Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

cul beag

I'm going to try to be the eternal optimist and say that all may not be lost against Kilkenny. McGrath acknowledged yesterday that with 61 mins gone in last year's semi final we were only a few points down. Now given the amount of possession /wides we are shooting,maybe just maybe we might be alot closer than people think if we convert some of these against them! We are definitely at our most dangerous when written off and I fully understand we have to hit the ground running but lets say we go in at halftime 4 pts up,we stifle the expected KK onslaught at the start of the second half then maybe,just maybe they realise we're not going away! I would say though for this to happen we'd have to push more men forward probably to our expense at the back but at least have a go! I think Cody will push the likes of Colin Fennelly in on De Burca to stop his play making role so if Darragh Fives is injured then we have a slight problem. Yes KK are a good side but think back to Galway in last year's final they had them on the ropes and totally collapsed in the second half. Outside of Paul Murphy their fullback line isn't world class and can be got at and id play Curran and Shane Bennett in there to utilise their pace. They will earmark Brick again as our go to man from puckouts and sniff that out so we need to have another option for socky to hit. It will be alot closer than people think I just think that the longer we stay in the game the more confident we'll get but our system will have to change. I'm banking on McGrath coming up with something unexpected because I'm sure he must have learned from last year's game and given KK aren't starting games quickly then why can't we capitalise and go for the juggler early? They will be expecting us to set up defensively from the start so why not change it up and put them thinking?

Whiplash85

meathhurler48 wrote: »

PTH

We have enough of your pessimism. Not questioning that you are a great Deise supporter but your constant pessimistic tone is starting to grate. You even had Wexford to win by six? This team needs all our supporters to be positive. If you can't be that, for whatever reason, maybe you are best off this thread for the next two weeks.

We have two huge games coming up and it's all shoulders to the wheel. Here's to the 21's on Wednesday for starters.

Says the guy with 15 posts to his name, which is meathhurler incidentally and who speaks for everyone by using the "royal we". No offence mate but you sound like an unmerciful gob****e full of his self importance and who actually thinks the tone of a post or pessimism could have a negative influence on the team.

crottys lake

I give us a more than a decent chance against Kilkenny. The game will be very tight with little between the sides for long periods. In a way our build up to this match is ideal as it will be very low key and most of the pundits will write us off not to mind our own. Darragh will be a huge loss but Connor Gleeson showed he is some prospect yesterday which was no surprise to us that have been watching him develop in the past few years.

A small tweak to our set up with maybe a surprise element added in will see us push them all the way. Anyone who thinks this game is a foregone conclusion are well wide of the mark.

cul beag

crottys lake wrote: »

I give us a more than a decent chance against Kilkenny. The game will be very tight with little between the sides for long periods. In a way our build up to this match is ideal as it will be very low key and most of the pundits will write us off not to mind our own. Darragh will be a huge loss but Connor Gleeson showed he is some prospect yesterday which was no surprise to us that have been watching him develop in the past few years.

A small tweak to our set up with maybe a surprise element added in will see us push them all the way. Anyone who thinks this game is a foregone conclusion are well wide of the mark.

There must be a final sting in the dying wasp!! Agree with you about Conor Gleeson he looked very comfortable when introduced yesterday. I'm puzzled though why Stephen Bennett isn't starting and only 3rd sub yesterday as well as not seeing any action against Tipp. Hopefully he's unleashed against the cats because he's a match winner if given the proper supply. This game is playing into our barrow,a bit like Galway against Clare yesterday. I think it will be tight and nobody will tip us to win so it couldn't be better!

buck65

Should Maurice Shanahan have been red carded for pulling off his own helmet?
What was that about? Perhaps a wasp got in there? #Mauriceshanahanhelmet

amber69

buck65 wrote: »

Should Maurice Shanahan have been red carded for pulling off his own helmet?
What was that about? Perhaps a wasp got in there? #Mauriceshanahanhelmet

Couldn't believe that at the time, pulled off his own faceguard as he was getting up and then started pointing to it. Don't know about getting a red for it but he should be ashamed of himself.

ObiwanKenoby

I think anyone who believes that we have made progress since last year – after the 21pt humiliation that Tipp inflicted on us and the mediocre display yesterday – and believe that by some miracle that we might beat KK - is optimistic in the extreme. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
One recent poster said something along the lines of: “to hell with the hurling purists, such as Eddie Brennan and Shefflin, who say we need to get rid of the system to have a chance of beating the KK and Tipp. Well, as far as I can see, the vast majority of analysts – Cummins, Sheedy, Jamesie, Loughnane etc etc – are saying pretty much the same thing.
I think the point being made in an article by PMO’Sullivan in The Examiner on Saturday is still relevant even though we beat Wexford. He was basically pointing out that the system has to be queried as: last year the U21s were 1/3 favourites to beat Clare. They went out and played with practically a mirror image of the system still being deployed by the seniors and lost by 2pts. But, with a new manager and more or less the same bunch of players, last week, they went out and played offensively – with some style and conviction – and hurled Clare off the pitch, beating them by 18pts.
It is my opinion that many of us are now only beginning to realise that deep down we know that if we persist with this system and go out in the semi, and play the way we did against Wexford yesterday, KK will destroy us.
We don’t necessarily have to go orthodox 15 on 15 – we can still use a sweeper – Galway did yesterday successfully against Clare. But like Galway, we need to commit more men – who can score goals, like Stephen Bennett, if he’s available, and P Curran forward. What have we got to lose at this stage?
The hail-mary, hit from 60 yards and hope approach, with no one inside in a better position to pass to, is not going to work against KK- we all know this. (And there have been many other examples in games this year where we racked up ridiculous wide counts: KK league game, first league final game, and Munster Final). The system is stifling the highly-talented hurlers we have. A glaring example of this are the seven wides shot by Austin Gleeson yesterday. If we stick with that approach in the semi, the likelihood is KK will inflict a heavy defeat and even more scars on our squad that might take a long time to heal.

deisechap09

Echoing alot of posters here but yesterday was definitely the most difficult to watch 10 point victory for us to watch I can remember. Im not sure we played any better than against Tipp, only for the opposition were far inferior.

Hard to know why we didnt push on and have a proper go up front, I am beginning to feel sorry for likes of Shane Bennett and Curran at this point. The way we set up needs runners and as much as I rate Maurice, Pauric and Brick there isnt room for all 3. Personally, I would take Maurice out, starting Dunford in the current set up. Dunfords running from deep in sorely missed in my view.

Watching the second game closely with both playing sweepers there was no sign of the hail marys from either side (least nowhere near as often). I actually dont blame Gleeson or whoever for these shots as often they arent a bad option. The problem with it is on off-days, there is no alternative. Both Clare and Galway had forwards pretty much parked on either end line providing options. This something we dont do, regularly their is 1 man inside who ends up around 30 - 35 metres out before they get ball in hand. Our support play has also dropped massively even from last year. It seems like a huge amount of thought has been put into a defensive structure, but going forward we really are toothless with the current formation.

However, we definitely have a chance against KK if we can get our belief back. I would bring back Moran in place of D Fives(if injured) with Dunford going to MF, C Gleeson for coughlan. Up front, Id like to see Stephen Bennett in for Maurice and maybe Devine for Curran. Additionally id like to see Gleeson settle in a half forward role for the entire game, this free role isn't getting the best out of him in my opinion.

Motivator

amber69 wrote: »

Couldn't believe that at the time, pulled off his own faceguard as he was getting up and then started pointing to it. Don't know about getting a red for it but he should be ashamed of himself.

He was alerting the referee to the fact that his faceguard was being interfered with & then had it broken. The thing was broken & he pulled at it then ffs

Dick phelan

It's an absolute joke that the exact same team will probably start against KK after two poor displays, must be so hard for fringe players to see the abysmal display against Tipp and yet they still don't get a chance, where's the pressure to perform for the first 15 if there is no competition for places. Conor Gleeson, Stephen Bennett and imo Dunford should all start the next day something has to change, what is it they say about insanity, it's doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, we have zero and i mean zero chance of beating Kilkenny if we play the same system we have all year.

Dick phelan

Anyone know the story with Darragh Fives, i didn't see it yesterday he must have been injured to be taken off so early?

ObiwanKenoby

Dick phelan wrote: »

Anyone know the story with Darragh Fives, i didn't see it yesterday he must have been injured to be taken off so early?

Recurrence of his quad injury, unlikely he'll be fit for semi unfortunately..

PTH2009

balls

forecast of rain for Wednesday night. Rain would suite Tipp better i think

hopefully our firepower will be enough, Stephen Bennett will want to make a huge statement i imagine

mickmackey1

Strange how things have gone pear-shaped so quickly, defensively ye look very brittle and nervous. Could get an almighty tonking against the Cats I fear, similar to '08 :eek:

meathhurler48

Whiplash
Look at the FULL username and work it out. Since when does the number of posts define somebody. I suspect that I have seen a lot more Waterford hurling than yourself.

hurler on de ditch

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

NO

dishdash

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Strange how things have gone pear-shaped so quickly, defensively ye look very brittle and nervous. Could get an almighty tonking against the Cats I fear, similar to '08 :eek:

I think another heavy defeat this season could damage this team psychologically. Apart from anything they have to believe that they can beat the Tipps and Kilkennys of this world at the business end of the championship. There's nothing like a couple of thrashings to knock that belief out of players- at any grade of hurling. Theyre good lads but they'd be better to come back next year having learned a bit than keep going.
Based on yesterdays shambles I'd be in favour of a knockout competition. Waterford would have been better exiting after the Munster final. Neither Wexford nor Waterford could have a chance of realistically beat both Tipp and Kilkenny in 2016 to win an AI, ... so it begs the question of the value of them continuing in the championship?? To be cannon fodder??

Wouldn't it be better to let players get back to their clubs. Tis the time for club hurling now not in the lashing rain and muck of October or November

hurler on de ditch

cul beag wrote: »

I'm going to try to be the eternal optimist and say that all may not be lost against Kilkenny. McGrath acknowledged yesterday that with 61 mins gone in last year's semi final we were only a few points down. Now given the amount of possession /wides we are shooting,maybe just maybe we might be alot closer than people think if we convert some of these against them! We are definitely at our most dangerous when written off and I fully understand we have to hit the ground running but lets say we go in at halftime 4 pts up,we stifle the expected KK onslaught at the start of the second half then maybe,just maybe they realise we're not going away! I would say though for this to happen we'd have to push more men forward probably to our expense at the back but at least have a go! I think Cody will push the likes of Colin Fennelly in on De Burca to stop his play making role so if Darragh Fives is injured then we have a slight problem. Yes KK are a good side but think back to Galway in last year's final they had them on the ropes and totally collapsed in the second half. Outside of Paul Murphy their fullback line isn't world class and can be got at and id play Curran and Shane Bennett in there to utilise their pace. They will earmark Brick again as our go to man from puckouts and sniff that out so we need to have another option for socky to hit. It will be alot closer than people think I just think that the longer we stay in the game the more confident we'll get but our system will have to change. I'm banking on McGrath coming up with something unexpected because I'm sure he must have learned from last year's game and given KK aren't starting games quickly then why can't we capitalise and go for the juggler early? They will be expecting us to set up defensively from the start so why not change it up and put them thinking?

I suppose the game against kk in last years semi was over a lot earlier than 61 minutes ,as far as i am concerned ,we went in 2 points down at half time ,within a few mins of the second half that deficit was out to 4,GAME OVER ,If you remember all the kk pucks outs not one of them were down the bricks side of the field ,mc Grath does not do unexpected because he has learned nothing from last year let alone this ,you also say KK are a good side ,well i know they are a great side ,going for another three in a row ,also they have won more all Irelands in the last 2 years as we did in the last 130 years

robopaddy2

At least all the keyboard warriors from other counties who came on here to stick the knife in after the Munster final seem to have dispersed after Sunday s win!


Munster u21 final to look forward to now and then an AI semi in 2 weeks. We could be in worse places all the same. I said here a couple weeks ago that a win for the u21s would be bigger than beating Wexford and I still stand over that. A win will almost guarantee us an AI appearance. For a county like ours starved of success it would give everyone a huge lift.

blueflame

Having been in Thurles on Sunday, and having had the opportunity to watch a recording of the full of the game last night there are a couple of things I feel need commenting on. Firstly despite what i said yesterday about most of the shooting from distance being as a result of there being no options inside, well watching the replay last night, there were in fact options available a lot of the time but we seemed panicked into going for the score. Second thing was during the commentary, Donal O'Grady who was giving the sideline view, commented that Derek and Dan were screaming at the players, particularly in the first half, to let the ball inside rather than shooting.

This poses a number of disturbing questions such as, are the players not listening to the management? is one thing being drummed in during training and then trying to change it on match day? are forwards falling back through fear, or is it through frustration? Either way what was blatantly obvious last night, is that we have some tremendously skillful forwards, who are capable of winning their own ball, and are capable of scoring and creating scoring opportunities, including goals, but for some reason we seem more intent on withdrawing further and further out the field as the game progresses. In the first half on Sunday, Shane Bennett robbed a ball off the corner back on the end line and Maurice blocked down an attempted clearance from the Wexford Keeper both resulting in scores one of which could have been a goal. This is the kind of pressure and presence we need inside the opposition 21 and we need to sustain throughout the game. In the second half there was no pressure or presence whatsoever like this, and Derek has to identify why.

Is his general negativity feeding into the team while not realising how negative he is being? is there a fear factor based on previous beatings? or is there a lack of belief or a lack of maturity? Whatever the reason we have to address it and quickly. Some of the scores we picked off last Sunday were absolutely out of the top drawer, we have a young enough side, full of energy with bags of energy and pace in reserve on the bench, we just need to get that enthusiasm back and start using it in the right places. If it is that the players are falling back against the wishes of the management, time to do something about it Iron this out and I give us a right chance of giving KK a real rattle, fail to address this and we will invite KK onto us, they will most likely crucify us and Paul Murphy will probably end up as man of the match.

The time is now!!!!!!!

deiseach

I'm all for the power for positive thinking - for players. As a supporter, fatalism is a necessary defence mechanism.

The blue blaa

Can i put this question to the posters on here, just a simple Yes or No..
Opinions if you wish please feel free!!!

If Kilkenny beat us as easily as Tipp did.
Does Derek & co. merit another term in charge??

blue note

The blue blaa wrote: »

Can i put this question to the posters on here, just a simple Yes or No..
Opinions if you wish please feel free!!!

If Kilkenny beat us as easily as Tipp did.
Does Derek & co. merit another term in charge??

No. If we lose by 21 points they don't. But if we lose by 5 people will be coming in here saying we were no closer to kk than we were to tipp.

So if we lose by more than 20 points they don't, I'll leave it at that.

PTH2009

The blue blaa wrote: »

Can i put this question to the posters on here, just a simple Yes or No..
Opinions if you wish please feel free!!!

If Kilkenny beat us as easily as Tipp did.
Does Derek & co. merit another term in charge??

50/50

If he is to get another term he needs to change things up

Things are not going to get easier in 2017

He might walk away, if so who would get the job ??

The blue blaa

blue note wrote: »

No. If we lose by 21 points they don't. But if we lose by 5 people will be coming in here saying we were no closer to kk than we were to tipp.

So if we lose by more than 20 points they don't, I'll leave it at that.

Thank for your reply and keeping it straight to the point..

Deskjockey

The blue blaa wrote: »

Can i put this question to the posters on here, just a simple Yes or No..
Opinions if you wish please feel free!!!

If Kilkenny beat us as easily as Tipp did.
Does Derek & co. merit another term in charge??

If be are beaten by 21 points then Derek will have to go.

They won't lose by 21 points though

tomwaterford

The blue blaa wrote: »

Can i put this question to the posters on here, just a simple Yes or No..
Opinions if you wish please feel free!!!

If Kilkenny beat us as easily as Tipp did.
Does Derek & co. merit another term in charge??

No...it will mark team going backwards when it's a year older and stronger

hurler on de ditch

blue note wrote: »

No. If we lose by 21 points they don't. But if we lose by 5 people will be coming in here saying we were no closer to kk than we were to tipp.

So if we lose by more than 20 points they don't, I'll leave it at that.

Ridiculous really, it all starts with someone coming in with a three year plan ,and on it goes, the next fella comes in with a three year plan,and the next ,and the next, that would be a 12 year plan and **** all to show for it, but as they say I don't blame Mc Grath, I blame the fellas that gave him the job, 2 all Ireland's in 130 odd years ,its not a coincidence

carter10

Just a quick question Yes/No

How many posters have managed an adult team?

Whiplash85

meathhurler48 wrote: »

Whiplash
Look at the FULL username and work it out. Since when does the number of posts define somebody. I suspect that I have seen a lot more Waterford hurling than yourself.

Point taken. You have undoubtedly seen greats like Cheasty and Grimes in the flesh and everything in between up to and including stalwarts like McGrath, Hartley, Browne and Flynn. Its a pity the current Waterford players aren't allowed to express themselves like their predecessors. You have been lucky to witness Waterford win an AI but many of the posters here will never have that day in the sun with these tactics. Many people will say the the end justifies the means as the Donegal club game which ended 0-3 to 0-2 the other night will attest. But sooner or later teams will find their way around these tactics and the system will be akin to the emperor with no clothes.

I see many similarities between current Tipp football team and Waterford hurlers in terms of age profile and underage success but thats where it ends. Clare and Tipp footballers have done really well against teams in higher Divisions and with huge tradition by going out and attacking teams and trying to outscore rather than trying to stangle, nullify and contain.

Its an interesting question of what qualifies as a successful season for Waterford now and what is a pass mark for Derek McGrath and backroom staff. Is a moral victory keeping it tight and ultimately going down by 5 or 6 points passable. I dont think so. another year will be gone in the players development happy to be second best.