Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Going Forward

LorMal wrote: »

I learned a lot more on here than from that documentary. Poorly put together - stupid background music - very tabloid.

Very.

I think most of it had been leaked cross media in advance.

But I was interested in Ms. Copley going to the Gaurds to no avail about someone named in 2011 as having disposed of the schoolbag.

This kind of programming relies heavily on retired gardai to give it the air of being "endorsed" by someone.

It, like most crime reporting here relies on the hand that feeds it and stays clear of asking why the lead was not investigated and of asking questions.

This serves the journalist well in that it keeps them in the loop, it raises their/or their producer's profile but doesnt serve the victims well.

Was there a mention of the "red/wine car"?

We had visitors and I missed bits of it.

Seth Brundle

Fleawuss wrote: »

Programme did a good job making Cooke a more likely suspect:
Claims he also abused boys
Retired Chief S said Cooke corroborated parts of the girls story (what parts not said)

I don't know what other evidence is there and kept on the quiet by the Gardai (obviously) but given what's in the public domain, I don't think he did it. He was a scumbag that deserved a long and painful death but the allegations and other stories don't seem to line up: the red car, Philip going off with a stranger, the claim of assault on Philip in what would have been a busy house.
I don't know, I just don't see it.

LorMal

Whole areas of evidence were left out including red/wine car

1968

The documentary should have mentioned that Cooke was sentenced to five years imprisonment in 1957 for shooting at Garda.

But more surprisingly, why didn't they mention that Cooke organised a firebomb attack in 1984 and the following 1986 conviction? Especially as the 1986 court case timeline overlaps with Philip Cairns going missing.

22 Oct 1986 - Four other men involved with Cooke in the petrol bomb attack are given suspended sentences
23 Oct 1986 - Philip goes missing
3 Nov 1986 - Cooke gets a a four-year suspended sentence at the Circuit Criminal Court after his defence counsel explained that a custodial sentence would see Cooke’s radio station “disappear” and that “Cooke could lose in excess of 100,000 pounds.

LorMal

kbannon wrote: »

I don't know what other evidence is there and kept on the quiet by the Gardai (obviously) but given what's in the public domain, I don't think he did it. He was a scumbag that deserved a long and painful death but the allegations and other stories don't seem to line up: the red car, Philip going off with a stranger, the claim of assault on Philip in what would have been a busy house.
I don't know, I just don't see it.

The assault on Philip was witnessed in the 'busy house'. It adds up as well (and better) as any other theory I have seen.

Seth Brundle

LorMal wrote: »

The assault on Philip was witnessed in the 'busy house'. It adds up as well (and better) as any other theory I have seen.

But we have to assume that no adults saw the unconscious or dead Philip?

Allyall

Gebgbegb wrote: »

HAve they found DNA (not philip's) on the bag?

They're currently running tests. I think that they were waiting until there was enough advancements in technology/DNA testing to be able to separate all of of the different DNA's that would be on his school bag.
I believe that they are able to do that now. The bag has been held in a storage and packed in a plastic cover for nearly 30 years to prevent any contamination.

What age was John-Paul O'Tooles girlfriend that Cooke had previously abused and got pregnant, when Cooke and Co. Fire bombed his house?

Ted111

LorMal wrote: »

The assault on Philip was witnessed in the 'busy house'. It adds up as well (and better) as any other theory I have seen.

This is still a bit unclear because it's based on second hand hearsay. There is a woman reporting that another woman told her various facts. You'd really need to sit down with the witness and tease through the whole story meticulously. If her report is based on truth then how sure is she of the time/date. Does she know it was Philip or think it might have been. Does she recall anything about the car Cooke was driving. His movements or activities later in the day.

Even though Cooke set the bar high in his sick activities - going by rumors anyway - this alleged murder still represented an escalation on his part. However given it happened on the cusp of his sentencing in another court case it could be an attempt on his part to reassert control. He had always dominated and overpowered his prey and with the culmination of the trial for the first time the tide was turning against him.

The red car might have had nothing to do with it. It's a useless lead without a reg number. Strangely the guy wrote down the reg before losing the note. Maybe he could have recalled it under deep hypnosis.

Reports say the bag had three different dna on it. If the girl who claims to have dumped the bag in the lane volunteers her dna then that can be matched. If they have Cooke's dna, which they might not, that could also be matched now.

fryup

1968 wrote: »

But more surprisingly, why didn't they mention that Cooke organised a firebomb attack in 1984 and the following 1986 conviction? Especially as the 1986 court case timeline overlaps with Philip Cairns going missing.

and someone with a pending court case would surely have other things on their mind other than abducting a young boy??

Going Forward

Ted111 wrote: »

This is still a bit unclear because it's based on second hand hearsay. There is a woman reporting that another woman told her various facts. You'd really need to sit down with the witness and tease through the whole story meticulously. If her report is based on truth then how sure is she of the time/date. Does she know it was Philip or think it might have been. Does she recall anything about the car Cooke was driving. His movements or activities later in the day.

Even though Cooke set the bar high in his sick activities - going by rumors anyway - this alleged murder still represented an escalation on his part. However given it happened on the cusp of his sentencing in another court case it could be an attempt on his part to reassert control. He had always dominated and overpowered his prey and with the culmination of the trial for the first time the tide was turning against him.

The red car might have had nothing to do with it. It's a useless lead without a reg number. Strangely the guy wrote down the reg before losing the note. Maybe he could have recalled it under deep hypnosis.

Reports say the bag had three different dna on it. If the girl who claims to have dumped the bag in the lane volunteers her dna then that can be matched. If they have Cooke's dna, which they might not, that could also be matched now.

Going back to the theory that victims are known to their assailants, you'd wonder whether anyone known to Philip possessed a car similar in colour with the partial reg.

Anyone in a position of authority whom he may have trusted and respected.

If indeed it was him speaking to the driver to begin with.

fryup

^^^^^^^

knowing what we know now about priests..i think a pertinent question is..who was the local PP at the time??

Stasi 2.0

A Fr Nolan is mentioned in "Playing in the dark" (book by one of Cooke's victims). The TV3 programme was interesting but I missed the first half hour. No doubt it will be on youtube soon. It was mentioned that Cookes vintage Jaguar (was it the same one he drove all the time or did he own any other vehicles ?) was rather conspicuously emblazoned with the words "RADIO DUBLIN".

Going Forward

fryup wrote: »

^^^^^^^

knowing what we know now about priests..i think a pertinent question is..who was the local PP at the time??

I wasn't inviting such a specific reading between the lines, but it is a unfortunately a legitimate response.

But any queries shouldn't be reserved for the more mainstream cult, there were also reports of involvements with prayer groups and born again Christians which may have accounted for the family being constantly referred to as being "deeply religious".


"According to his mother Alice, Philip was a profoundly spiritual child. He had just made his confirmation months before and was consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

His strong faith has been a source of consolation to his mother."

http://www.catholicireland.net/mother-philip-cairns-hopes-conclusion/


"A religious sister close to the mother of missing Dublin schoolboy Philip Cairns has described Philip’s mother as “a great woman of faith”.

Sr Marie Dunne CHF, who four years ago wrote a song to help raise funds for the parents of missing children, told The Irish Catholic that “Alice is a woman of prayer and deep faith and this has been and is her strength”."


http://irishcatholic.ie/article/mother-philip-cairns-sustained-her-faith


His family were sure he wouldn't voluntarily get into a car with someone he didn't know.

Whether it was voluntary or not is another question.


http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-hoped-every-day-for-months-philip-cairns-26420652.html

The Cooke connection seems as far fetched as any theory.

Here's a reply from the comments section of one of Broadsheets articles:




good work bodger in putting the investigation in order, and dispelling some of the discrepancies. one issue which seems missing is that there was a born again Christian group nearby (3 minutes drive from where his school bag was found) based in Templeogue House at the time, but they also had access/use of a house in templeogue wood for meetings as well. I was the same age as Philip around that Halloween, and from the previous summer, we were allowed to hang around the grounds of this old building (nicknamed “Paro”, meaning paradise), but were then invited in where they set up an ad-hoc youth club / rec room with a table tennis table, and we were offered tea, shelter from the rain and only had to listen to preaching about Jesus. Most of the kids, especially older guys around 15/16, stayed outside on the steps, but some got more involved in the sing songs and started to go to the nearby detached house for “discussions”, especially the ones who were either from religious families and had found this place via the youth club in St.Judes, or those from broken homes who didn’t have to get home at regular times. Over the next year, people stopped hanging around the area, especially after one of the kids smashed windows, and the group got hostile to local kids and started to ask us not to go there.
While I had never seen anything close to abuse (or to my knowledge any accusations of it), it seems unusual that a religious group based in a nearby listed building with numerous empty rooms, and had been inviting young children in without the knowledge of their parents had not been mentioned, but one in Kilkenny was. Hopefully, as a result of these updates, we can finally piece together Philip’s last movements and get some resolution.




http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

StephenHendry

the programme offered a very good insight into cooke's character, what he was like, he didn't offer any conclusive info on whether he was responsible for Philips murder etc.

the girl who came forward in 2011 and this year who was one of cookes victims is key, she said she witnessed Philip in cooke's studio, she said that Philip took a lift of cooke the day he went missing which would appear to rule out an abduction , I find it hard to believe she would make up the story about seeing Philip unconscious in cooke's studio , the DNA matching/testing will be key hopefully to establishing a strong link between cooke and Philip,

cooke also co-oberated a lot of what the victim of cooke said she saw in the studio, its a pity the gardai didn't pursue this a lot stronger in 2011 to get cooke to reveal more info

Allyall

I didn't watch the programme, but I thought that the Woman who came forward in 2011 was the Woman who told the counsellor and the authorities about the other Woman who was the witness.

She gave her name again this year and when Cooke was dying, the Woman whose name had been given, had a bit more courage and told the Gardaí what she remembered.

Wasn't there two different Women, both abused by Cooke?

LorMal

fryup wrote: »

and someone with a pending court case would surely have other things on their mind other than abducting a young boy??

Not necessarily. I agree with the poster above - a stress reaction - wanting to regain control.
Stress can cause aberrant behaviour.

LorMal

Ted111 wrote: »

This is still a bit unclear because it's based on second hand hearsay. There is a woman reporting that another woman told her various facts. You'd really need to sit down with the witness and tease through the whole story meticulously. If her report is based on truth then how sure is she of the time/date. Does she know it was Philip or think it might have been. Does she recall anything about the car Cooke was driving. His movements or activities later in the day.

Even though Cooke set the bar high in his sick activities - going by rumors anyway - this alleged murder still represented an escalation on his part. However given it happened on the cusp of his sentencing in another court case it could be an attempt on his part to reassert control. He had always dominated and overpowered his prey and with the culmination of the trial for the first time the tide was turning against him.

The red car might have had nothing to do with it. It's a useless lead without a reg number. Strangely the guy wrote down the reg before losing the note. Maybe he could have recalled it under deep hypnosis.

Reports say the bag had three different dna on it. If the girl who claims to have dumped the bag in the lane volunteers her dna then that can be matched. If they have Cooke's dna, which they might not, that could also be matched now.

A couple things strike me about this:

1. He wrote down the reg number. Something must have struck him as very odd about that encounter - remember, Philip had not been reported missing at this stage.
2. He said the man driving had grey curly hair. That is not very common. It is certainly the most obvious feature about Eamonn Cooke from a distance.

Fleawuss

StephenHendry wrote: »

the programme offered a very good insight into cooke's character, what he was like, he didn't offer any conclusive info on whether he was responsible for Philips murder etc.

the girl who came forward in 2011 and this year who was one of cookes victims is key, she said she witnessed Philip in cooke's studio, she said that Philip took a lift of cooke the day he went missing which would appear to rule out an abduction , I find it hard to believe she would make up the story about seeing Philip unconscious in cooke's studio , the DNA matching/testing will be key hopefully to establishing a strong link between cooke and Philip,

cooke also co-oberated a lot of what the victim of cooke said she saw in the studio, its a pity the gardai didn't pursue this a lot stronger in 2011 to get cooke to reveal more info

The problems for all of us here is that we are relying on second hand accounts of what these women have claimed happened and exactly what Cooke has corroborated. We don't know what he has corroborated and we don't know how much. At least I don't.

In regard to her reported statement that Philip was in Cookes car, it sounds definitive. I thought she had said that as a 9 year old she saw Philip in the radio station, saw him struck, she saw him unconscious and bleeding. And that was all she said she saw of Philip. I may be mistaken but if that is what she said then she at no time said that she saw him in Cookes car. As I said, I may have missed something in the reports of what she said so please clarify.

LorMal

Allyall wrote: »

I didn't watch the programme, but I thought that the Woman who came forward in 2011 was the Woman who told the counsellor and the authorities about the other Woman who was the witness.

She gave her name again this year and when Cooke was dying, the Woman whose name had been given, had a bit more courage and told the Gardaí what she remembered.

Wasn't there two different Women, both abused by Cooke?

This is as clear as mud to me. I cannot get that straight in my mind. What exactly was this councillor told, and by whom?
Can anyone explain this clearly?

Fleawuss

LorMal wrote: »

This is as clear as mud to me. I cannot get that straight in my mind. What exactly was this councillor told, and by whom?
Can anyone explain this clearly?

I think you will have to go back through all the interviews she has given. It would be interesting to sift through them and establish exactly what she has said.

I remain very curious about the Garda response. The witness about the bag came forward in 2011 and seems to have been dismissed. Why?

Fleawuss

And from the IT of May 13 2016:
"Gardai interviewed Cooke before his death and he verified aspects of the woman’s statement, including that he knew Cairns and had had him in his car. He would not, however, verify whether he knew the whereabouts of his remains."

That, if true, would seem to settle that.

Allyall

LorMal wrote: »

This is as clear as mud to me. I cannot get that straight in my mind. What exactly was this councillor told, and by whom?
Can anyone explain this clearly?

IIRC she was told by one of the women abused by Cooke, that she knew the other woman had witnessed Philip being brought to Cookes house and then hit.
She eventually contacted the other woman (or vice versa for counselling), and got some information confirmed.
She convinced the woman to the Gardaí when she had enough information.

The interviews she gave are a bit muddled. In some it sounds like she's talking about the same person, and in others she seems to give different version of events.

I believe that is as much the Newspapers/Journalists fault as anyone.
Also, she may have been trying to conceal the identities, and at the same time give a little information, without giving too much.

Fleawuss

I see from the same IT article that

"Broadcaster Gareth O’Callaghan, in a Facebook post over the weekend, said he was related to the Cairns family. He said Philip had had an interest in radio and “Cooke had promised him a visit to Radio Dublin”.

1968

fryup wrote: »

and someone with a pending court case would surely have other things on their mind other than abducting a young boy??

Unless he had prior motivations to do so.

Playing devils advocate here.

22 Oct 1986 - Four other men involved with Cooke in the petrol bomb attack are in court and given suspended sentences. It is reported that Cooke will be sentenced on Monday, November 3, 1986.

If Cooke thought he was going to serve time and if he had motives to hurt/get rid of Cairns, he had a small window to do so.

23 Oct 1986 - Philip goes missing

03 Nov 1986 - Cooke is up in court and gets a a four-year suspended sentence at the Circuit Criminal Court.

Allyall

Fleawuss wrote: »

I see from the same IT article that

"Broadcaster Gareth O’Callaghan, in a Facebook post over the weekend, said he was related to the Cairns family. He said Philip had had an interest in radio and “Cooke had promised him a visit to Radio Dublin”.

Gareth O'Callaghan found out (a long time) after Philip went missing that he was related to him (I think they had the same Great Grandfather).
Yet refers to him as his cousin. Gareth O'Callaghan was also apparently abused as a child, and when he went to work on Cookes Radio station at 18 years old, thought nothing unusual about the young girls in the house when he was there, nor did he think it was odd that one girl told him that she wasn't allowed to be there anymore.
He also never decided to look into why the entire staff walked out of the place while trashing it the year before (over allegations that Cooke was abusing at least one young girl), even though it was broadcast on the airwaves at that time, and O'Callaghan had apparently a massive interest in radio.

Now he decides to investigate it and publicly say he doesn't believe the woman or those allegations. Possibly making it even harder for her to come forward with more info..

This is old ground.. But O'Callaghan... Blah blah...

Fleawuss

And from Gateth O'Callaghans own Facebook which I can't link or paste from:
"Philip's mother Alice denied this week that Philip had any interest in radio"

Strange case with strange reporting. Also on that page are photos of Gardai handling the bag directly with no gloves and no plastic bag on the school bag.

Esel

Allyall wrote: »

Gareth O'Callaghan found out (a long time) after Philip went missing that he was related to him (I think they had the same Great Grandfather).
Yet refers to him as his cousin.

Having the same great-grandfather would mean they were second cousins.

Allyall

Esel wrote: »

Having the same great-grandfather would mean they were second cousins.

I am aware of that, but O'Callaghan is using the term 'cousin' for his own benefit,as if it gives him some sort of special insight into the case.
He had no idea that they were related until he was tracing his family tree (according to him). Yet constantly says "my cousin" when referring to Philip.

For example

The link between paedophile Cooke and my cousin Philip doesn't add up

Fleawuss

O'Callaghans Facebook if you haven't been is worth a look. He also claims that Cooke had Alzheimer's.

Fuzzy Clam

I've uploaded a recording of Cooke on Radio Dublin following the mutiny in 1978.
The entire tape is an interesting insight into the way he viewed people who had left his station but what is of special interest is what he says at from 6.55 minutes into the tape and also at 9.35 mins.
http://www64.zippyshare.com/v/KYOLG30K/file.html