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Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭weisses


    Meanwhile the US interferes in every country in the world.

    How does engaging in whataboutery helps your position or disproves Russian interference ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    weisses wrote: »
    How does engaging in whataboutery helps your position or disproves Russian interference ?

    Its an accusation of bias. And wasn’t the substantive argument.

    What we have after a few years is that a Russian internet firm used multiple accounts on social media to promote both sides. It looks like this was click bait to encourage views on YouTube channels - ie a commercial operation.

    It’s also a form of free speech ( as is Russia Today’s supposed propaganda). How the US expects to prosecute these guys is beyond me even if they were deported. They interfered in the US election by supporting trump on twitter? Or opposing him? Didn’t the majority of US citizens do that? Didn’t plenty of foreigners do that?

    I don’t doubt that the feds will get their man if they were deported, the US federal system has thousands of laws to fall back on (and the ever useful “obstruction of justice”) and is in fact an authoritarian society, particularly at federal level. Look at Martha Stewart.

    However this indictment and the laws against RT are further erosions of free speech there.

    As for the hysteria - anyone remember when we had definite violations of the Logan Act? Not seeing those inditements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭weisses


    What we have after a few years is that a Russian internet firm used multiple accounts on social media to promote both sides. It looks like this was click bait to encourage views on YouTube channels - ie a commercial operation.

    Do you believe that is all that is going on RE Russian interference ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    weisses wrote: »
    Do you believe that is all that is going on RE Russian interference ?

    Yes. It’s all that’s been proven.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Yes. It’s all that’s been proven.

    OK lets look at the indictments first. Papadoupolus was indicted for lying to the FBI. He denied that Russian agents had contacted him to t him that hey had 10'000s of emails hacked from the DNC server/Podesta and were looking for a quid pro quo with the Team campaign team. Papadoupolus plea bargained so we can assume that Mueller wants to reveal the absolute minimum.

    We know that the campaign sanctioned his trip to meet these Russian agents, and it can be inferred that several other people in the campaign knew this. We don't know who else in the campaign team were interviewed by Mueller before Papadoupolus's indictment was publicly known. We con't know if they came clean and cooperated with Mueller or lied to him and are also facing indictment.

    We know that Manafort is being indicted for multiple counts of money laundering and financial crimes as well as conspiracy against the US. We know that some of these crimes occurred during the campaign.
    We know Gates faced similar legal jeopardy but is now cooperating with Mueller.
    Anybody that lied/will lie to the FBI regarding the information that Gates will give Mueller is in legal jeopardy. A Lawyer, son of a Ukranian oligarch did this and was indicted.

    We know Manafort worked to elect Yanukovitz in the Ukraine election. We know he was paid to the value of 10s millions for this work. We know also that Putin's right hand man Deprisaska was behind the payments to Manafort. It was reported by several reputable journalists that Deprisaska had an agreement with Manafort where Manafort would promote Russian interests in the west. His indictment mentions that he paid the 'Hapsburg group' (Former Italian PM Romano Prodi, a Former Austrian Chanceller, amonst others, to talk down the Crimean annexation and Ukranian invasion in the US.

    Gates was Manaforts right hand man for decades. Gates knew what Manafort knew. We can assume that Federal grand jury's now also knew.

    The Internet Research Agency indictments reveal a massive information operation during teh US election. They had a seperate division set up for the US election with over 100 people including a data analytics department.
    The budget for this department was $1.5 million dollars per week for staffing etc. On top of that they bought several million worth of hardware in the US in other to hide trolls behind VPNs. Via social media they set up rallies and protests around the US, usually pro Trump but sometimes on both sides to help create division. They spend vast money to interfere in the US election, they covered it up, committed fraud and stole identities.

    Anyone who helped them with this will be in legal jeopardy, anyone who lied about this will be indicted.

    What else is known?

    Manafort, Kushner, Don Jr met with known Russian agents in Trump tower to discuss a quid pro quo with Russian dirt on Hillary for dropping sanctions. Don's emails shows he was very keen on the idea (I love it). THis ties in with the Papadoupolus indictment.
    We know the Trump campaign changed the Russia position at the RNC watering action against Russia down. We know Trump oenly started advocating for making amends with Russia, dropping sanctions.

    Sessions, Kushner etc lied about several meetings with former Russian ambassador to US Kysliak.
    Kysliak was smuggled into Trump tower for one of these meetings. Gorgov head of Kremlin bank Vnesheconombank was also smuggle in for a Kushner meeting.
    We know Kushner tried to set up a back channel between the Kremlin and the Trump campaign.
    We know a man called Nader is coperating with Mueller. He was at a backchannel meeting between Erik Prince (Trump campaign, brotehr of Betsy Devos. and a Russia representative of the Kremlin in the Seychelles.

    We know Trump created a deal for a Moscow Trump tower in 2013.
    We know that this only fell through after his presidency.

    Lets leave it there. There is loads more. We haven't even looked at how much of the Steele dossier has been corroborated. Trump foreign policy advisor Carter Page's FISA warrants since 2013. His trips to meet the Russian Official in charge of the US election in Moscow.

    Any questions or dispersions please refer to the specific point I made.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭weisses


    Yes. It’s all that’s been proven.

    Google cozy bear ..... Its entertaining and it paints a different picture

    Or you could cover your ears and start yelling .....No proof No proof ...Its a bit of a weak defense at this stage tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    Good entertaining article on fivethirtyeight around this topic:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-russia-could-steal-the-midterms/

    Its written more as a political thriller, but based on informed opinion


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,469 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Milo Yiannopoulos is complaining that he got himself de-platformed (banned) from his speaking events on Facebook recently.

    https://mashable.com/2018/08/27/milo-yiannopoulos-deplatforming-alex-jones/?europe=true&utm_cid=a-rr-culture#r9oDJ99jwOqs


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/eu-disinformation-war-russia-fake-news
    “Disinformation is part of Russian military doctrine and its strategy to divide and weaken the west. Russia spends €1.1bn a year on pro-Kremlin media. You will also have heard of the ‘troll factory’ based in St Petersburg and the bot armies.”

    The commission said it would set up a rapid alert system to help EU member states recognise disinformation campaigns, and increase the budget set aside for the detection of disinformation from £1.69m to £4.4m (€5m). It will also press technology companies to play their part in cracking down on fake news.

    Major social media platforms have already signed up to a code of conduct, but they were told by the British security commissioner, Julian King, to “get serious” on living up to their commitments. He said the EU would not stand for “an internet that is the wild west, where anything goes”.

    This is welcome news but it will need to be stepped up even more with Regulation needed on social media.
    Disinformation in the East of Europe is most severe and in Ukraine.
    We are learning every day that Brexit was almost certainly decided by the Russian/Russian related active measures there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    demfad wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/eu-disinformation-war-russia-fake-news



    This is welcome news but it will need to be stepped up even more with Regulation needed on social media.
    Disinformation in the East of Europe is most severe and in Ukraine.
    We are learning every day that Brexit was almost certainly decided by the Russian/Russian related active measures there.

    You are just sipping up the deep state kool aid.

    Nobody is controlling any democracy via twitter or Facebook. There are foreign countries who have huge influence on the US, Israel and Saudi for instance but that’s direct campaigning, campaign money and think thanks.

    And of course the US interferes everywhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    You are just sipping up the deep state kool aid.

    Nobody is controlling any democracy via twitter or Facebook. There are foreign countries who have huge influence on the US, Israel and Saudi for instance but that’s direct campaigning, campaign money and think thanks.

    And of course the US interferes everywhere.

    I'm not sure what point it is that you'e trying to make here. Is it that the Russians aren't participating in information warfare in an attempt to influence elections abroad? Or is it that the US does it so it's OK?

    Whatever it is, I wasn't expecting much when I read a phrase like "deep state koolaid".


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