Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 7:47pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

eh...

Interfere

Influence

eh...

Interfere and influence are the same thing now... right. Every American and half the world "influenced" the US election. You're telling me they all "interfered"?
Influencing children v interfering with children? No difference?

WinnyThePoo · 16-12-2016 8:42pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

Interfere and influence are the same thing now... right. Every American and half the world "influenced" the US election. You're telling me they all "interfered"?
Influencing children v interfering with children? No difference?

You know what the thread is about. You are trying to argue over the thread title as a deflection.

You are not making any sense now.

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 8:51pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You know what the thread is about. You are trying to argue over the thread title as a deflection.

You are not making any sense now.

You're telling me "influence" and "interfere" are the same thing and I'm not making any sense?
Go on then. Tell me how the alt-right "interfered" with the elections. Please. Otherwise you're off topic as that the title of this thread.

WinnyThePoo · 16-12-2016 8:59pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

You're telling me "influence" and "interfere" are the same thing and I'm not making any sense?
Go on then. Tell me how the alt-right "interfered" with the elections. Please. Otherwise you're off topic as that the title of this thread.

Your making less sense now.

Also your the person pulling the this off topic.

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 9:04pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Your making less sense now.

Also your the person pulling the this off topic.

The topic is "Russian and alt-right interference".
You are telling me about "influence". Are you saying interference and influence are the same thing? Can you please just say so if you believe that?
If they aren't (they aren't) they YOU are off topic.
Funny how when people can't form a logical argument around here the default is "you're not making any sense...". It'd almost a reflex at this stage.

WinnyThePoo · 16-12-2016 9:25pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

The topic is "Russian and alt-right interference".
You are telling me about "influence". Are you saying interference and influence are the same thing? Can you please just say so if you believe that?
If they aren't (they aren't) they YOU are off topic.
Funny how when people can't form a logical argument around here the default is "you're not making any sense...". It'd almost a reflex at this stage.

You are making no sense . You know what the thread is about. You are deflecting .

What has you so hyped up about the words Influence and Interfere?.

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 9:30pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You are making no sense . You know what the thread is about. You are deflecting .

What has you so hyped up about the words Influence and Interfere?.

Because the thread is asking about "alt-right interference" and as yet (you included now) not one person has managed to present even one tiny snippet of half baked evidence to back this up. The title may as well be "Russian and late 18th century Bavarian hatmakers Interference in democratic elections."
Why are you so upset about being asked to stay on topic?

Yourself isit · 16-12-2016 9:36pm

Given the alt right exist in the US I can't see now they couldn't influence the election.

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 9:40pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

Given the alt right exist in the US I can't see now they couldn't influence the election.

I've already said that everybody influenced it!
Now, did they "interfere" in it as per the thread title? How exactly did they undermine US democracy itself?

K-9 · 16-12-2016 10:18pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

The topic is "Russian and alt-right interference".
You are telling me about "influence". Are you saying interference and influence are the same thing? Can you please just say so if you believe that?
If they aren't (they aren't) they YOU are off topic.
Funny how when people can't form a logical argument around here the default is "you're not making any sense...". It'd almost a reflex at this stage.

Mod:
Leave the modding to the mods, thank you.

I'd suggest looking up fallacy, fallacy. Stating something doesn't make logical sense without saying why is actually a logical fallacy itself. It's just a fancy way of saying "you are wrong".

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Good podcast on it here:
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/01/22/yanss-067-the-fallacy-fallacy/

osmiumartist · 16-12-2016 10:31pm

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:
Leave the modding to the mods, thank you.

I'd suggest looking up fallacy, fallacy. Stating something doesn't make logical sense without saying why is actually a logical fallacy itself. It's just a fancy way of saying "you are wrong".

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Good podcast on it here:
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2016/01/22/yanss-067-the-fallacy-fallacy/

Where does the mod message end here or is there a mod warning for every time you see what you perceive as a logical fallacy?

K-9 · 16-12-2016 10:38pm

osmiumartist wrote: »

Where does the mod message end here or is there a mod warning for every time you see what you perceive as a logical fallacy?

That would be a bit silly as everybody commits logical fallacies.

KingBrian2 · 17-12-2016 12:02am

Was not just the Alt Right that voted for Trump many non rightists voted for him too. Disaffected people with no party affiliations.

Yourself isit · 17-12-2016 1:45am

osmiumartist wrote: »

I've already said that everybody influenced it!
Now, did they "interfere" in it as per the thread title? How exactly did they undermine US democracy itself?

Im agreeing with you.

demfad · 22-12-2016 2:50pm

Good article on how Russian disinformation influenced the US body politic since 2014. http://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

InTheTrees · 22-12-2016 7:16pm

Global Affairs Council poll today has Americans negative view of Russia back at cold war levels.

realitykeeper · 22-12-2016 7:36pm

I think Donald Trump wants to resume the goodwill that existed between Russia and the west, in the brief period between the cold war and the resumption of historic suspicions. If so, that would be great. After all, the only reason those historic suspicions were kept alive was because some bored civil servants on Capitol Hill were afraid of being consigned to the dustbin of history along with the belligerence that kept them in a job. I think the British agent M in the recent Bond movies showed an attitude that accurately portrays such individuals in real life. This is the line: "(blasphemy) ..... I miss the cold war."

demfad · 23-12-2016 10:45am

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think Donald Trump wants to resume the goodwill that existed between Russia and the west, in the brief period between the cold war and the resumption of historic suspicions. If so, that would be great. After all, the only reason those historic suspicions were kept alive was because some bored civil servants on Capitol Hill were afraid of being consigned to the dustbin of history along with the belligerence that kept them in a job. I think the British agent M in the recent Bond movies showed an attitude that accurately portrays such individuals in real life. This is the line: "(blasphemy) ..... I miss the cold war."

I think the Russian sustained cyber attack on the American body politic since 2014 at least may have something to do with it (link in post 66)

realitykeeper · 23-12-2016 11:42pm

demfad wrote: »

I think the Russian sustained cyber attack on the American body politic since 2014 at least may have something to do with it (link in post 66)

Even if that were so, the west has been trying to pick a fight with Russia for decades.

RDM_83 again · 24-12-2016 1:41am

demfad wrote: »

I think the Russian sustained cyber attack on the American body politic since 2014 at least may have something to do with it (link in post 66)

Couldn't it very reasonably be argued that the Russians have been acting in response to the huge build up and emplacement of American Cyber War/Surveillance.
The Equation Group which is likely a US intelligence front, deployed Stuxnet in 2010 which targeted a foreign companies equipment.
The use of PRISM (what snowden revealed)

And as the Shadow Brokers (Russian Intelligence front) revealed that the Americans have known about exploits in one of the biggest american hardware manufacturers (Cisco) and not informed the company.

Basically my view is that its not simply one side escalating things, for a non digital intervention the funding and support for both revolutions in Ukraine e.g the Orange Revolution and Euromaidan.

Neither side is saints here or respecting the others integrity, its unfortunate but one can hope that with Trump's coming to power maybe things will calm down a bit, they will likely escalate in china but that should have less negative impact on Europe.
By the way if this is considered as a Pro-Trump, Pro-Putin consider that Nord Stream 2 still has support from Germany so its not like we can't normalize things with Russia if its in our interests.

SILVAMAN · 06-01-2017 11:10pm

Just published by the The Office of the Director of National Intelligence

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html

Trump grudgingly accepting it might be true.

Professor Moriarty · 06-01-2017 11:14pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Just published by the The Office of the Director of National Intelligence

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html

Trump grudgingly accepting it might be true.

Flipflopping like a dying mackerel. Expect more of the same from the bigly huuuge Precedent of the United States of America.

johnp001 · 07-01-2017 1:02pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Just published by the The Office of the Director of National Intelligence

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html

Trump grudgingly accepting it might be true.

Could you point to the reference of the grudging acceptance within that 25 page document? I read Trump's latest statement as printed in the nyt and it didn't seem to indicate any change of his position based on the briefing.

demfad · 09-01-2017 12:16pm

johnp001 wrote: »

Could you point to the reference of the grudging acceptance within that 25 page document? I read Trump's latest statement as printed in the nyt and it didn't seem to indicate any change of his position based on the briefing.

Trump said that report showed The RNC wasn't hacked and that the hack had no effect on the election outcome. Both lies. The report consludes with high confidence that RNC servers were also hacked. The report categorically states that they did not investigate how the interference affected the election. If they did they would have noted that Trump mentioned the Wikileaks over 140 times in the last month before the election.

Edit: Also, Priubus claiming to speak for Trump says that he (Trump) accepted that Russia was involved in this particular occasion. It seems Trump or his team (Kelly Anne Conway on Saturday) will not say the words that Russia was behind the hacking.

recedite · 09-01-2017 2:36pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Just published by the The Office of the Director of National Intelligence

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html

Trump grudgingly accepting it might be true.

Seems to be mostly a rant against RT's growing market share in USA and UK, combined with the fairly obvious observation that Putin preferred Trump over Clinton.

On the alleged electoral interference the report thinks Russian actors "obtained access to state or local electoral boards" but not systems "involved in vote tallying". Not much detail there, but presumably that means they think RT and/or Putin were monitoring the election results as they came in.

Gatling · 09-01-2017 2:39pm

recedite wrote: »

Seems to be mostly a rant against RT's growing market share in USA and UK,

What growing market is that

recedite · 09-01-2017 3:10pm

Gatling wrote: »

What growing market is that

Mostly You Tube views and the like. They have gathered loads of stats for the report.
Mind you, its not exactly rocket science reading off the number of "views" on a You Tube video.
I suppose the NSA CIA and FBI were a bit short of concrete facts and figures for the report though, so it all helps.

WinnyThePoo · 09-01-2017 3:22pm

recedite wrote: »

Mostly You Tube views and the like. They have gathered loads of stats for the report.
Mind you, its not exactly rocket science reading off the number of "views" on a You Tube video.
I suppose the NSA CIA and FBI were a bit short of concrete facts and figures for the report though, so it all helps.

To be fair I've seen friends on Facebook posting Russia today videos, taking the Piss out of them.

They have diffently got more traffic.

Gatling · 09-01-2017 8:54pm

recedite wrote: »

Mostly You Tube views and the like.

Market share in YouTube videos views strangest thing I've read in a while .

recedite · 09-01-2017 9:46pm

Its a strange report.

mbur · 10-01-2017 2:53am

recedite wrote: »

Its a strange report.

But it has a purpose and it is nothing to do with Russia.

http://blackagendareport.com/node/5501

Count Dooku · 10-01-2017 11:29pm

SILVAMAN wrote: »

Just published by the The Office of the Director of National Intelligence

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html

Trump grudgingly accepting it might be true.

The only question remains why DNC denied FBI direct access to servers and preferred to pass investigation to private company
https://twitter.com/Pamela_Moore13/status/818920115353874432

Billy86 · 11-01-2017 1:25am

So, this just happened... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

Shane St. · 11-01-2017 1:26am

Is this real life? LOL

gitzy16v · 11-01-2017 1:26am

Billy86 wrote: »

So, this just happened... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

Whats that

ligerdub · 11-01-2017 1:29am

Billy86 wrote: »

So, this just happened... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

Except it almost certainly didn't.

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 1:54am

Billy86 wrote: »

So, this just happened... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5n8yhi/4chan_may_have_pulled_the_biggest_media_troll_of/

Bit confused, why are 4chan taking credit for this?

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 1:55am

So apparently 4chan created the document and CNN published it.

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 2:16am

So after digging a bit it seems 4chan created the document, gave it to buzzfeed as a top informer/source, then buzzfeed published it and other media like CNN have ran with it.

No confirmation though, but you've have to assume stuff like below is a pisstake.

https://i.sli.mg/GCn6HC.jpg

Does anyone have a link to a Government official or some other source confirming it's real? Part of me is still concerned it might be true so just want to be sure.

https://i.sli.mg/3UN0TD.png < 4chan claim of what happened.

gitzy16v · 11-01-2017 2:18am

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

So after digging a bit it seems 4chan created the document, gave it to buzzfeed as a top informer/source, then buzzfeed published it and other media like CNN have ran with it.

No confirmation though, but you've have to assume stuff like below is a pisstake.

https://i.sli.mg/GCn6HC.jpg

Does anyone have a link to a Government official or some other source confirming it's real? Part of me is still concerned it might be true so just want to be sure.

Ah,thats nuts...hentai...japanese cartoon porn...wtf,its just getting silly now

Billy86 · 11-01-2017 2:25am

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

So apparently 4chan created the document and CNN published it.

Which makes it curious how John McCain apparently was the one to obtain it and give it to James Comey over a month ago - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

Who knows at this point if it's true or not, but it certainly is a new level of absurdity!

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 2:26am

Billy86 wrote: »

Which makes it curious how John McCain apparently was the one to obtain it and give it to James Comey over a month ago - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

Who knows at this point if it's true or not, but it certainly is a new level of absurdity!

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/95568919/#95571329

Timeline checks out.

Billy86 · 11-01-2017 2:31am

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/95568919/#95571329

Timeline checks out.

It seems from those posts (the one linked and the responses) that story broke November 1st? Got to admit that's confusing, or did someone just heavily hint at it or something or the likes? Sorry but I'm useless at navigating the 4chan layout so a little lost on this one!

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 2:38am

Billy86 wrote: »

It seems from those posts (the one linked and the responses) that story broke November 1st? Got to admit that's confusing, or did someone just heavily hint at it or something or the likes? Sorry but I'm useless at navigating the 4chan layout so a little lost on this one!

From the 4chan link it was sent to this guy. The story was apparently made up by people on 4chan.

https://sli.mg/xZjbwd

He's the one who handed it to the CIA

I don't know for sure either, but given all the hentai stuff you have to assume it's bs.

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 2:42am

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/818992803829137408

Il Fascista · 11-01-2017 3:17am

At least an event like this shows us just how bad a lot of these news sources are.

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 3:24am

Yeah I dunno, if it's fake and the media and "intelligence" agencies fell for 4chan trolling and used it in an official report on Russia then it's insane. They'd have lost all credibility.

Still waiting for retractions and apologies before 100% believing it's fake. It might just be the internet deflecting it.

BabyCheeses · 11-01-2017 3:28am

Where in the documents does it mention the Hentai thing? This is what I found of the documents and they don't go up to 14.

documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

Hank Scorpio · 11-01-2017 3:35am

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Where in the documents does it mention the Hentai thing? This is what I found of the documents and they don't go up to 14.

documentcloud.org/documents/3259984-Trump-Intelligence-Allegations.html

You're right, people were spreading that but it turns out not to be in the document, which makes me sway more away from it being fake. If there was hentai you could auto assume it was 4chan.

I don't know what to think now.

Trump's travel records would disprove everything if needs be.

BabyCheeses · 11-01-2017 3:43am

Considering the picture is from an image hosting site popular with Trump supporters I would be even more skeptical of it. The hentai thing went a bit too far but one of the guys involved is meant to be former M16 who worked with Russia, if true, I find it hard to believe he would be tricked by Trump supporters but can deal with Russia.

Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

Comments