Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Seth Brundle · 24-06-2016 11:03AM

I've wondered if the bag was a "caring" event, insofar as it wasn't just fecked into a bin or a ditch.
If so, would this have been a more maternal (i.e. female but not his mother!) action or an action by someone who knew him well?

Going Forward · 24-06-2016 11:08AM

kbannon wrote: »

I've wondered if the bag was a "caring" event, insofar as it wasn't just fecked into a bin or a ditch.
If so, would this have been a more maternal (i.e. female but not his mother!) action or an action by someone who knew him well?

It doesn't tally with also seeing fit to leave it unexplained and causing confusion for 30 years.

Fleawuss · 24-06-2016 11:59AM

Going Forward wrote: »

It doesn't tally with also seeing fit to leave it unexplained and causing confusion for 30 years.

Leaving it back served a purpose for the killer or someone who was linked to the killer. We'll have to wait for the current investigations to run their course: if they can establish Cooke as the killer through the claims made against him then that will be some peace at last.

tayto lover · 24-06-2016 12:00PM

Esel wrote: »

This is the 'conspiracy'.

Don't think so.

http://wikidiff.com/idea/conspiracy

LorMal · 24-06-2016 12:55PM

Pretzill wrote: »

I had a school bag not unlike Philips - though books were getting heavier - the time predated the hold all back pack type.

Drop a bag like that on the floor and books would easily fall out of it. In a struggle it's not inconceivable that those missing books just fell out of the bag.

Why put the bag back without them? Maybe the perpetrator didn't notice the books until after. Why put the bag back near the scene of the child's disappearance? Maybe the perpetrator didn't, maybe a witness did - a naïve attempt to show that Philip wasn't returning?

I haven't a clue. But my guess is there's evidence on that bag and would have been evidence on those missing books -

I agree. My school bag was the same - Alpha Bargains special (for all you fellow oldies). My books could come spilling out if I dropped it.
I think trying to read any message into the types of books missing is a conspiracy theory too far.
I think you are right - probably spilled out and the killer only noticed them later.

Fleawuss · 24-06-2016 01:57PM

LorMal wrote: »

I agree. My school bag was the same - Alpha Bargains special (for all you fellow oldies). My books could come spilling out if I dropped it.
I think trying to read any message into the types of books missing is a conspiracy theory too far.
I think you are right - probably spilled out and the killer only noticed them later.

Sounds very plausible if there was a struggle. But raises interesting questions too: if Philip got into a car without a struggle (because no books were found on the street) then that tells you something.

I came across something online and lost it again about a couple who were driving to the airport the day he disappeared and saw a boy and matching his description talking in the window of a car to someone. They thought it looked strange and noted the number but when they got back from their trip they couldn't find the piece of paper with the number

Kamili · 24-06-2016 02:27PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Sounds very plausible if there was a struggle. But raises interesting questions too: if Philip got into a car without a struggle (because no books were found on the street) then that tells you something.

I came across something online and lost it again about a couple who were driving to the airport the day he disappeared and saw a boy and matching his description talking in the window of a car to someone. They thought it looked strange and noted the number but when they got back from their trip they couldn't find the piece of paper with the number

that was a guy and it was in the broadsheet piece

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

Mr Cummins states that some weeks after the disappearance of Philip Cairns a man contacted the Gardaí in Rathfarnham and told them he had been driving along Ballyroan Road from Ballyboden Road between 1.20pm and 1.30pm on Thursday, October 23, 1986 – the time Phillip is believed to have been abducted. Close to Ballyboden Road he noticed a red car, which he described as being badly parked and obstructing traffic.

He said he had seen a boy wearing a grey school jumper and carrying a bag approaching the front passenger door of the parked car. The witness had been angered by the way the car was parked and told the gardaí he had written down the registration number of the car. However, he no longer had the number.

He had gone on to the airport, and while he was away his wife had cleaned out his car and the number was lost. It was only after he learned of the disappearance of Philip Cairns that he remembered about the badly parked car.

LorMal · 24-06-2016 03:47PM

Very unlikely he was forced into the car. It was during the day, busy road. He would have struggled, shouted etc. He must have been comfortable to get into the car.
Therefore he either know the abductor or he trusted him. He would have trusted a priest (we were all more innocent then) or maybe if there was another child in the car (as suggested earlier in this thread).

intheclouds · 24-06-2016 03:56PM

LorMal wrote: »

Very unlikely he was forced into the car. It was during the day, busy road. He would have struggled, shouted etc. He must have been comfortable to get into the car.
Therefore he either know the abductor or he trusted him. He would have trusted a priest (we were all more innocent then) or maybe if there was another child in the car (as suggested earlier in this thread).

Its not really that busy of a road and in the 80s it really wouldnt have been that busy at all.

It is a residential main road with houses overlooking the whole length of it though but in the middle of the day people would be out at work.

Going Forward · 24-06-2016 04:05PM

Kamili wrote: »

that was a guy and it was in the broadsheet piece

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

It was reported as being a red car the same colour as Cookes at the time.

Kamili · 24-06-2016 04:51PM

Going Forward wrote: »

It was reported as being a red car the same colour as Cookes at the time.

Thought he drove a white Jaguar?
http://www.hotpress.com/Jimmy-Savile/news/Convicted-Paedophile-Eamon-Cooke-Knew-Jimmy-Saville/17487149.html?page_no=2

philstar · 24-06-2016 05:03PM

^^^^^^^^

maybe he had two cars?

LorMal · 24-06-2016 05:19PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Its not really that busy of a road and in the 80s it really wouldnt have been that busy at all.

It is a residential main road with houses overlooking the whole length of it though but in the middle of the day people would be out at work.

I take your point. However, wouldn't it be very difficult to drive away with a struggling resisting teenager in the car?

Seth Brundle · 24-06-2016 05:25PM

intheclouds wrote: »

It is a residential main road with houses overlooking the whole length of it though but in the middle of the day people would be out at work.

In all likelihood, most of the women from the area would have been at home. Jobs were still scarce those days and most wives worked in the home.
IMO any scuffle would have been heard by a number of women.

sabat · 24-06-2016 05:30PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Its not really that busy of a road and in the 80s it really wouldnt have been that busy at all.

There was a huge amount of traffic on the road back then before various local bypasses and the M50 were completed, although you wouldn't think so from looking at it now. The N7 finished at Templeogue Bridge so a lot of national traffic used it to reach most of the southside.

evolving_doors · 24-06-2016 05:39PM

LorMal wrote: »

Very unlikely he was forced into the car. It was during the day, busy road. He would have struggled, shouted etc. He must have been comfortable to get into the car.
Therefore he either know the abductor or he trusted him. He would have trusted a priest (we were all more innocent then) or maybe if there was another child in the car (as suggested earlier in this thread).

Dunno about the forced abduction theory, there was another incident on the jduffy of cookes neighbour who was confronted in distressed state by a crying teenager at her door saying that 'he's after me', and then the girl fled before they could find out anymore. I reckon she got invited to his house under false pretences and went willingly before it turned sour.
Also an employee of the station told Joe he walked in on Cooke in a compromising position with a teenage girl, then the guy was fired in a few weeks, he reckoned cook also was clever enough to surround himself with public figures (he got Fr. Michael Cleary a slot in his station).
His modus operandi was using his words to getting his way, so hence he probably talked a lot of young people into 'going along with him '.
What a sicko, I hope some closure can come out of these revelations, but I'd be hesitant in condemming people who suffered at his hands but stayed silent.
We know these paedophiles survive on silence and use fxxxxxd up psychology to ensure victims feel guilty.

Allyall · 24-06-2016 05:51PM

An article about Cooke here (Nothing to do with Philip Cairns). I hadn't seen it before, although had heard most of what is in it, but it seems to be better informed.
Thought I'd link it for anyone that may want to read it - https://comeheretome.com/2016/06/15/eamonn-cooke-archive-mentions/

Stasi 2.0 · 24-06-2016 06:34PM

Think someone posted that earlier. The 1973 "snooper" newspaper letter was kinda bizzare though. Surprised it even got published.

Going Forward · 24-06-2016 07:14PM

Kamili wrote: »

Thought he drove a white Jaguar?
http://www.hotpress.com/Jimmy-Savile/news/Convicted-Paedophile-Eamon-Cooke-Knew-Jimmy-Saville/17487149.html?page_no=2

Sorry you're right.

I could have sworn I read that Cooke had a red car, but when I went to look it up I came a cropper!

The white Jaguar is green in this report:

http://utv.ie/News/2016/06/21/Call-for-probe-into-Garda-collaboration-with-paedophile-60586

Going Forward · 24-06-2016 07:18PM

A news article from 1985.

Cooke's Radio Dublin fundraising with the Navy for the ISPCC....

"CITY CENTRE SHOPPING in Dublin last Saturday afternoon (June 8th) was enlivened by a parade of uniformed Irish Navy sailors pushing a float in the shape of a boat and energetically colllecting money for the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.

A most worthy cause, of course, which we were pleased to note seemed welllsupported by the promenading citiizenry whose attention was drawn to the colourful procession by pop music emanating from a loudspeaker car which accompanied the intrepid seaafarers.

The car, as the advertising hoarrdings affixed to its sides and roof attested, represented Captain Eamonn Cookes Radio Dublin.

Recalling that it is supposedly the function of the navy to sink pirates rather than join with them publicly -- even for charitable purposes - we phoned Radio Dublin to ask the Capptain how he had managed to lure a section of the State's armed forces in to association with his unlicensed operation.

Nothing to it, he explained. He hadn't approached the navy at all. The navy had approached Radio Dubblin."

http://politico.ie/archive/wigmore-16-june-1985-thomas-donnelly-david-norris-rte-coverage-mcguigan-pedroza

Stasi 2.0 · 24-06-2016 07:38PM

He used to run a Christmas Toy appeal and an Easter Egg appeal every year too.

Its possible that the Jaguar was resprayed. It was reportedly a 1958 model but he was still driving it in the 1990's

Fleawuss · 25-06-2016 09:51AM

Kamili wrote: »

that was a guy and it was in the broadsheet piece

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

Thanks again. A clear description of what the man claimed. It doesn't sound like what you'd imagine an abduction to be. A busy road. Badly parked and attracting attention. The boy approaching the passenger side. It sounds like asking directions, offering a lift to someone you know. Was this car ever eliminated from enquiries? If it was innocent surely a driver would have come forward? I keep going back to the quality of investigation done in this case.

brooke 2 · 25-06-2016 05:16PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Thanks again. A clear description of what the man claimed. It doesn't sound like what you'd imagine an abduction to be. A busy road. Badly parked and attracting attention. The boy approaching the passenger side. It sounds like asking directions, offering a lift to someone you know. Was this car ever eliminated from enquiries? If it was innocent surely a driver would have come forward? I keep going back to the quality of investigation done in this case.

I am really intrigued as to why this does not seem to have received more attention. In one report I read, the man who spotted the car said he wrote down the registration number on a piece of paper which his wife had subsequently cleaned out of his pocket when she was doing the clothes washing, while he was away on business. In another account, I saw that he had remembered some letters, z? u? and some numbers. Along with the colour and make of the car, plus the info re the registration, you would think there might have been some results if these details had been publicised or
if there had been a garda checkpoint to track it down.

26-06-2016 10:47AM

TV3 are broadcasting a documentary about Eamonn Cooke at 10pm on Tuesday (28th June).

Fleawuss · 26-06-2016 11:01AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

I am really intrigued as to why this does not seem to have received more attention. In one report I read, the man who spotted the car said he wrote down the registration number on a piece of paper which his wife had subsequently cleaned out of his pocket when she was doing the clothes washing, while he was away on business. In another account, I saw that he had remembered some letters, z? u? and some numbers. Along with the colour and make of the car, plus the info re the registration, you would think there might have been some results if these details had been publicised or
if there had been a garda checkpoint to track it down.

Given the era of those in positions of power being above the law I want to know was this car traced and was someone ruled out of the enquiries on the basis of "sure he never would do that, he's a (insert position here)." If it wasn't traced what effort was put into it? This investigation needs to be held up to the light of day. Maybe if Cooke can be linked to remains all this will go away.

Going Forward · 26-06-2016 07:22PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Given the era of those in positions of power being above the law I want to know was this car traced and was someone ruled out of the enquiries on the basis of "sure he never would do that, he's a (insert position here)." If it wasn't traced what effort was put into it? This investigation needs to be held up to the light of day. Maybe if Cooke can be linked to remains all this will go away.

The investigation??

You're right, was the car even investigated?

Never heard a word about it.

When you read about the car and then read Jimmy Guerin's claims it points to someone known to Philip.

The driver of the red/wine Japanese car that a witness saw talking to Philip.

"October 28, 1989: It is stated that the car driven by Philip’s abductor was a red/wine Mazda or Toyota car."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/philip-cairns-was-killed-to-protect-his-sex-abuser-26245411.html

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

Going Forward · 26-06-2016 07:22PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Given the era of those in positions of power being above the law I want to know was this car traced and was someone ruled out of the enquiries on the basis of "sure he never would do that, he's a (insert position here)." If it wasn't traced what effort was put into it? This investigation needs to be held up to the light of day. Maybe if Cooke can be linked to remains all this will go away.

The investigation??

You're right, was the car even investigated?

Never heard a word about it.

When you read about the car and then read Jimmy Guerin's claims it points to someone known to Philip.

The driver of the red/wine Japanese car that a witness saw talking to Philip.

"October 28, 1989: It is stated that the car driven by Philip’s abductor was a red/wine Mazda or Toyota car."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/philip-cairns-was-killed-to-protect-his-sex-abuser-26245411.html

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

Fleawuss · 26-06-2016 08:21PM

Going Forward wrote: »

The investigation??

You're right, was the car even investigated?

Never heard a word about it.

When you read about the car and then read Jimmy Guerin's claims it points to someone known to Philip.

The driver of the red/wine Japanese car that a witness saw talking to Philip.

"October 28, 1989: It is stated that the car driven by Philip’s abductor was a red/wine Mazda or Toyota car."

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/philip-cairns-was-killed-to-protect-his-sex-abuser-26245411.html

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

I read those again. What an utter mess.

Going Forward · 26-06-2016 11:48PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

I read those again. What an utter mess.

There's a recurring theme, the mention of being "deeply religious".

Philip was, as is his mother.

Broadsheet gave some mention to, as they term him, "Kilkenny man Jim Cairns".

This is the the person who instigated contact with Austin Currie as far back as 1996 making claims of widespread abuse in the Kilkenny area (it rambles on) after claiming to have been told about it by Dick Moore.

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/news/europe/ireland/090500a.html

"Next I was "directed " to a religious councellor in the area by my former landlady. His name was Dick Moore"this was to prove fatefull", Bagnalstown, Co Carlow"

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/paedophile-ring-preying-on-children-in-the-south-east-26240944.html

"The Sunday Independent has also learned that a garda investigation was undertaken in the Carlow/Kilkenny region, where homes under the care of the Dept of Education, as well as several parochial houses in the area, were subject to forensic examination.

One of the gardai involved in the investigation said a government building in Dublin, which housed offices belonging to the Dept of Education, was also being investigated.

The Sunday Independent has also learned of allegations that children under the care of the Department who were sent to Dublin for assessment were abused. However, while a detailed investigation was carried out in the mid-Nineties, the investigation was discontinued and, according to a Garda source, no file was presented to the DPP."

and now in 2016, last February, is still in the news.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/24/grace-noonan-and-monageer/

Jim Cairns' ramblings also claim that

"In November 1996 I sent a second statement of my information concerning the "Born Again Christians" and their activities in Kilkenny to Austen Currie TD .

At first Currie took the information seriously but after a while his attitude changed and became indifferent and told me he was no longer interested in the information concerning the "Born Again Christians" and their activities in Kilkenny. He told me in no uncertain terms not to phone him again and he was only interested in his own constituents in Dublin .

This is curious because he was the Fina Gael Government cabinet minister for Health at that time and part of my statement concerned child abuse , murders and missing persons."

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=9957

It's hard to get away from the religion aspect of things.
Deeply religious, prayer groups, born again christians, the church.

Broadsheet also says, according to Jim Cairns:

"Kilkenny man Jim Cairns posts about Philip’s death claiming that he may have been abducted and killed by a quasi-satanic group masquerading as a Born Again Christian Organisation.

He refers to one such group in Kilkenny and states that one of their members has claimed to have knowledge of what may have happened.

Cairns states that Philip may have come to the attention of this or a related group through his interest in religion and the fact that his mother was from Kilkenny"

"He says that the satchel is a typical ‘false lead’ which he implies are common in satanic cases. He quotes Philip Cairns’ aunt Terry Moore on the Gay Byrne Show as saying that Philip would only have got into a car with someone he trusted and it could be someone close to the immediate family."

Dick Moore, who Jim Cairns mentioned above was interviewed for a book entitled Paranormal Ireland: A journey into the other side of Irish Life:

https://books.google.ie/books?id=MUcYBgAAQBAJ&lpg=PT59&ots=ZECj8tm9Hl&dq=Dick%20Moore%2C%20Bagenalstown%20%2C%20County%20Carlow&pg=PT59#v=onepage&q=moore&f=true

Claims to have performed excorcisms of sorts.....so it would seem he knew what he was talking about back in the 90s that formed the basis for Jim Cairns to be concerned about cults.

Allyall · 27-06-2016 01:41AM

It literally comes down to which version do you believe (There's no evidence yet to support any of them).
But all of the above has been repeated over and over again many times in the 80's and 90's, and never came to anything.
They were looked at by the Gardaí.

This girl/woman speaking is different. She was a victim of a paedophile that the Gardaí may have looked at before, but there was no evidence to move further.
Unrelated to anything or anyone else that the Gardaí had reason to believe might have been involved.
She didn't volunteer to come forward, her name was given by another victim.
I can't imagine that she has any reason to lie, unless she suffered from something similar to Stockholm syndrome for Paedophiles. Which would make even less sense.

Ballyroan is on the route that Cooke would have taken to three rock mountain (or that direction) to adjust aerials (or whatever the f*ck he was doing up there).
https://goo.gl/maps/ncHakeYpVFv

Cooke acknowledged that Philip was in his car (only to maybe deny it a day later).
The Gardaí believe that they have enough to investigate these allegations further, but may not know the whereabouts of Cookes favourite hiding spots.

If these religious sects/cults operated as free and open as Jim Cairns makes out, then why haven't we heard about many others that died at their hands? Or that are missing, and may have also been taken by them?
I haven't heard of any "quasi-satanic" group member that has been arrested under suspicion of anything (I'm assuming I would remember hearing something like that).

Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Comments