Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

JeffKenna · 24-07-2016 11:52PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

I'm living in eternal hope it's a master plan that waterford are building/training all year to peak for a semi-final

After that the well of optimism is empty

Perhaps it is all a master plan. Its the only reason I can think why Devine seems to be so much out of favour...maybe he'll be a surprise start against KK who knows.

mickmackmcgoo · 24-07-2016 11:57PM

JeffKenna wrote:

Perhaps it is all a master plan. Its the only reason I can think why Devine seems to be so much out of favour...maybe he'll be a surprise start against KK who knows.

Do you really think Devine should be starting. He was completely anonymous for most of the under 21 game against Clare

garv123 · 25-07-2016 12:22AM

Brick started well today with 2 points and then things went back to normal from then on with very little attacking or possession from him. I'd love to see a game without brick and the likes of Bennett, Dunford or o halloran in his place. O halloran got 2 points today and looked threatening. He could do a lot more I'd he got 50-60 minutes.
Bringing Dunford on for 5 minutes is no good. You need him running at defences for a lof more than that.
Jamie Barron is one of the most underrated hurlers in the country. Man of the match today for me. Great performance and good points.

Deise2016 · 25-07-2016 12:23AM

One of the worst ten point wins I can ever remember in hurling.

I know we won and players and management deserve credit for getting the win after what happened against Tipp

But christ above lads....

No life to the game at all

No reason to get off your seat

No excitement, no spark

The game could have gone on for another 70 minutes and we wouldn't have scored a goal

I thought the drawn league final v Clare was bad but that was worse.

No progress from last year.

Still miles behind Tipp and Kilkenny and Galway would beat us too.

Austin Gleeson, Patrick Curran, the Bennetts, Maurice Shanahan, Brian O'Hallorran, Jamie Barron, Colin Dunford, Tom Devine....we have exciting, talented young players but we are a bore to watch

Yes we won but surely in a minority sport like hurling there has to be some sort of loyalty to the game aswell

What use will an All Ireland be if we win it in a few years time in front of a half empty Croke Park.

Because that's the way the game is headed over the next 10 - 20 years unless things change.

We've already got the low crowds and most people in Thurles today were asleep for much of both games.

Tipp v Cork, Tipp v Wat, the league finals, Clare v Lim, Cork v Wexford, the two games today, our games v Tipp and KK last year....all boring boring games.

What is it about supposedly innovative and modern tactics in Gaelic Games that everything must be so defence minded and negative.

Can a manager not just focus on getting good deliveries into good forwards and letting them play?

God help hurling if this is the future.

Deise2016 · 25-07-2016 12:26AM

garv123 wrote: »

Brick started well today with 2 points and then things went back to normal from then on with very little attacking or possession from him. I'd love to see a game without brick and the likes of Bennett, Dunford or o halloran in his place. O halloran got 2 points today and looked threatening. He could do a lot more I'd he got 50-60 minutes.
Bringing Dunford on for 5 minutes is no good. You need him running at defences for a lof more than that.
Jamie Barron is one of the most underrated hurlers in the country. Man of the match today for me. Great performance and good points.

Brick, Moran, Pauric Mahony all good players but could we not leave at least one of the three out to get just a little bit more pace and eye for goal into the team

Colin Dunford very unfortunate not to be in the team

O'Halloran, Devine and Stephen Bennett could all add something different also.

carter10 · 25-07-2016 12:45AM

Deise2016 wrote: »

One of the worst ten point wins I can ever remember in hurling.

I know we won and players and management deserve credit for getting the win after what happened against Tipp

But christ above lads....

No life to the game at all

No reason to get off your seat

No excitement, no spark

The game could have gone on for another 70 minutes and we wouldn't have scored a goal

I thought the drawn league final v Clare was bad but that was worse.

No progress from last year.

Still miles behind Tipp and Kilkenny and Galway would beat us too.

Austin Gleeson, Patrick Curran, the Bennetts, Maurice Shanahan, Brian O'Hallorran, Jamie Barron, Colin Dunford, Tom Devine....we have exciting, talented young players but we are a bore to watch

Yes we won but surely in a minority sport like hurling there has to be some sort of loyalty to the game aswell

What use will an All Ireland be if we win it in a few years time in front of a half empty Croke Park.

Because that's the way the game is headed over the next 10 - 20 years unless things change.

We've already got the low crowds and most people in Thurles today were asleep for much of both games.

Tipp v Cork, Tipp v Wat, the league finals, Clare v Lim, Cork v Wexford, the two games today, our games v Tipp and KK last year....all boring boring games.

What is it about supposedly innovative and modern tactics in Gaelic Games that everything must be so defence minded and negative.

Can a manager not just focus on getting good deliveries into good forwards and letting them play?

God help hurling if this is the future.

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

Deise2016 · 25-07-2016 01:15AM

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

Open hurling and goals is what will win an all Ireland.

Maurice scored a goal for us v Clare in the second minute of the game.

For the rest of that game, the Munster Final and today's game we never scored or even looked like scoring a goal.

We haven't a hope in hell of winning an All Ireland playing such a defensive system. Fact.

Credit to the players and management for winning today. They deserve credit and should enjoy the result.

But the bigger picture is we're a million miles away from beating KK or Tipp.

No goals makes it impossible to beat KK or Tipp in a championship game and it's as clear as can be

robopaddy2 · 25-07-2016 01:22AM

What a strange feeling. A comfortable 10 point win almost feeling like a defeat. I guess its knowing what awaits us in the semi. And seeing young talented forwards being stifled and suffocated by a system that is sucking the life and enthusiasm out of everyone, fans and players alike. Where is the enjoyment in supporting our county watching that? Not to mind what it must be like to play in it. I m clinging onto the hope that McGrath & co haven t shown their hand and we will explode into the semi with a different, conventional type approach. Anything other than at least a massive performance, pushing KK all the way should spell the end for this manager. When you look at how the players rebelled against Skully Ryan a few years back. Would anyone blame them if they wanted out of this system? As Joe Canning said after the Galway game, this is only a hobby for players. Where is the enjoyment in this hobby for these Waterford players you wonder

Roll on the u21s game Wednesday night. Its refreshing to see the players at least being allowed to hurl in a natural way

Cake Man · 25-07-2016 04:14AM

It's a strange feeling, as others have said it's good to at least get the win and make a trip to Croke park but it feels a bit empty and hollow. The game itself was fairly dire and I was urging them on to grab a goal or two but apart from a few Shane Bennet raspers (which I think he went for but just angled them too high) we didn't trouble their goal at any point.

The one thing I'll say is it was a kind of lose-lose game for us. If we won, everyone would say that it was to be expected and why we didn't win by more etc. But if we lost, well, there would've been war. So at least credit to the lads for doing the necessary albeit against limited opposition. Moran and Barron were very good, Tadgh solid too. That's probably all is worth talking about in terms of positives.

As for the negatives, well it's been mentioned already but the shooting was shocking. Aussie guilty as anyone, he needs to be told if he puts the first 2 or 3 wide then a "no long range shooting" policy needs to be applied to him and rather work/feed good ball into the FF line. The game bypassed Maurice and Paddy Curran as they were given absolutely nothing to work with up there. It must be demoralising for them.
I also don't understand why we insist on taking every ball into the tackle and risk turning it over. We'd be better off playing first time ball into the forwards.

It's impossible to see us turning over KK, especially after the last two games. KK will pick us off at ease if we continue to stupidly waste possession and take hail mary efforts. Shiner Ahearne made a good point on WLR at the end of the game where he said if we are to beat KK it would likely be at a time we least expect it which is probably true but after today, it's just not going to happen this year unfortunately. Another semi final loss to add to the rest coming up.....

Motivator · 25-07-2016 07:54AM

This is getting ridiculous now. This isn't hurling we're playing. Play the game properly against Kilkenny & if we get beaten by 20 points what about it, at least give it a go. For me, going up to Crok Park to play the way we're playing is already accepting that we can't beat Kilkenny. I wonder could any of the management team honestly tell us that these tactics will beat Kilkenny? They won't, it's not that they might or they could, they just won't. That's a fact. Play like we have been for two years & it's another semi final defeat. I'd rather give it a go & lose by 25.

Credit to the team today for the win, can't have been easy at all after the Munster final. These players deserve so much more than they're getting at the moment. It's really like watching a game of schools hurling where the headmaster is watching & the children are afraid to play freely in case they get in trouble. So frustrating. Whatever about fans going up there to watch it, my wife's cousin is on the panel & it must be very disheartening training since October for this.

Anyway, we'll see what happens in two weeks I suppose.

cornerboy · 25-07-2016 08:20AM

Ban all coaches........

blueflame · 25-07-2016 08:52AM

A 10 point win against any team at this stage of the championship must be worth celebrating , then why do i feel like we lost. I listened to Derek on the radio this morning talking about how far we have come since Nolan Park in 2014 as if he has resurrected us, well he should remember it was he who had us down there in the first place. !2 months prior to that y we had consolidated Div 1 status and run KK to extra time.

Forget about shooting wides, that is happening because we are having to resort to pot shots from 70 yards plus. The amount of time that there were only two players within 40 yards of the Wexford goal yesterday was ridiculous. Forwards of calibre of the Bennett Bros, Patrick Curran, Maurice, and even Paudie Mahony are being asked to hurl 80% of the game in our half of the field, crazy. Every time a back or a midfielder looks up there is no one to play the ball to so we opt to shoot. On top of the wide count you can add another 6/7 attempts that drop short. It is inviting teams onto us and putting even more pressure on backs. A back likes nothing better than seeing the pressure applied at the far end of the field.

No disrespect to Wexford they are a young team building with some fine hurlers, but Tipp or KK would most likely have savaged us have playing those tactics. We cannot keep inviting teams to flood our half of the field and hope to pick them off from 60 yards plus. Last year we mounted some clever intricate moves that created goal chances, this year we are more negative than ever. Derek has said we got beaten badly against Tipp because we abandoned the system and played conventional, RUBBISH - we got badly beaten against Tipp because we were flat and we allowed the game to be played within 30 meters of our goal. This is not about playing a sweeper system, it is about playing ultra negative hurling showing no belief in your players.

con89 · 25-07-2016 09:22AM

wats the craic wrote: »

we will see sunday san when we bait ya lol

''Lol''

HangBlaa · 25-07-2016 09:26AM

Lord save us.. 2 league finals in a row, 2 all-Ireland semi-finals in a row. Perspective, this panel are still a bit short of the quality if what we had 2002-2010, and derek is getting a lot out of them. For context, he is getting far more than Davy got from a super clare panel, or TJ Ryan got from a limerick panel with a better recent years underage record than us.

People calling for Brick & Moran to be dropped, Brick is resoonsible for a huge number of turnovers in every match, one of our 3 goto men from puckouts.. Yet you want him to be replaced by somebody to run at the opposition, well you need to win possession first. As for dropping Kevin Moran.. Yeah, good one !

Yesterday, was a job well done. First 20 minutes waterford largely played with a full set of forwards, pushing up on Wexford puck out and forcing them long. This layed a platform for a 5point lead, which was maintained with comfort.

Wexford with wind and a far stronger second half breeze were able to land puck outs on Waterford 21yard line which inevitably meant that waterford, hunting in packs were further back the field, again a job well done with no Wexford Green flag.

Of the wides, not all were crazy pot shots, they were mainly from scoreable positions, with 6 or so barely wide. Frustrating yes, but not the end of the world.

Its time to stop listening to evangalists like Henry and Eddie Brennan ( proved a super manager this year!) bemoaning 'systems' and 'sweepers'. We cut our cloth to fit. Easy for them, with their county having 10 all-irelands in 13 years. Also this 'system' was pioneered by Cody, Centre back sitting on the D. Wing forwards and midfield dropping back to half back line. Era, maybe I am wrong, sure cats never did tactics !!

On an aside, Galway lined up with a sweeper, Aidan Harte, and beat Clare 2-17 to 17. In a great performance... We beat them 1-21 to 17, in terrible negative anti-hurling.

Cop on lads... 2 games to go.

deiseach · 25-07-2016 09:31AM

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

When I saw Eddie Brennan, the tactical genius who led the Kilkenny Under-21's to defeat against Westmeath, finger-wagging about the necessity for Waterford 'playing off instinct' just like we did when we didn't win All-Irelands back in his day either, I felt a strange warmth for The System. Screw him and everyone with their right-way-to-play-the-game claptrap.

Professey Chin · 25-07-2016 09:43AM

21 points against an absolutely terrible wexford team is nothing to really celebrate. That was no better then the second half against tipp but wexford were playing even worse and couldn't punish us for it. And they seemed to have learned absolutely nothing.
The same tactic of direct ball bypassing the crowded areas working, the same stupid insistence of trying to break a tackle with every possession, the constant sideways handpassing (there was one play in the second half causing constant groans. About 12 handpasses to work it up the field for tdb to send it wide), Patrick Curran out in midfield on more then one occasion, Stephen Bennett brought on to be marked by 3 men, brick left on for 71 minutes when he clearly doesn't have the legs for it anymore, Maurice moved to every position possible when he wasn't doing anything in any of them, constant pot shots because there's nobody inside the opponents 45, when the isolated forward does manage to gain possession nobody seems interested in actually getting up to support him, what seems to be a massive fear of actually playing the ball quickly, long solo runs without support or without the player looking up (that seems to be a bit of a chicken and egg situation in terms of fault but try those against kk and you're getting cleaned out of it).
I'm trying to get positives even with the win and I'm struggling. We have direct, pacey, dangerous forwards not allowed play. I'd much rather a full forward line of Curran, Stephen Bennett and Dunford with Mahony, Devine and Shane Bennett behind them. It'd be a threat IF they don't keep getting told to go back to their own half of the field....which they would..... Dammit

Ropaire · 25-07-2016 09:43AM

I've got no issue with playing 1-10 as a defensive system, it works well and we don't concede as much as we used to. We played Limerick in a challenge early in the year and were getting destroyed while we lined up orthodox, we switched to sweeper and although we still lost we looked alot more comfortable and were well on top.
We've played like this for so long that we're incapable of playing any other way now, it's embedded into the players.
What I wanted to see this year was 11-15 evolving some attacking patterns with plenty of movement to try and open up space for fast deliveries in. It seemed like the logical next step to add a functional attack to a solid defence., even with just 5 forwards we'd have lads like Dunford to run at defenders and at least attempt to carry a goal threat.
But instead it's the same as it was the last two years, the ball is just launched in over their heads and wide time and again. Lads like Gleeson and Moran had plenty of chances yesterday at the start of the game to pick out a half intelligent pass inside when we had bodies forward, but they ballooned more senseless hail Mary shots wide it was criminal. Who is going to stay forward when that's happening, the forwards we had will naturally start drifting out the field looking for possession. McGrath says that he isn't concerned with wides then, so there's no chance they're going to be told to cut it out or have a look for a better final pass any time soon.

There's been no improvement from last year whatsoever, and the surprise factor is long gone. Unless we try and bring something new to the table Kilkenny will just need to push their corner backs up to give themselves a platform to launch ball in on our fullbacks and eat us alive.

bruschi · 25-07-2016 10:00AM

From a Wexford point of view, I was disappointed with Waterford. Yes, we stunk, utterly and truly stank the place out of it, but I wasnt expecting much anyway coming into this game. We have a lot of young players coming through and about ten missing from yesterday (obviously not all first 15, but the strength in depth would be a big factor). We need a major management upheaval, but we'll see how that goes.

As for Waterford, the thing that disappointed me so much was that the game yesterday was an opportunity to devise a plan B. What happens when the system fails or you are chasing a game and need goals? How do you do that? Yesterdays result was never in doubt and man for man, Waterford had a better team. So why not go out and even if you only get a 2 point win, but score 3 goals, surely it is better to see if you can adapt and change within a game and not be so rigid and a slave to the system.

The other thing that is disappointing is the rigidity and lack of originality. I always considered Waterford probably the most flair based hurling team, with maverick type players who could do anything with the ball and a very flashy type team. Granted, that may not always win you games, but their was an expression of character with them and attractive play. Now you have a team that is so utterly boring to watch and when the system fails, there is nothing there to arrest it.

Best of luck against Kilkenny, I think you'll need lots of it.

O Riain · 25-07-2016 10:03AM

Anyone who is calling for the brick to be dropped did not watch his masterclass on the telly. The way the man holds the ball up waiting for others to arirve/make a run and then the intricate little flicks or passes were spectacular yesterday. His vision is beyond belief.

He may not be able to play a full 70 minutes but the man should be the first name on the starting 15 and only taken off when he has to come off.

An absolute Goliath of a player.

O Riain · 25-07-2016 10:15AM

wats the craic wrote: »

robopaddy2 wrote: »

My da's bigger than your da

we will see sunday san when we bait ya lol

lol

deiseach · 25-07-2016 10:18AM

*clicks on wats the craic's profile*

I think he should stick to the thread about the price of milk.

Whiplash85 · 25-07-2016 10:55AM

Wexford were awful yesterday. Standing up and hitting the ball with big windmill like swings. Their hurling was so slow at times. You dont get space like that against Waterford. They have had a huge turnover of players so maybe if they get them back fit again they can kick on next year. It might be the right time for Liam Dunne to walk away. He has probably carried them as far as he can and made them competitive again.

Just did a quick calculation last night. Waterford have averaged 1 goal every 130 minutes in all competitive fixtures this year (league and championship). It is not enough and will not be enough against Kilkenny. Yesterday was the day to let the shackles off and go for a couple of goals especially in the last 15 minutes but nothing changed. I was thinking that Waterford must have some plan that has been kept under wraps and are not showing their cards. I hope for your sake this is the case. Otherwise it will be another facile KK win. However Waterford have nothing to lose now and no one will give Waterford a prayer which could suit ye.

Tipp Galway game is really a coin toss. Cannot fathom how Tipp are 4/9 to win. Galway were very impressive yesterday and the scoreline flattered Clare a little. That game should be a brilliant spectacle and could be the game of the championship.

mountgomery burns · 25-07-2016 01:33PM

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

Whiplash85 · 25-07-2016 01:35PM

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

Jack Guiney would be a huge addition and another ball winner able to take a score but I think himself and Dunne had a falling out.

mountgomery burns · 25-07-2016 01:39PM

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Jack Guiney would be a huge addition and another ball winner able to take a score but I think himself and Dunne had a falling out.

He has talent but he's not interested. He was only a bit part player in 2014 sure and for the ability he has that should never be the case but it was commitment that was the issue.

In fairness, wouldn't blame anyone for it. The game has gone mad in that respect.

blue note · 25-07-2016 01:44PM

Is everyone united that we'd want Galway in the final over Tipp? I'd kind of like Tipp myself, think we owe them a beating!

PTH2009 · 25-07-2016 02:00PM

There was a very very loud wexford supporter behind me yesterday who screamed the whole way through the match celebrating a wexford point like they won the all ireland

:D. Thought he was going to go into cardiac arrest when they got back to within 5 points

Expecting Croke Park to be desirted but can feel a lot of cats fans will travel up just to laugh at our expense. Waterford fans wont travel. Dublin vs Limerick in the minor is the opening game

Were like Westmeath going into the Leinster football final dis year and last (they had a 2% chance of beating Dublin). If u told me we would get a game in Croke Park Jan/Feb last id have taken your hand off. Go up and enjoy the day, its a short enough journey, in a fab stadium and against the best

Hopefully we will get a league game vs Dublin there next spring as were due an away game against them

bruschi · 25-07-2016 02:15PM

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

first team, would be hard to quantify really. Andrew Shore and David Redmond both were starters last year. As was Ian Byrne, Kevin foley and Guiney (although sparingly). The latter 3 all off the panel for non injury related reasons. Liam Ryan was injured most of this year and only came in yesterday for Breen who had meningitis. Then Podge Doran was missing yesterday who started all this year and last. After that you'd be mainly talking panel depth players like Shane Tompkins, Shaun Murphy, Tomas Waters has never really come back since his cruciate injury, Aidan Nolan was missing most of the year. And sure Lee Chin wasnt 100% and got injured early on yesterdya too. But thats an awful lot of players to be missing that could be involved.

edit: thats not to use the above injury list as an excuse for yesterday either. Just to paint a positive picture that we could have a much stronger panel and with the right management could start to go in the right direction again. Even if we had all of those playing healthy all year long, I still dont think we would have won that game due to the approach and manner in which the team played.

meathhurler48 · 25-07-2016 02:32PM

PTH

We have enough of your pessimism. Not questioning that you are a great Deise supporter but your constant pessimistic tone is starting to grate. You even had Wexford to win by six? This team needs all our supporters to be positive. If you can't be that, for whatever reason, maybe you are best off this thread for the next two weeks.

We have two huge games coming up and it's all shoulders to the wheel. Here's to the 21's on Wednesday for starters.

Psychedelic · 25-07-2016 02:39PM

I'll be going to the semi but to be honest I'd rather watch from home, first time I've ever felt that.

We know the same team will line out (unless there's injuries), they will play the same tactics, with the same long distance shooting and wides. All very predictable and dull. That's what so annoying too, the management and players are not learning from their mistakes.

Last year the system looked like it could evolve and improve with time as the players got more experience and physicality, and there were some nice moves at times, but it's the same crap in every game now. I hope the team pulls out an unexpected amazing performance against KK but sadly I cannot see it happening.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1