit – given our long labors in government and other areas of technology. And corny though it may sound these days, our ethos as intelligence professionals remains, simply, to tell it like it is – without fear or favor.

We have gone through the various claims about hacking. For us, it is child’s play to dismiss them. The email disclosures in question are the result of a leak, not a hack. Here’s the difference between leaking and hacking:

Leak: When someone physically takes data out of an organization and gives it to some other person or organization, as Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning did.

Hack: When someone in a remote location electronically penetrates operating systems, firewalls or any other cyber-protection system and then extracts data.

All signs point to leaking, not hacking. If hacking were involved, the National Security Agency would know it – and know both sender and recipient.

In short, since leaking requires physically removing data – on a thumb drive, for example – the only way such data can be copied and removed, with no electronic trace of what has left the server, is via a physical storage device.
More...

osmiumartist · 13-12-2016 11:42pm

Why is "alt-right" in the thread title? Has somebody claimed they hacked DNC e-mails or is this just an extreme form of Godwin's law?

osmiumartist · 14-12-2016 10:04pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

Why is "alt-right" in the thread title? Has somebody claimed they hacked DNC e-mails or is this just an extreme form of Godwin's law?

Hmmm, my question appears to have murdered the thread!
So we can take it the topic could just as easily be "Russian and Visigothic Interference in democratic elections."?

KingBrian2 · 15-12-2016 12:31am

Will we have more investigations to those members of Congress who benefitted from arms sales to Muslim dictators?

demfad · 15-12-2016 10:52am

osmiumartist wrote: »

Why is "alt-right" in the thread title? Has somebody claimed they hacked DNC e-mails or is this just an extreme form of Godwin's law?

Please read the OP.
The thread title is about 'influencing' rather than hacking and the reasons are set out in the OP.
That would include alt-right real and troll accounts working in conjunction with Russian trolls and bots on twitter in the US election.
That would include the influence of Breitbart and Cambridge analytica (Mercer/Bannon) on the US election and Brexit, moving on to France and Germany.
That would include the alt-right pooling of resources and strategy in Europe and America.
That would include Russian funding of ultra right Euro parties and providing fake news sites and stories for same in order to damage opponents.
A common goal of Russia and the alt-right is the destruction of liberal democracy.
The interference is in order to help achieve this goal.

osmiumartist · 15-12-2016 8:54pm

demfad wrote: »

Please read the OP.
The thread title is about 'influencing' rather than hacking and the reasons are set out in the OP.

[International] Russian and alt-right Interference in democratic elections.

OK, I must need a new monocle here, but please point out the word "influence" for us in that title. Thanks in advance.

Count Dooku · 15-12-2016 11:56pm

demfad wrote: »

Please read the OP.
The thread title is about 'influencing' rather than hacking and the reasons are set out in the OP.
That would include alt-right real and troll accounts working in conjunction with Russian trolls and bots on twitter in the US election.
That would include the influence of Breitbart and Cambridge analytica (Mercer/Bannon) on the US election and Brexit, moving on to France and Germany.
That would include the alt-right pooling of resources and strategy in Europe and America.
That would include Russian funding of ultra right Euro parties and providing fake news sites and stories for same in order to damage opponents.
A common goal of Russia and the alt-right is the destruction of liberal democracy.
The interference is in order to help achieve this goal.

You forgot to include using of Russian brides as tool to influence US elections
Vanity Fair: White Trump Voters Wanted 'Submissive' Russian Women

There are many reasons for this shift—the end of the Cold War, the collapse of American manufacturing, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the election of Barack Obama, China, ISIS, the weakening and decentralization of America’s two-party system—and one reason that Russia would appear a likely benefactor. While Europe has embraced socialists and Muslims, among other groups, Russia appears a final redoubt of white pride. At least, this is how Russia has portrayed itself to, and is viewed by, many on the new American right—the angry horde, the white-nationalist base who wants their country back. There were glimmers of this in the ‘90s and the aughts, when angry, white men flew to Moscow, and then St. Petersburg and Kiev, and then Tomsk and Omsk and Vladivostok, in search of beautiful, Russian women to replace their feminist wives in America. (I wrote a story about these men, “From Russia with Pre-Nup,” for GQ.) What they loved about Russian women, I learned, was not just that they were gorgeous, but rather that they were submissive. They had their values straight. When these men talked about American women, they always sounded bitter. American women didn’t know how to please a man; they didn’t wear makeup; they didn’t cook; they let themselves go. These men came from Arkansas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, and the Central Valley of California, and they had fallen in love with Russia because it was full of pretty white girls who acted the way they thought girls should act.

WinnyThePoo · 16-12-2016 1:28am

osmiumartist wrote: »

[International] Russian and alt-right Interference in democratic elections.

OK, I must need a new monocle here, but please point out the word "influence" for us in that title. Thanks in advance.

eh...

Interfere

Influence

eh...

demfad · 16-12-2016 12:51pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

[International] Russian and alt-right Interference in democratic elections.

OK, I must need a new monocle here, but please point out the word "influence" for us in that title. Thanks in advance.

Yes, my mistake. Interference is what was used and is more accurate. Whats your point? Why the big writing?

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 7:44pm

demfad wrote: »

Yes, my mistake. Interference is what was used and is more accurate. Whats your point? Why the big writing?

What do you mean "what's my point"? I asked in what way the alt-right were interfering with democratic elections. You then told me some nonsense about influencing and you misread the topic title. You still haven't told me how they were interfering.
You could just have admitted you were wrong instead of making some awful attempt at turning the tables here.

Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

Comments