SFC Final Replay - Dublin v Mayo Sat 1st October Read Mod Note Post #1

Dyr · 03-10-2016 11:39am

Deliberately pulled his man down, carta dubh all day.

The Talking Bread · 03-10-2016 11:50am

jive wrote: »

There's a lot of truth in this. Easy to say it was a 1 point game and blame it on Hennelly. Sure, he didn't help, but I think Dublin are long enough in the tooth to know when to stop just running full tilt at teams and putting scores on the board (lord knows they get enough chances to do that against the lesser teams for most of the year).

then why weren't they smart enough to avoid giving away a 3 point lead in the last minute of normal time at the replay or on Saturday with regard almost letting a two point lead deep into injury time ascend into a draw with a free just tailing wide.

Yes, Dublin have a great lot of resilience, and are good at slowing down the tempo but they did (in the first game) and then almost did gain (in the second game) let Mayo back into it. If that score had tailed between the post, would you have been saying the same?

I amn't saying its luck or coincidence or anything like that but you can't deny that concession of three points at the death in the first game and the situation wherein COC was given a scoreable (by his standards) free which on another day was over.

Last year, 6 points up with 6 minutes to go against Mayo, Mayo take it to a replay

I think the truth is they are better at getting themselves into these positions where they can try control the game. I think that is more their strength than controlling the last few minutes.

bucketybuck · 03-10-2016 11:56am

Keegans offence was a black card all day long, same as McCarthy's was in the first game. The fact that somebody can quote the rules and still not see how they applied to Keegan is actually hilarious.

TCDStudent1 · 03-10-2016 11:58am

James Horan also agreed that it was a black card on the HT analysis.

Peist2007 · 03-10-2016 12:01pm

Bambi wrote: »

Deliberately pulled his man down, carta dubh all day.

No he didnt. Try watching it.

Peist2007 · 03-10-2016 12:02pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

James Horan also agreed that it was a black card on the HT analysis.

So? Ciaran Whelan said it wasnt a black card.

Peist2007 · 03-10-2016 12:03pm

Actually, who cares at this point. Deegan got decisions wrong for both teams. I thought Cooper was unlucky to get one and McLoughlin lucky not to.

Hard not to pore over these things on one of the most depressing Mondays at work i think i have ever encountered.

The Talking Bread · 03-10-2016 12:12pm

Bambi wrote: »

Deliberately pulled his man down, carta dubh all day.

It can be construed either way, whether to defend it or to disagree with it.

Deliberately pull down an opponent.
Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot.

There was jostling, but was he trying to actually pull him to the ground rather than restrain him that much?? We can't go into the head of the player. There are clear cut black cards where it is clear that the intention it to take them down

Its like in law, mens rea and actus reus. The combination of intention to do a specific thing (mens rea) and the carrying out of that thing (actus reus) are required to qualify for a crime (for most crimes)
Players are none the wiser, in a physical game like this where that line draws.
Did Keegan want to try restrain or hold back (check) DCs run? If so yellow, in that position.
Did he know DC would go to ground via that tackle? Maybe, maybe not. How can you prove this.
And how can players know where to

Just because he did go to ground? Does that constitute the merit of the punishment?
What if he stayed on his feet? Black or yellow? Actus reus in the black card offence is he has to be taken down?

The truth is these tackles happen constantly during the match, some players stay on their feet, some don't, some obviously physically can't. Much worse intentional restraints on players during games yet if they stay on their feet, ref doesn't implement the rule.

For such a potential game changing rule, there has to be a more clarity on what is the actual offence? The intention or the actual going to ground.

The big thing is intention, and I very much doubt Keegan intended by his actions to ensure DC would go to ground which would give them both a free kick and a black card.

The truth is its roulette for the players at the moment.

Another day, DC would have been able to stay on his feet. Not Saturday.

TCDStudent1 · 03-10-2016 12:15pm

Interesting piece on it here:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/1003/820991-gaelic-football-is-unrefereeable/

HamsterFace · 03-10-2016 12:21pm

Am hearing that Clarke hung up his boots.

Am hoping that's incorrect and, if true, it isn't out of anger. He's had a great year.

The Talking Bread · 03-10-2016 12:23pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

Am hearing that Clarke hung up his boots.

Am hoping that's incorrect and, if true, it isn't out of anger. He's had a great year.

extremely unlikely, 32 years of age, coming off best season he has had.

The flying mouse · 03-10-2016 12:35pm

I know both games were tough and both teams on the day gave it there all, All this if only and it should have and what if is all bull****, The curtain is drawn its over, There was a winner and the majority of people would agree the right one.

There's a reason the rear view mirror is so small and the windshield is so big, where your headed is so much more important than what you've left behind.

So I bow out of this thread now, Some good opinion's here, thanks all.

BonnieSituation · 03-10-2016 12:38pm

All this sack Rochford muck is insane.

He made a call. Absolute pox of call but he made it and that's that. Mayo still were only one-point out of it.

They're my faves for Sam next year tbh.

TCDStudent1 · 03-10-2016 12:41pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All this sack Rochford muck is insane.

He made a call. Absolute pox of call but he made it and that's that. Mayo still were only one-point out of it.

They're my faves for Sam next year tbh.

I would still have Dublin as favourites. But Mayo will be up there again.

Not that one · 03-10-2016 12:48pm

Neutral opinion.
I was at the game, and haven't seen the replay or highlights since, but here is my analysis for what its worth.

When Mayo scored the goal, they had 5 attacks in the next 10 minutes or so, but didn't get any scores out of them.
This is where Mayo really fell down in my opinion. It should have been their "purple patch" and they weren't able to convert the possession into scores.

In the last 10 minutes (5 minutes to go, and additional time) the Mayo players looked exhausted and were not able to get up and support their attackers.
Also, Mayo had at least two kick-outs in this period, where players could have given their keeper an option, but were just too tired/not alert enough and unable to provide this.

lawred2 · 03-10-2016 12:51pm

Not that one wrote: »

Neutral opinion.
I was at the game, and haven't seen the replay or highlights since, but here is my analysis for what its worth.

When Mayo scored the goal, they had 5 attacks in the next 10 minutes or so, but didn't get any scores out of them.
This is where Mayo really fell down in my opinion. It should have been their "purple patch" and they weren't able to convert the possession into scores.

In the last 10 minutes (5 minutes to go, and additional time) the Mayo players looked exhausted and were not able to get up and support their attackers.
Also, Mayo had at least two kick-outs in this period, where players could have given their keeper an option, but were just too tired/not alert enough and unable to provide this.

That's what Mayo do. When the time is right to push on and do it - they don't.

Winning teams make purple patches count. Kerry in their pomp would have kicked on when it mattered.

Very disappointed for Mayo.

I truly believe they left both games behind them.

TCDStudent1 · 03-10-2016 12:56pm

Not that one wrote: »

Neutral opinion.
I was at the game, and haven't seen the replay or highlights since, but here is my analysis for what its worth.

When Mayo scored the goal, they had 5 attacks in the next 10 minutes or so, but didn't get any scores out of them.
This is where Mayo really fell down in my opinion. It should have been their "purple patch" and they weren't able to convert the possession into scores.

In the last 10 minutes (5 minutes to go, and additional time) the Mayo players looked exhausted and were not able to get up and support their attackers.
Also, Mayo had at least two kick-outs in this period, where players could have given their keeper an option, but were just too tired/not alert enough and unable to provide this.

And contrast that to Dublin who completely nailed their kickouts towards the end. Kilkenny (who was arguably quiet enough) showed brilliantly for the kickouts at the end.

keeponhurling · 03-10-2016 1:08pm

I think a key factor was also depth of squad.
Rochford was very slow to make subs the first day, possibly reflecting that he didn't trust the bench.

Brogan had a poor game the first day, and was dropped. The Dubs make 3 changes to freshen things up, because they had suitable candidates on the bench, really pushing for a place in the first 15.
Mannion, Andrews, Fitzsimons, Daly, Costello were all pushing for a starting place.
The 2nd day, knowing that Brogan, McCauley and co. were on the bench meant Dubs could make decisive changes when needed.

The only players Mayo had who would have had a decent claim to not weaken the first 15 would be Barry Moran and Barrett, plus Hennelly possibly.

For example, Aidan O'Shea had a poor return in both games but stayed on the pitch. Andy Moran was very quiet the 2nd day, but they were very slow to replace him due to the absense of alternatives.

Tombo2001 · 03-10-2016 1:10pm

Not that one wrote: »

Neutral opinion.
I was at the game, and haven't seen the replay or highlights since, but here is my analysis for what its worth.

When Mayo scored the goal, they had 5 attacks in the next 10 minutes or so, but didn't get any scores out of them.
This is where Mayo really fell down in my opinion. It should have been their "purple patch" and they weren't able to convert the possession into scores.

In the last 10 minutes (5 minutes to go, and additional time) the Mayo players looked exhausted and were not able to get up and support their attackers.
Also, Mayo had at least two kick-outs in this period, where players could have given their keeper an option, but were just too tired/not alert enough and unable to provide this.

Is that not about depth of squad though.

The contributions made by Cormac Costello and Michael Darragh Macauley were absolutely immense.

I personally would have given Cormac Costello man of the match.

This was an extremely close game - I really think this business of Mayo's failure to this that or the other is just hindsight gobbledegook......they had a free kick to equalise in the last minute of injury time. That goes over, its the second draw in two games. There was nothing between the two teams.

Tombo2001 · 03-10-2016 1:12pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

For example, Aidan O'Shea had a poor return in both games but stayed on the pitch. Andy Moran was very quiet the 2nd day, but they were very slow to replace him due to the absense of alternatives.

I thought he played quite well in the replay.....

better game than Dermot Connolly for example, imho, who also stayed on the pitch.

Robeman · 03-10-2016 1:13pm

elefant wrote: »

I think calls for Rochford to be sacked are crazily premature and knee-jerk.

In two seasons he has managed a club to an All-Ireland championship, and then a county to losing an All-Ireland final replay by a point.

Sure, the move with the goalkeeper backfired pretty spectacularly (and my heart goes out to Robbie Hennelly; I'm genuinely so sorry for the guy), but you can't judge a manager's year on one call. 99/100 Hennelly would have caught that ball. 99/100 any goalkeeper at this level would have caught that ball. Keepers make mistakes, and unfortunately for Mayo it has cost them dearly in this case, just as it cost Donegal a couple of years ago and has cost countless other teams in countless other games. If Rochford could go back with hindsight, I'm sure he'd pick Clarke but to say to loss is on his head is madness.

What did Connolly \ Holmes do wrong last year that resulted in their going. At least this year SR monumental error gives an excuse.

I have absolutely no sympathy for RH he fully deserved his humiliation. What goes around comes around.

My sympathy lies with Clarke what did he do to deserve being dropped.

I wonder were these guys on the same side when the coup was underway last year.

Tombo2001 · 03-10-2016 1:13pm

elefant wrote: »

I think calls for Rochford to be sacked are crazily premature and knee-jerk.

In two seasons he has managed a club to an All-Ireland championship, and then a county to losing an All-Ireland final replay by a point.

Sure, the move with the goalkeeper backfired pretty spectacularly (and my heart goes out to Robbie Hennelly; I'm genuinely so sorry for the guy), but you can't judge a manager's year on one call. 99/100 Hennelly would have caught that ball. 99/100 any goalkeeper at this level would have caught that ball. Keepers make mistakes, and unfortunately for Mayo it has cost them dearly in this case, just as it cost Donegal a couple of years ago and has cost countless other teams in countless other games. If Rochford could go back with hindsight, I'm sure he'd pick Clarke but to say to loss is on his head is madness.

I think he just be praised for having the courage to make the call. it didn't work out, by I can definitely see how it could have.

bucketybuck · 03-10-2016 1:13pm

The Talking Bread wrote: »

There was jostling, but was he trying to actually pull him to the ground rather than restrain him that much??

I'll tell you what he wasn't doing, tackling the ball. You know, that little thing that is supposed to be the basis of the tackle in gaelic football.

Blud · 03-10-2016 1:17pm

Congrats to the Dubs, can't argue that they are a great team, even when not playing well. Serious team, and deserve the two in a row accolade.

From our own point of view, it's awful hard to take that one. Way too raw to get into any detail on it, loads of different if-onlys about it that I'm sure will drive us mental over the winter.

And then Europe went and lost too. Sport is a pile of ****e really.

Robeman · 03-10-2016 1:18pm

HamsterFace wrote: »

Am hearing that Clarke hung up his boots.

Am hoping that's incorrect and, if true, it isn't out of anger. He's had a great year.

He is an honourable man who was shafted by people who though that back room plotting wins all irelands.

Hopefully he will return if a new management team is put in place.

TCDStudent1 · 03-10-2016 1:18pm

Blud wrote: »

Congrats to the Dubs, can't argue that they are a great team, even when not playing well. Serious team, and deserve the two in a row accolade.

From our own point of view, it's awful hard to take that one. Way too raw to get into any detail on it, loads of different if-onlys about it that I'm sure will drive us mental over the winter.

And then Europe went and lost too. Sport is a pile of ****e really.

But it will make the one that you win so much more sweeter.

The Talking Bread · 03-10-2016 1:19pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'll tell you what he wasn't doing, tackling the ball. You know, that little thing that is supposed to be the basis of the tackle in gaelic football.

We are talking about black card here. We all know that it was an illegitimate tackle. The question is was it within the remit of a black card offence.

elefant · 03-10-2016 1:20pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'll tell you what he wasn't doing, tackling the ball. You know, that little thing that is supposed to be the basis of the tackle in gaelic football.

That doesn't equal a black card though.

Nobody is suggesting it wasn't a foul, or a yellow card.

PARlance · 03-10-2016 1:21pm

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

And contrast that to Dublin who completely nailed their kickouts towards the end. Kilkenny (who was arguably quiet enough) showed brilliantly for the kickouts at the end.

The kick out was a key area that stood out for me. I was in the Hill, looking out at what RH was facing in the first half and he had very few options, no options a lot of the time. Dublin were in position and pressing on everthing. We got a few soft ones towards the end of the match when Dublin naturally retreated a bit.

Contrast that to SC and he generally had a man available in the corner or straight down the middle. That's a great platform to have to go on and win the game.

I thought Clarke was extremely hard done by but I can see why Hennelly was considered. Now, I wouldn't have done it myself but on paper he is supposed to be the better at kickouts. Clarke did have a wobble towards the end of the first game and they even had Hennelly warming up.

It turned out to be a disaster, you would have wanted Clarke coming out with legs flying for the ball before the peno but at the very least I can see why Hennelly was considered.

elefant · 03-10-2016 1:23pm

Robeman wrote: »

What did Connolly \ Holmes do wrong last year that resulted in their going. At least this year SR monumental error gives an excuse.

I have absolutely no sympathy for RH he fully deserved his humiliation. What goes around comes around.

You'll have to illuminate us as to what Robbie Hennelly did to deserve his humiliation?

I'm not saying Connelly and Holmes (btw, why is it that nobody can spell Connelly or Diarmuid Connolly correctly?) deserved to be sacked. I'm saying Rochford doesn't deserve to be sacked, not even close, now.

SFC Final Replay - Dublin v Mayo Sat 1st October *Read Mod Note Post #1*

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SFC Final Replay - Dublin v Mayo Sat 1st October Read Mod Note Post #1