Clare GAA discussion thread

Henno30 · 27-07-2016 03:31PM

Clareman wrote: »

By my reckoning since 2012 Clare have played 21 Championship games, we've won 10 games (2 against Laois), lost 9 and drew 2 games, that's a less than 50% win ratio. Take 2013 out of it, then we have a 8 loses, 4 wins and 1 draw record, for a supposed tier 1 team that's not good enough in my opinion.

You don't even need to look at win percentages. We have more exits at the qualifier stage than any other top county bar Wexford under him. Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Galway, Kilkenny, Tipp & Waterford have all made the All-Ireland series more frequently.

It's not like we are being shown up when we face the real contenders. We're not even good enough to play on the same field as the real contenders. Wexford, absolutely annihilated by Limerick after they knocked us out in 2014. Cork, blown away by Galway last year after they beat us. And both Waterford and Galway vastly superior to us again this year.

This isn't 'just falling short' stuff. This is not even being relevant. It is as bad as we endured during the dark depths of the 1980s. All with the best pool of talent the county has ever had.

Clareman · 27-07-2016 03:33PM

Henno30 wrote: »

Not saying I want Daly back. Merely pointing out the insane distortion of the facts we are enduring currently. Where abject failure is being portrayed as great success.

Ger Loughnane changed Clare hurling by ridding it of the inferiority complex that plagued it for generations. Davy has gone out of his way to reestablish it.

Go to 2:20 on this video and listen to what Loughnane says. The compare it with what we have listened to this year.

TRB3haSlugE

Thanks for the video, that's my weekend sorted

Loughnane had a very flawed approach in my opinion, it worked for knock out hurling that only had 4 games a year to win an All Ireland. He broke the players down physically and mentally and then brought them back, the stories from the players back in the day that up until the Wednesday before a game they were the worst in the world, not deserving to wear the jersey then come Thursday they were the best in the world and no-one was going to beat them. Back in the late 90s most of the players wouldn't have played in the league even, ffs most of that team were the Clare minors from 89 and the under 21s from 95, similar to now.

Henno30 · 27-07-2016 03:51PM

Clareman wrote: »

Thanks for the video, that's my weekend sorted

Loughnane had a very flawed approach in my opinion, it worked for knock out hurling that only had 4 games a year to win an All Ireland. He broke the players down physically and mentally and then brought them back, the stories from the players back in the day that up until the Wednesday before a game they were the worst in the world, not deserving to wear the jersey then come Thursday they were the best in the world and no-one was going to beat them. Back in the late 90s most of the players wouldn't have played in the league even, ffs most of that team were the Clare minors from 89 and the under 21s from 95, similar to now.

He was far from perfect. But he understood that a lack of belief that they would win anything had undermined talented Clare teams for generations. He took over in the winter of 1994 after two hidings in Munster finals, and told the players that they would win the All-Ireland. He said it to the national media after Clare were badly beaten in the 1995 league final. At the beginning of 1997 he said straight out that of they didn't deliver the All-Ireland that year they were a failure. No excuses. No setting up escape routes for himself. He created the pressure that was needed to perform at the level required, and he deeply embedded the belief that Clare had no need to fear anyone.

It is in stark contrast to what we hear from Davy these days. That Clare have no tradition, should have no expectations to win, are just 'little fish' trying to compete. All done in order to preserve and prolong his tenure and to deflect criticism from himself. It's not just that he is proving himself incompetent, he is proving himself corrosive.

buck65 · 27-07-2016 04:46PM

When it comes to the crunch Davy will stay on. He is heftily rewarded financially and why would he turn his back on €80k or whatever mad figure he's getting.

The players however are sick of him and probably burned out so they might opt to change things - however don't count on it - they didn't exactly cover themselves in glory when Davy O Halloran went out on his own last year. Not condoning his behaviour here but his colleagues didn't back him.

The county board is not an option as they are a load of stooges. They remind me of the Clare backroom team - big, bloated and needless.
Davy had his time and had a great year in 2013 with a brilliant bunch of players, his performance since then has been abject and the players have underperformed, remember the highs that the U21s hit against Kilkenny in All Ireland final - those lads have the ability but the stringent 7 game plans per match routine has robbed them of their spark. I would love to see Clare play off the cuff in a 15v 15 way again like in 2013 finals.

Clareman · 27-07-2016 04:57PM

buck65 wrote: »

When it comes to the crunch Davy will stay on. He is heftily rewarded financially and why would he turn his back on €80k or whatever mad figure he's getting.

The players however are sick of him and probably burned out so they might opt to change things - however don't count on it - they didn't exactly cover themselves in glory when Davy O Halloran went out on his own last year. Not condoning his behaviour here but his colleagues didn't back him.

The county board is not an option as they are a load of stooges. They remind me of the Clare backroom team - big, bloated and needless.
Davy had his time and had a great year in 2013 with a brilliant bunch of players, his performance since then has been abject and the players have underperformed, remember the highs that the U21s hit against Kilkenny in All Ireland final - those lads have the ability but the stringent 7 game plans per match routine has robbed them of their spark. I would love to see Clare play off the cuff in a 15v 15 way again like in 2013 finals.

They went 15 v 15 against Kilkenny this year and played the best in years, it's so disappointing that we're missing out on the players ability

Akrasia · 27-07-2016 07:03PM

Yep. The one time he listened to everyone who hates his 'system' and we hammer the All Ireland Champions and score a load of goals.

Rather than learn from this, he goes straight back to the sweeper and we draw with Waterford in the league final (after extra time) having only scored 15 points in normal time

Clareman · 27-07-2016 07:15PM

The more I look back on the season I think they went out not caring to a certain degree against Kilkenny, no need to devise a game plan or anything special, just go out and hurl, if they lost they had a month to prepare to Waterford, if they won they were in a league final. The free abandon and skill levels shown that day hasn't been matched all day.

LuckyGent88 · 27-07-2016 10:00PM

The red card for o'connor has been rescinded anyway. Delighted for him.

irish coldplayer · 27-07-2016 10:09PM

he is going nowhere imo, in danger of destroying his own legacy at this stage, if he keeps going he wont be as much remembered for 2013 but for wasting a golden generation of hurlers entrusted to him.
Nobody doubts his love for and commitment to clare hurling but hes got to know in his heart that its just not working and its time for someone else. He will always be a clare hurling legend.
Surely his health has to be a consideration as well at this stage as Joe Canning said at the weekend at the end of the day its a pastime life and health is more important.

irish coldplayer · 27-07-2016 10:10PM

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

The red card for o'connor has been rescinded anyway. Delighted for him.

Thats great news!

Henno30 · 27-07-2016 10:52PM

irish coldplayer wrote: »

he is going nowhere imo, in danger of destroying his own legacy at this stage, if he keeps going he wont be as much remembered for 2013 but for wasting a golden generation of hurlers entrusted to him.
Nobody doubts his love for and commitment to clare hurling but hes got to know in his heart that its just not working and its time for someone else. He will always be a clare hurling legend.
Surely his health has to be a consideration as well at this stage as Joe Canning said at the weekend at the end of the day its a pastime life and health is more important.

His health is a concern. His income is a bigger one.

That may seem below the belt to some, but unfortunately it's the truth.

deaddonkey15 · 27-07-2016 11:02PM

I don't mind Davy staying on if he just drops the awful sweeper system and lets the players play to their full potential.

commonsense. · 27-07-2016 11:53PM

Dalo not an option if Davy goes/ousted as he will be offered the Limerick job. Can't see him refusing that deal!

Figerty · 27-07-2016 11:57PM

commonsense. wrote: »

Dalo not an option if Davy goes/ousted as he will be offered the Limerick job. Can't see him refusing that deal!

Three good options.

Brian Lohan,,, He has had a few pops at Davys style already.
Under 21 Management from the past few years,
Daly is also a possibility.

Davy has had 6 years. The League win, while welcome, was undermined by the championship. If Seamus Callinan could have hit a barn door on frees, we wouldn't have even gotten to the final.

Henno30 · 28-07-2016 12:27AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I don't mind Davy staying on if he just drops the awful sweeper system and lets the players play to their full potential.

Problems are a lot deeper than that sadly. Even if they weren't, Davy regards himself as a genius whom no one is qualified to criticise. Even his former teammates aren't deemed worthy of questioning his tactics as they probably 'don't understand it'.

Limestone Cowboy · 28-07-2016 12:38AM

commonsense. wrote: »

Dalo not an option if Davy goes/ousted as he will be offered the Limerick job. Can't see him refusing that deal!

No, a change is needed at this stage. I'm hearing talk of 5 or 6 lads going on j1's next summer if he is still in charge and they are not throwaway players like Davy O Halloran. You can be sure there is a percentage of the panel fairly disgruntled after the last few years and a change of tactics isint going to be enough to bring them back around to the right mindset in my opinion. I hope a stand off is coming to put this to bed once and for all. The definition of insanity is???? Things will be no different under Davy next year than they have been for the three seasons previous. Stupid tactics, team selections and absolutely no accountability when things go wrong. I can't see looking in from the outside how it could be a happy camp. Time will tell a lot but if he is going to go it's going to take Tony Kelly driving a bulldozer and the rest of the team pushing it to shift him.

Limestone Cowboy · 28-07-2016 12:39AM

Sorry meant to quote deaddonkey

windy shepard henderson · 28-07-2016 04:35AM

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

No, a change is needed at this stage. I'm hearing talk of 5 or 6 lads going on j1's next summer if he is still in charge and they are not throwaway players like Davy O Halloran. You can be sure there is a percentage of the panel fairly disgruntled after the last few years and a change of tactics isint going to be enough to bring them back around to the right mindset in my opinion. I hope a stand off is coming to put this to bed once and for all. The definition of insanity is???? Things will be no different under Davy next year than they have been for the three seasons previous. Stupid tactics, team selections and absolutely no accountability when things go wrong. I can't see looking in from the outside how it could be a happy camp. Time will tell a lot but if he is going to go it's going to take Tony Kelly driving a bulldozer and the rest of the team pushing it to shift him.

regardless of how pissed off the players are i cant see it happening , next year will be no better then this year, if the players know its davys last year i imagine like you said there would be a few j1 drop outs or something like that

Henno30 · 28-07-2016 09:50AM

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

No, a change is needed at this stage. I'm hearing talk of 5 or 6 lads going on j1's next summer if he is still in charge and they are not throwaway players like Davy O Halloran. You can be sure there is a percentage of the panel fairly disgruntled after the last few years and a change of tactics isint going to be enough to bring them back around to the right mindset in my opinion. I hope a stand off is coming to put this to bed once and for all. The definition of insanity is???? Things will be no different under Davy next year than they have been for the three seasons previous. Stupid tactics, team selections and absolutely no accountability when things go wrong. I can't see looking in from the outside how it could be a happy camp. Time will tell a lot but if he is going to go it's going to take Tony Kelly driving a bulldozer and the rest of the team pushing it to shift him.

There is a group that is sick of Davy, a group that is backing him, and a lot of players in the middle who either don't care or are open to persuasion. As you say, Kelly is an important figure.

After the treatment of Davy O'Halloran I would really question the mentality of these players to be honest. A lot of hurling people in the county were shocked by that, as O'Halloran's characterisation of the manager was entirely correct. Beyond that is the manager's (with the assistance of his PR adviser) cultivation of a narrative in the national press that the players are essentially overrated, and he is hugely overachieving with them.

It really shouldn't take that. The manager they are working like dogs under is incapable of leading them to championship wins. It's that simple. They have gone from being players with pedigree and high expectations to players who lose to everybody, all of the time. That should be enough. It was enough for Cork in 2002. But maybe these players don't have that character, as much as it saddens me to say it. Maybe the fortitude just isn't there.

The one thing I would say in opposition to that point is that leadership is actively dis-encouraged in this setup. Here's something everyone interested in the Clare hurling team should listen to, JJ Delaney's analysis of Galway's second goal on the GAA Hour podcast. Bugler was man-marking Canning, and at the start of the second half Canning moved into the full-forward line. Rather than just pick him up Bugler - who is a former All-Star with 10 years of intercounty experience - panicked and turned to the line for instruction on what he should do.

The line told him to stay put. Joe Canning, of all people, was left unmarked. Ten seconds later he had scored a goal that essentially ended our season.

Delaney was baffled by this. Why did Bugler not make his own decision? Why was a player with his experience afraid to act without receiving approval from the line first? It made no sense.

But if you are a close observer of Clare hurling it makes perfect sense, because it is entirely in tune with the culture of this squad. Players are terrified to make their own decisions. They are roared at for 70+ minutes of every game and excoriated if they do anything that deviates from their standing orders.

Is this a culture that is likely to produce player revolt? I am deeply sceptical.

Akrasia · 28-07-2016 10:12AM

Henno30 wrote: »

There is a group that is sick of Davy, a group that is backing him, and a lot of players in the middle who either don't care or are open to persuasion. As you say, Kelly is an important figure.

After the treatment of Davy O'Halloran I would really question the mentality of these players to be honest. A lot of hurling people in the county were shocked by that, as O'Halloran's characterisation of the manager was entirely correct. Beyond that is the manager's (with the assistance of his PR adviser) cultivation of a narrative in the national press that the players are essentially overrated, and he is hugely overachieving with them.

It really shouldn't take that. The manager they are working like dogs under is incapable of leading them to championship wins. It's that simple. They have gone from being players with pedigree and high expectations to players who lose to everybody, all of the time. That should be enough. It was enough for Cork in 2002. But maybe these players don't have that character, as much as it saddens me to say it. Maybe the fortitude just isn't there.

The one thing I would say in opposition to that point is that leadership is actively dis-encouraged in this setup. Here's something everyone interested in the Clare hurling team should listen to, JJ Delaney's analysis of Galway's second goal on the GAA Hour podcast. Bugler was man-marking Canning, and at the start of the second half Canning moved into the full-forward line. Rather than just pick him up Bugler - who is a former All-Star with 10 years of intercounty experience - panicked and turned to the line for instruction on what he should do.

The line told him to stay put. Joe Canning, of all people, was left unmarked. Ten seconds later he had scored a goal that essentially ended our season.

Delaney was baffled by this. Why did Bugler not make his own decision? Why was a player with his experience afraid to act without receiving approval from the line first? It made no sense.

But if you are a close observer of Clare hurling it makes perfect sense, because it is entirely in tune with the culture of this squad. Players are terrified to make their own decisions. They are roared at for 70+ minutes of every game and excoriated if they do anything that deviates from their standing orders.

Is this a culture that is likely to produce player revolt? I am deeply sceptical.

Stockholm syndrome?

I think the lads will have a long summer and this weekend in particular will be tough to watch the footballers playing in Croke Park while they're looking ahead to another year of disappointment

I think there will be a player revolt. There is already a fan revolt. Fitzgerald has run out of good will. People thought that giving him an entourage of experienced and talented back room staff would allow him to make better decisions, but it seems that they're only re-enforcing his high opinion of himself.

We won the league but the way we played in the first final against waterford, we didn't deserve to win that game. Waterford lost that game through inexplicably awful accuracy. We barely beat Tipperary in the league quarter final and didn't really deserve to win that game either.

Clareman · 28-07-2016 12:51PM

Unfortunately I can't see there being a player revolt, they are all sheep who have been programmed into doing exactly what they are being told, I think players will make excuses to drop out and then be lost. If I was a sub on a team I wouldn't be overly enamered with staying around either, against Waterford 2 injured players were brought on, against Limerick only 2 players were brought on and against Galway only 4, last year player were being brought back on after being taken off.

It's a bit depressing when you think the last time Podge played in Croke Park was the All Ireland replay in 2013.

Henno30 · 28-07-2016 12:58PM

Clareman wrote: »

Unfortunately I can't see there being a player revolt, they are all sheep who have been programmed into doing exactly what they are being told, I think players will make excuses to drop out and then be lost. If I was a sub on a team I wouldn't be overly enamered with staying around either, against Waterford 2 injured players were brought on, against Limerick only 2 players were brought on and against Galway only 4, last year player were being brought back on after being taken off.

You don't even need to refer to championship. You don't even need to refer to the National League. We use far fewer players in Munster League games than anyone else. Fielding close to full strength championship sides in January against extended panellists from Cork and Waterford. And those wins are part of our outstanding record for 2016

You're exactly right I fear. The number of talented players we have already lost over the last 5 years is a bit of a scandal I think. But we are going to lose a lot more this winter. It is utterly pointless for 35-40 lads to be training insanely hard when maybe 20 of them will see some game time over the season.

Clareman · 28-07-2016 01:10PM

Having players playing Fitzgibbon and Munster League is madness, players were training back in October and then weren't ever getting a game.

patsy_mccabe · 28-07-2016 01:42PM

I wonder would Seaney McMahon be interested in the position? He's involved with the intermediates this year.

Clareman · 28-07-2016 01:46PM

It's hard to know who would be interested, on 1 hand you have (probably) the best bunch of 22-25 year olds in the country most of whom have won at senior level already at your disposal, on the other hand there will be 0 resources available to you and there'd be a very good chance that certain parts of the county board would be out to get you.

Henno30 · 28-07-2016 02:01PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I wonder would Seaney McMahon be interested in the position? He's involved with the intermediates this year.

Not yet I'd say. Would prefer a few more years at Minor/U21 learning the ropes.

Henno30 · 28-07-2016 02:02PM

Clareman wrote: »

It's hard to know who would be interested, on 1 hand you have (probably) the best bunch of 22-25 year olds in the country most of whom have won at senior level already at your disposal, on the other hand there will be 0 resources available to you and there'd be a very good chance that certain parts of the county board would be out to get you.

The big purple jumpered part in particular.

Clareman · 28-07-2016 02:03PM

Henno30 wrote: »

The big purple jumpered part in particular.

Yup as well as other "interested" parties.

keeponhurling · 28-07-2016 02:06PM

Clareman wrote: »

It's a bit depressing when you think the last time Podge played in Croke Park was the All Ireland replay in 2013.

He played there in April in the Division 3 final, and plays there again on Sunday :pac:

Let's see if he can maintain his 100% record

Realbhoy · 28-07-2016 02:07PM

Away from the hurling it's good to see that Cathal O'Connor was cleared to play on Sunday. There was no decision really when you saw the view from the stand based camera. The refs view made it look a lot worse than it was and I think he really would have benefitted from the linesman having a word with him before producing the red: I'm presuming that the linesman was in a position to advise him...

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