Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

seamus

Mr.Micro wrote: »

As an aside, the irony of the US outrage at the alleged interference by Russia in its affairs. What has the US done/ does in dozens of countries around the globe, interfere often against democracy, in South America, Middle East etc. Oh the irony.

I think it's embarrassment as much as outrage. The US, UK & Germany have believed themselves to be the world leaders in intelligence operations for decades.
And their interference in foreign policy more overt - remove leaders by force and place in puppets.

The fact that Russia has clearly been strongly influencing US politics to the point of potentially swaying the presidential election - considered by many in the US to be the pinnacle of democracy - is incredibly embarrassing.

And made all the more embarrassing by the president-elect saying "nothing to see here folks, not that big a deal, don't worry about it". The President of the US should be all over any such allegations, not arguing in public that the Russians are great and the FBI are wrong.

The EU has realised that Russian interference is likely taking place here too, and ultimately everyone has been caught with their pants down. Russia was the butt of the joke for twenty years; crumbling infrastructure, outdated technology. That they might be running rings around everyone in the intelligence and propaganda game is pretty embarrassing.

ligerdub

seamus wrote: »

Ah, but they're not the original source.

Yes, the veracity of these claims is very suspect, and the source documentation is unverified.

But it would be a mistake to say, "these allegations are false because buzzfeed reported them" - you need to go back to the original source.

It's also important, as others have pointed out, that we don't dismiss an entire dossier because one stupid site decided to print the most salacious parts.

This kind of information gathering exercise gathers absolutely everything, from hard photos and documents, to something some guy said in a bar that was overheard. It's up to the intelligence agents to sift through it and pull out the most useful information.

Buzzfeed have unintentionally thrown Trump a gimme with this one. That dossier may be chocked full of useful information, but they've managed to call the whole thing into question by jumping the gun.

Fair assertions but that's not quite what I said.

Although Buzzfeed are an entirely non-credible organisation or source, it doesn't necessarily make it bollox. This story though has come to the fore to be the equivalent of the news version of money laundering by layering. It has come through the pipeline by multiple sources that the headline conduit - CNN- can claim deniability but still get the clicks and viewers. It's entirely low grade journalism, and just another sign that their credibility is in tatters.
They don't really care if it's true or not, merely if it will get viewers and passes at least some level of arse covering.

Mr.Micro

seamus wrote: »

I think it's embarrassment as much as outrage. The US, UK & Germany have believed themselves to be the world leaders in intelligence operations for decades.
And their interference in foreign policy more overt - remove leaders by force and place in puppets.

The fact that Russia has clearly been strongly influencing US politics to the point of potentially swaying the presidential election - considered by many in the US to be the pinnacle of democracy - is incredibly embarrassing.

And made all the more embarrassing by the president-elect saying "nothing to see here folks, not that big a deal, don't worry about it". The President of the US should be all over any such allegations, not arguing in public that the Russians are great and the FBI are wrong.

The EU has realised that Russian interference is likely taking place here too, and ultimately everyone has been caught with their pants down. Russia was the butt of the joke for twenty years; crumbling infrastructure, outdated technology. That they might be running rings around everyone in the intelligence and propaganda game is pretty embarrassing.

Agreed. Whatever else Trump is, I will bet he is a pragmatist. He is not going to worry about little things like morals, or how he may have been helped in to office. He will take it and he did. He has an air of a dictator about him, not used to debate, but one way traffic, his way.

Count Dooku

seamus wrote: »

Because clearing out government agencies to ensure that everyone was a pro-leader automaton is something that Nazi Germany wouldn't have done?

Do you mean government agencies should rule countries themselves?
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/818953132520640520

demfad

A lot of misinformation coming through on this thread now.
The FBI had them in the summer. John McCain only received them Via an approach from the former British ambassador to Russia in November.
Ludicrous to claim its a feud between McCain and Trump.

This is the route that the documents took to being released.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/11/trump-russia-report-opposition-research-john-mccain

demfad

Corroborating evidence of Kompromat from Moscow and St Petersburg as well as an audio about Russia collaboration with trump campaign.
This is from Paul Wood a respected BBC correspondent on Russia over many decades.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

And the former MI6 agent is not the only source for the claim about Russian kompromat on the president-elect. Back in August, a retired spy told me he had been informed of its existence by "the head of an East European intelligence agency".
Later, I used an intermediary to pass some questions to active duty CIA officers dealing with the case file - they would not speak to me directly. I got a message back that there was "more than one tape", "audio and video", on "more than one date", in "more than one place" - in the Ritz-Carlton in Moscow and also in St Petersburg - and that the material was "of a sexual nature".
The claims of Russian kompromat on Mr Trump were "credible", the CIA believed. That is why - according to the New York Times and Washington Post - these claims ended up on President Barack Obama's desk last week, a briefing document also given to Congressional leaders and to Mr Trump himself.

Last April, the CIA director was shown intelligence that worried him. It was - allegedly - a tape recording of a conversation about money from the Kremlin going into the US presidential campaign.
It was passed to the US by an intelligence agency of one of the Baltic States. The CIA cannot act domestically against American citizens so a joint counter-intelligence taskforce was created.

seamus

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean government agencies should rule countries themselves?
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/818953132520640520

Government agencies do run countries. They take guidance and direction from the elected officials, but for the most part operate autonomously. And they should, otherwise you'd get nothing done.

Both the elected officials and the government agencies should constantly cross-check eachother to ensure that neither is acting outside of their power. An elected official who "clears out" a government agency to put in their own stooges, is just as dangerous as a government agency that dethrones an elected official.

Who is David Frum, and what's his source for that "message" from the CIA?

Anyone can post anything on twitter for someone else to quote.

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

Corroborating evidence of Kompromat from Moscow and St Petersburg as well as an audio about Russia collaboration with trump campaign.
This is from Paul Wood a respected BBC correspondent on Russia over many decades.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

I almost fell asleep half way through that! It's like something from a crappy spy novel that's sold in airport departures.

One Russian specialist told me ....

So it's "specialist" now is it? Whatever happened to the old reliables like "a reliable source" or an "insider" ....

Billy86

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I almost fell asleep half way through that! It's like something from a crappy spy novel that's sold in airport departures.

So it's "specialist" now is it? Whatever happened to the old reliables like "a reliable source" or an "insider" ....

Would it be preferable if it were a youtube video, possibly with a montage and car chase scene?

demfad

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I almost fell asleep half way through that! It's like something from a crappy spy novel that's sold in airport departures.

You should try and pay more attention.

So it's "specialist" now is it? Whatever happened to the old reliables like "a reliable source" or an "insider" ....

Just to give you a heads up on how 'specialist' the retired MI6 spy was that compiled the dossier:

He was the case officer for Litvinenko, notoriously poisoned in a Putin hit.
[URL="BIG: Trump-Russia dossier author was case officer for Litvinenko, notoriously poisoned in Putin hit per UK inquiry"]BIG: Trump-Russia dossier author was case officer for Litvinenko, notoriously poisoned in Putin hit per UK inquiry[/URL]

That probably sounds like a crappy spy novel to you also: apologies if so.

ligerdub

How much was he paid for that I wonder.

CMOTDibbler

ligerdub wrote: »

How much was he paid for that I wonder.

A hell of a lot I'd imagne. Have you seen where his office is?

demfad

Getting heavy now:

This morning (US time), All house representatives were given a briefing on what Obama/Trump got last week. Before it, Democrats insisted that FBI Chief Comey admit that there is an Investigation into Trump and his associates and release the evidence to the relavent Reps as was done for Senator Clinton email.
https://democrats-judiciary.house.gov/news/press-releases/ahead-classified-briefing-russian-hacking-house-judiciary-dems-press-comey

Now EVERY DEMOCRAT knows what was in that report. Some were visibly shook after the hearing apparently.....leaky leaky

Gatling

demfad wrote: »

Getting heavy now:

This morning (US time), All house representatives were given a briefing on what Obama/Trump got last week. Before it, Democrats insisted that FBI Chief Comey admit that there is an Investigation into Trump and his associates and release the evidence to the relavent Reps as was done for Senator Clinton email.
https://democrats-judiciary.house.gov/news/press-releases/ahead-classified-briefing-russian-hacking-house-judiciary-dems-press-comey

Now EVERY DEMOCRAT knows what was in that report. Some were visibly shook after the hearing apparently.....leaky leaky

Had a feeling there's more to come from this ,
But could we actually see action against him before he takes office

Kitsunegari

I'm still waiting to hear how Russia actually interfered in the US election. Did they actually make Americans vote for Trump?

CMOTDibbler

Gatling wrote: »

Had a feeling there's more to come from this ,
But could we actually see action against him before he takes office

Does it matter?

The possibility (however remote) that the election to the most powerful office in the world (allegedly) has been influenced by a foreign power, has to be hugely embarrassing. And not a little frightening for many.

The very notion must have Putin chuckling into his cornflakes every morning.

Kitsunegari

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Does it matter?

The possibility (however remote) that the election to the most powerful office in the world (allegedly) has been influenced by a foreign power, has to be hugely embarrassing. And not a little frightening for many.

The very notion must have Putin chuckling into his cornflakes every morning.

The only attack on democracy I see is the failure of the democrats to accept the result of a democratic election because they don't like the result.

Embarrassing times for American politics indeed.

CMOTDibbler

Kitsunegari wrote: »

The only attack on democracy I see is the failure of the democrats to accept the result of a democratic election because they don't like the result.

Embarrassing times for American politics indeed.

Not what I said. 'Attack on democracy' are your words, not mine. Please don't try and misrepresent me.

You just look foolish.

Count Dooku

seamus wrote: »

Who is David Frum

David J. Frum (/ˈfrʌm/; born June 30, 1960) is a Canadian-American neoconservative[3] political commentator. A speechwriter for President George W. Bush, Frum later became the author of the first "insider" book about the Bush presidency.[4] He is a senior editor at The Atlantic and also a CNN contributor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frum

ligerdub

The Russian hacking claims are pathetic face saving tactics used by the Democrats who can't stand the fact that their shoe horned candidate lost to a man as boorish and uncouth as Donald Trump.

Kitsunegari

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not what I said. 'Attack on democracy' are your words, not mine. Please don't try and misrepresent me.

You just look foolish.

Not sure what exactly you're getting worked up over. I didn't say that you stated anything.

No need for the petty insults either.

CMOTDibbler

ligerdub wrote: »

The Russian hacking claims are pathetic face saving tactics used by the Democrats who can't stand the fact that their shoe horned candidate lost to a man as boorish and uncouth as Donald Trump.

Yeah, you've got to hand it to the Democrats to get all that in place in such a short time.

Getting John McCain on board so quickly too. They must have known they were going to lose a long time ago.

CMOTDibbler

Kitsunegari wrote: »

Not sure what exactly you're getting worked up over. I didn't say that you stated anything.

No need for the petty insults either.

Actually not worth a reply.

Gatling

ligerdub wrote: »

The Russian hacking claims are pathetic face saving tactics used by the Democrats who can't stand the fact that their shoe horned candidate lost to a man as boorish and uncouth as Donald Trump.

Constantly denying it or saying it's the democrats won't make it true ,
No matter what you think this has putin written all over it ,
Trump is saying let's cosy up to Russia and some of his cabinet are saying the polar opposite seems he's thin ice before he takes office ,and that's without the current leaks with likely more to come

Mr.Micro

Gatling wrote: »

Constantly denying it or saying it's the democrats won't make it true ,
No matter what you think this has putin written all over it ,
Trump is saying let's cosy up to Russia and some of his cabinet are saying the polar opposite seems he's thin ice before he takes office ,and that's without the current leaks with likely more to come

It's some start before he even gets into office. I find it surprising that people will not accept that there is a huge possibility that the Russians were involved. Hacks are common place, all the big companies have been hacked, so why is it impossible to believe that the election was immune to such an attack. Not sure any leaks will affect Trump, as people know who they voted for. It would be more surprising if it was leaked "Trump is really a nice guy" lol.

KingBrian2

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It's some start before he even gets into office. I find it surprising that people will not accept that there is a huge possibility that the Russians were involved. Hacks are common place, all the big companies have been hacked, so why is it impossible to believe that the election was immune to such an attack. Not sure any leaks will affect Trump, as people know who they voted for. It would be more surprising if it was leaked "Trump is really a nice guy" lol.

The Russians are coming under the spotlight when the hackers could have been Chinese or Iranians. Hacking is a serious offense but to target Russia and not more specifically any organisation that sought to benefit from Trump being elected. That is a core problem with attacking Russia.

ligerdub

Gatling wrote: »

Constantly denying it or saying it's the democrats won't make it true ,
No matter what you think this has putin written all over it ,
Trump is saying let's cosy up to Russia and some of his cabinet are saying the polar opposite seems he's thin ice before he takes office ,and that's without the current leaks with likely more to come

It won't make the hacking claims true either. Even if it were it doesn't make it true that 1) Trump was aware of and encouraged it, 2) that it had any impact on the outcome.

Godspeed.

Jimoslimos

ligerdub wrote: »

It won't make the hacking claims true either. Even if it were it doesn't make it true that 1) Trump was aware of and encouraged it, 2) that it had any impact on the outcome.

Godspeed.

1) Trump DID publicly encourage hacking though. Whether he was aware of the Russians involvement is another thing. Certainly if the IR is to be believed Trump appears wise enough to have avoided direct bribes and acted through intermediaries where possible, maintaining an air of plausible deniability/ignorance.

2) It is unlikely that Watergate had any impact on the result of Nixon's re-election. Does this mean it was right or that he shouldn't have resigned/been impeached?

ligerdub

Jimoslimos wrote: »

1) Trump DID publicly encourage hacking though. Whether he was aware of the Russians involvement is another thing. Certainly if the IR is to be believed Trump appears wise enough to have avoided direct bribes and acted through intermediaries where possible, maintaining an air of plausible deniability/ignorance.

2) It is unlikely that Watergate had any impact on the result of Nixon's re-election. Does this mean it was right or that he shouldn't have resigned/been impeached?

This will entirely blow over when it inevitably turns out to be hollow and mostly false claims. That's just my opinion, and I'm sure we differ, so I'll just leave it there.

rossie1977

Kitsunegari wrote: »

The only attack on democracy I see is the failure of the democrats to accept the result of a democratic election because they don't like the result.

Embarrassing times for American politics indeed.

Yes I am sure if boot was on the other foot and it was discovered that the Russians released Republican info in order to get Hillary elected I am sure everyone on the right would have been fine with it..

In fact I can't imagine how bad of a situation the us would find itself had that happened. At best the Republicans would as one not accept the presidential result and the country would be without a leader for 4 years or at worst there would be civil war