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Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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Comments

  • #872
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    I am going to leave aside the theories that the bag was left back as a taunt.

    Why leave it back 6 days later? What triggered the dumping of the bag? What happened that rattled the killer? Where were the searches at that stage? Who was being questioned? Whoever dumped the bag or caused it to be dumped did so under pressure. Even if it was a diversion what was it a diversion from? The search and investigation must have hit a nerve around then.


  • #873
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    I am going to leave aside the theories that the bag was left back as a taunt.

    Why leave it back 6 days later? What triggered the dumping of the bag? What happened that rattled the killer? Where were the searches at that stage? Who was being questioned? Whoever dumped the bag or caused it to be dumped did so under pressure. Even if it was a diversion what was it a diversion from? The search and investigation must have hit a nerve around then.

    Let's say for instance it was Cooke that ordered one of the young girls he knew to leave it there. He may have had an airtight alibi for the day, and wanted it left there to throw the gardai off scent, which it probably did, probably made them think it was found local by a school child and dumped there.


  • #874
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Let's say for instance it was Cooke that ordered one of the young girls he knew to leave it there. He may have had an airtight alibi for the day, and wanted it left there to throw the gardai off scent, which it probably did, probably made them think it was found local by a school child and dumped there.

    But there is no indication he was even considered by Gardai at the time, afaik.


  • #875
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Its not a conspiracy. I was just wondering why he had the bag home with him.
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I always wondered if he had something in the bag that he may have taken from someone or found and maybe it got him killed.
    This is the 'conspiracy'.

    Not your ornery onager



  • #876
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    But there is no indication he was even considered by Gardai at the time, afaik.

    No there wasn't, but maybe to his mind he left the bag there to ensure they'd never look his direction. Just guessing as to why he may have done that, it it were him.


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  • #877
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    No there wasn't, but maybe to his mind he left the bag there to ensure they'd never look his direction. Just guessing as to why he may have done that, it it were him.

    Well if you drop Cooke and put in A. N. Other the question is why dump it then? What happened to AN Other to make them dump it.


  • #878
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Well if you drop Cooke and put in A. N. Other the question is why dump it then? What happened to AN Other to make them dump it.

    It may have been the easiest place for them to dump it.
    They may have noticed the bag after the incident, and had to dump it. Walked through that lane, placed it down and kept walking.


  • #879
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Allyall wrote: »
    It may have been the easiest place for them to dump it.
    They may have noticed the bag after the incident, and had to dump it. Walked through that lane, placed it down and kept walking.

    The first point means they were probably local. The second point raises another question: they have killed Philip and disposed successfully of the body. How do they suddenly become so incompetent that they haven't disposed of the bag with the body? Why do they have to dump it so openly. What is the pressure? To me it sounds almost like there are two people involved: one a competent type who has the ability to dispose of a body with no trace ever being found ( and that is fairly significant competence) and the second more panicky, different, and having control of the bag independently of the killer.


  • #880
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The first point means they were probably local. The second point raises another question: they have killed Philip and disposed successfully of the body. How do they suddenly become so incompetent that they haven't disposed of the bag with the body? Why do they have to dump it so openly. What is the pressure? To me it sounds almost like there are two people involved: one a competent type who has the ability to dispose of a body with no trace ever being found ( and that is fairly significant competence) and the second more panicky, different, and having control of the bag independently of the killer.

    Could it have been a diversionary move? Dump bag, focus gardai and media attention in a particular area to take pressure off something or someone.


  • #881
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    I am going to leave aside the theories that the bag was left back as a taunt.

    Why leave it back 6 days later? What triggered the dumping of the bag? What happened that rattled the killer? Where were the searches at that stage? Who was being questioned? Whoever dumped the bag or caused it to be dumped did so under pressure. Even if it was a diversion what was it a diversion from? The search and investigation must have hit a nerve around then.

    If it wasn't done as a taunt, isn't the alternative that it was done innocently?

    And if it was done innocently (not by someone forced to be involved) wouldn't an explanation have come out by now?

    My thinking is it was either a taunt or in the possession/ found by someone who didn't want to be involved in giving an explanation and living with that since then.

    Which if they did come across it innocently doesn't seem to make sense; wouldn't you want to just get it off your chest and move on??


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  • #882
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Could it have been a diversionary move? Dump bag, focus gardai and media attention in a particular area to take pressure off something or someone.

    Yes but a diversion from what or who? Who was being questioned? Who was about to be searched? Who felt threatened enough to stage a diversion? I would love to know what point the Garda investigation had reached because even if it was a diversion to dump the bag, a nerve had been hit. What nerve?


  • #883
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Going Forward wrote: »
    If it wasn't done as a taunt, isn't the alternative that it was done innocently?

    And if it was done innocently (not by someone forced to be involved) wouldn't an explanation have come out by now?

    My thinking is it was either a taunt or in the possession/ found by someone who didn't want to be involved in giving an explanation and living with that since then.

    Which if they did come across it innocently doesn't seem to make sense; wouldn't you want to just get it off your chest and move on??

    Found innocently would have been sorted long since. I think. It's not innocent. It's a key.


  • #884
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Allyall wrote: »
    It may have been the easiest place for them to dump it.
    They may have noticed the bag after the incident, and had to dump it. Walked through that lane, placed it down and kept walking.

    A child carrying it might have went unnoticed.

    Assuming it was transported on foot to the general area in the first place.


  • #885
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The first point means they were probably local. The second point raises another question: they have killed Philip and disposed successfully of the body. How do they suddenly become so incompetent that they haven't disposed of the bag with the body? Why do they have to dump it so openly. What is the pressure? To me it sounds almost like there are two people involved: one a competent type who has the ability to dispose of a body with no trace ever being found ( and that is fairly significant competence) and the second more panicky, different, and having control of the bag independently of the killer.

    I was just throwing one, of a million possible scenarios.
    Somebody may have killed him accidentally or otherwise. Panicked, disposed of his body and fretted for a day or so.
    They then realised that they still had his school bag, and that the Gardaí were everywhere and searching houses.
    There's not a chance that they are going to go back to where Philip is now, or it may even be that they're not able to.
    Gardaí are also searching bins, so can't dump it there. Easiest thing to do is drop it in the laneway walking through. They can see if there are people coming from either direction.


  • #886
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Found innocently would have been sorted long since. I think. It's not innocent. It's a key.

    I'd agree.

    Whoever left it there did so deliberately and wanted no thanks for doing it.

    And has felt no need to offer an explanation in the intervening years.

    Then are the missing books relevant?

    Or diversionary....


  • #887
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    It's a small bag. If it really was evidence to be disposed of then it could easily have been done, bag would never have been seen again. The placing of it in a location it would be found easily is deliberate to switch the focus of the investigation imho. I don't think children were involved.


  • #888
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Going Forward wrote: »
    I'd agree.

    Whoever left it there did so deliberately and wanted no thanks for doing it.

    And has felt no need to offer an explanation in the intervening years.

    Then are the missing books relevant?

    Or diversionary....

    The missing books are part of the story. They have to have been taken out of the bag for a reason. They weren't put back. Why not?


  • #889
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's a small bag. If it really was evidence to be disposed of then it could easily have been done, bag would never have been seen again. The placing of it in a location it would be found easily is deliberate to switch the focus of the investigation imho. I don't think children were involved.

    It was evidence if someone was found in possession of it. Again if it was an attempt to switch the focus then someone felt the focus had got too close to them.


  • #890
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The missing books are part of the story. They have to have been taken out of the bag for a reason. They weren't put back. Why not?

    His name was probably on them. They would have to go. A bag can be explained, a missing child's homework copy?


  • #891
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    eviltwin wrote: »
    His name was probably on them. They would have to go. A bag can be explained, a missing child's homework copy?

    If you were leaving back the bag why keep some books which kept the risk of discovery alive. Unless there was no name on them. But why would you want schoolbooks? Or unless they had been disposed of separately. Maybe disposed of with the body. But why those three and not the rest?

    Three missing books. They must have been separated from the rest at some stage. Odd.


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  • #892
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    If you were leaving back the bag why keep some books which kept the risk of discovery alive. Unless there was no name on them. But why would you want schoolbooks? Or unless they had been disposed of separately. Maybe disposed of with the body. But why those three and not the rest?

    Three missing books. They must have been separated from the rest at some stage. Odd.

    They could have been separated for numerous reasons. There was and still is all sorts of theories about cults and sects.
    The Religious books may have been taken out of his bag by him, in their company, and the Geography book may have just made it easier to remove them.
    Those books may have been removed purposefully to start those type of rumours, I'm not sure if it was brought to the publics attention that Philip and his family were deeply religious, prior to the bag being found.


  • #893
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Allyall wrote: »
    They could have been separated for numerous reasons. There was and still is all sorts of theories about cults and sects.
    The Religious books may have been taken out of his bag by him, in their company, and the Geography book may have just made it easier to remove them.
    Those books may have been removed purposefully to start those type of rumours, I'm not sure if it was brought to the publics attention that Philip and his family were deeply religious, prior to the bag being found.

    But what might be the simplest explanation. How many child murdering cults were operating in Dublin? I'm trying to look at it as simply as possible because what happened happened in a quiet area to a schoolboy going back to school with his books.


  • #894
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    But what might be the simplest explanation. How many child murdering cults were operating in Dublin? I'm trying to look at it as simply as possible because what happened happened in a quiet area to a schoolboy going back to school with his books.

    He could have been hit by a drunk/enraged driver pulling out of his driveway.
    Realised their mistake, and bundled Philip into their car.
    Arriving back to the house saw the Schoolbag.

    It may have been opportunistic. He walked past a lot of houses.

    Personally, I'm starting to believe more that Cooke may have had something to do with Philips disappearance.
    The woman that told Angela Copely about the 2nd girl may have known more. But she wanted the girl/woman that had been witness to the events to speak for herself.
    Once she was contacted and spoke to Copely, it seems that was enough to go to the Garda, who then thought it was worth investigating.


  • #895
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Allyall wrote: »
    He could have been hit by a drunk/enraged driver pulling out of his driveway.
    Realised their mistake, and bundled Philip into their car.
    Arriving back to the house saw the Schoolbag.

    It may have been opportunistic. He walked past a lot of houses.

    Personally, I'm starting to believe more that Cooke may have had something to do with Philips disappearance.
    The woman that told Angela Copely about the 2nd girl may have known more. But she wanted the girl/woman that had been witness to the events to speak for herself.
    Once she was contacted and spoke to Copely, it seems that was enough to go to the Garda, who then thought it was worth investigating.

    It's certainly the strongest lead.


  • #896
    Pretzill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,773 ✭✭✭Pretzill


    I had a school bag not unlike Philips - though books were getting heavier - the time predated the hold all back pack type.

    Drop a bag like that on the floor and books would easily fall out of it. In a struggle it's not inconceivable that those missing books just fell out of the bag.

    Why put the bag back without them? Maybe the perpetrator didn't notice the books until after. Why put the bag back near the scene of the child's disappearance? Maybe the perpetrator didn't, maybe a witness did - a naïve attempt to show that Philip wasn't returning?

    I haven't a clue. But my guess is there's evidence on that bag and would have been evidence on those missing books -


  • #897
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    There may be evidence on the bag, but there has been a lot of contamination since it was found.
    Garda touching it.
    Detective? touching it.
    Bag facing away from wall Different photo angle
    Bag facing 5 o'clock from wall
    Bag at a different angle (moved again)
    Photographers may have even been moving it to photograph it

    It looks like the bag was placed on the bend, so the person placing it could see both ways down the lane.
    Anne Devlin Rd view
    Anne Devlin Drive view (I think)
    Both views today


  • #898
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    Missing books - someone giving Philip a lesson?

    I don't mean a schoolteacher, btw.

    There could have been incriminating evidence on those books.

    Not your ornery onager



  • #899
    philstar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭philstar


    Allyall wrote: »
    There may be evidence on the bag, but there has been a lot of contamination since it was found.
    Garda touching it.
    Detective? touching it.

    janey mac :eek: i know it was 1986 but you'd think they'd use gloves when handling it ?


  • #900
    Ted111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Ted111


    Allyall wrote: »
    There may be evidence on the bag, but there has been a lot of contamination since it was found.
    [/URL]


    These are reconstruction and publicity shots.
    They tended not to take selfies while going about everyday work in the eighties.


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  • #901
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Lots riding on the DNA tests on the bag.

    Anyone know if the books were ever fingerprinted or tested?

    I don't recall the contents of the bag ever being tested, I've just read about how the canvas is being tested.


This discussion has been closed.
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