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South Africa V Ireland, Second Test Build-up Thread

  • 15-06-2016 2:55pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Will the lads be able to manage to take the second test and claim a historic series win? We're playing above a sea level the players will be used to, can they recover physically and emotionally in time? Will there be a hangover from the last test?

    Stander is out, so who comes in for him? Ruddock straight on and someone to the bench? Or would you switch it around another way?


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Comments

  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ruddock straight in with reidy to the bench would be my call.

    I think the more interesting calls will be on the boks side. Steyn comes in for Lambie and i would be surprised (and very glad) if he doesnt get the starting 10 shirt. He has a much better kicking boot to janties and although he wouldnt be considered the future of bok out halves, i think cotezee is already under pressure so he may revert to tried and tested. In the altitude of Ellis park, joburg the ball will fly miles long and high, and id expect the boks to adhere to a much more kicking game than they did last week.

    i could also see kreil starting, possibly at 13 instead of mapoe to get some real incision off de allande. Mapoe was shown as quite clueless at this level last week. The only other unforced change that we could see would be the swapping out of kolisi for vermeulen and whitley coming in at 8. Whitley is having an absolute barn storming season so far, and that back row of vermeulen, lowe and whitley would be irresistable.

    its a hard one to call... ireland with 15 for 80 mins at the same level of control would not be beaten by this boks side (its poor)
    however, have we ever produced two flawless performances in a row?

    boks by 5 i think


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Nice summary syd. I agree mapoe looked all at sea.

    It is ludicrous to suggest Ireland should throw this test and concentrate on the decider. A good start on Saturday for Ireland and the boks might implode.

    There are currently relatively few bok players who would challenge a world XV. In particular I think ezebeth is a bit overrated. De Jager and du toit are class though.

    I was very impressed with Ireland's mental fortitude last week, no snatching defeat from the jaws of victory although on non-Irish rugby forums Murray was slated (and I agree) for gifting back possession with time up.

    I've never seen a fly half who looks like he's just entering puberty play with as much poise, Jackson had a good game.

    Reckon Ireland can win this for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Ruddock straight in, no other changes to the XV I reckon. Not a massive step down.

    I think we'll lose but backing up last week with another quality display is more important than the result.

    I'd love to see another strong performance from Marshall in particular.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    How about Ryan and Dillane on the bench with Ruddock starting? I know neither are really back rows but is it a better option than Reidy starting I wonder.

    I understand the point re not throwing the Test, I would just worry that playing a full strength side again at altitude after last week might be asking too much of them. Lose it and you're asking them to play a third Test in a row then. We'll probably need at least some rotation given the sheer mountain of work some of the lads got through last week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    While bringing Ruddock in at 6 would involve the least disruption, our strongest squad would involve bringing Dillane into the second-row and shifting Henderson to his more familiar blindside. We could then have Ryan and Ruddock covering from the bench.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    molloyjh wrote: »
    How about Ryan and Dillane on the bench with Ruddock starting? I know neither are really back rows but is it a better option than Reidy starting I wonder.

    I understand the point re not throwing the Test, I would just worry that playing a full strength side again at altitude after last week might be asking too much of them. Lose it and you're asking them to play a third Test in a row then. We'll probably need at least some rotation given the sheer mountain of work some of the lads got through last week.

    I think we can afford some rotation without it being considered throwing the game. Trimble must be exhausted for example. Maybe he gets a rest and Gilroy starts with TOH on the bench. or earls benches with gilroy starting.

    If nothing else the bench will be much more important. I can't imagine both jackson and Murray could do another 80 after last week. Jack McGrath too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭techdiver


    I see no reason to fear this weekend.

    I can't see how South Africa can fix the issues they had last week in just one week. Ireland with 15 for the entire game should look to take the game to South Africa and win the test.

    It would be great going into the final test with the comfort of giving some fringe players a shot against the Springboks in South Africa (whether Joe will do this I don't know), instead of having to play a full strength team 3 weeks in a row.

    As others have alluded to, can be back up last week performance and bring some consistency of performance to the table. Whilst our consistency under Joe has improved from previous regimes I still think we are not consistent enough to put together barnstorming back to back performances. I hope I'm wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,463 ✭✭✭Kiwi_knock


    Should really be nothing to fear. The South African attack was very basic, their backs coach has little or no experience at a high level and it really showed. Not sure they can remedy that within a couple of days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    molloyjh wrote: »
    How about Ryan and Dillane on the bench with Ruddock starting? I know neither are really back rows but is it a better option than Reidy starting I wonder.

    I understand the point re not throwing the Test, I would just worry that playing a full strength side again at altitude after last week might be asking too much of them. Lose it and you're asking them to play a third Test in a row then. We'll probably need at least some rotation given the sheer mountain of work some of the lads got through last week.

    I'm not sure of Reidy's quality either but if he's not going to be picked in these exact circumstances you'd wonder why he's there at all.

    I'd go all out for this one and worry about the third test later. SA are only going to improve as time goes on, better to hit them now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭The Pheasant2


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    ruddock straight in with reidy to the bench would be my call.

    I think the more interesting calls will be on the boks side. Steyn comes in for Lambie and i would be surprised (and very glad) if he doesnt get the starting 10 shirt. He has a much better kicking boot to janties and although he wouldnt be considered the future of bok out halves, i think cotezee is already under pressure so he may revert to tried and tested. In the altitude of Ellis park, joburg the ball will fly miles long and high, and id expect the boks to adhere to a much more kicking game than they did last week.

    i could also see kreil starting, possibly at 13 instead of mapoe to get some real incision off de allande. Mapoe was shown as quite clueless at this level last week. The only other unforced change that we could see would be the swapping out of kolisi for vermeulen and whitley coming in at 8. Whitley is having an absolute barn storming season so far, and that back row of vermeulen, lowe and whitley would be irresistable.

    its a hard one to call... ireland with 15 for 80 mins at the same level of control would not be beaten by this boks side (its poor)
    however, have we ever produced two flawless performances in a row?

    boks by 5 i think

    Steyn in for Jantjes, Kriel in for Mapoe and Duane in for Kolisi...would these changes even be allowed given it's 3 whites for 3 blacks?


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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Steyn in for Jantjes, Kriel in for Mapoe and Duane in for Kolisi...would these changes even be allowed given it's 3 whites for 3 blacks?

    I haven't a clue

    Surely cotezee has free rein when choosing form his squad?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ruddock for Stander and ideally Furlong will get one start on the tour so I'd maybe hold Ross back for the 3rd test.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Teferi wrote: »
    Will the lads be able to manage to take the second test and claim a historic series win? We're playing above a sea level the players will be used to, can they recover physically and emotionally in time? Will there be a hangover from the last test?

    Stander is out, so who comes in for him? Ruddock straight on and someone to the bench? Or would you switch it around another way?
    Would you say we'll be playing above international sea level?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,813 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Would you say we'll be playing above international sea level?
    With global warming, it's hard to know what is sea level any more :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,884 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Definitely have to go for the juggler on Saturday. Give the Boks an easy ride and their tails will be up for the 3rd game. Knock them around on Saturday and even a tight win wouldn't give them much confidence for the last game.

    Can't give the feckers as much an inch in any of the games. Fcuk them and their "physicality"...We gave as good as we got on Saturday...same again please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I never thought throwing the game would be in store, but I do think we could field a really strong team with some rotation, especially in the backs. I'd specifically like to see Olding get some time, though I'm not certain where exactly.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    Seen this on a twitter feed as a suggested team.


    15. Jared Payne
    14. Andrew Trimble
    13. Robbie Henshaw
    12. Luke Marshall
    11. Keith Earls
    10. Paddy Jackson
    9. Conor Murray

    1. Jack McGrath
    2. Rory Best
    3. Mike Ross
    4. Devin Toner
    5. Ultan Dillane
    6. Iain Henderson
    7. Jordi Murphy
    8. Jamie Heaslip


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I think the management will be desperate to try and win the series now rather then leave it to the last day...


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Um, why wouldn't they try win this match?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Um, why wouldn't they try win this match?

    a wounded Springbok is going to return in frenzy , for this reason I just can't see Ireland winning , I fear a comrensive defeat - hopefully I'm wrong , just fear that South africa will not tolerate another defeat , a bit like there recovery after defeat in the WC.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thebaz wrote: »
    a wounded Springbok is going to return in frenzy , for this reason I just can't see Ireland winning , I fear a comrensive defeat - hopefully I'm wrong , just fear that South africa will not tolerate another defeat , a bit like there recovery after defeat in the WC.

    This is not a bok team of old.... It's a new squad with a new coach, and neither is particularly great.

    If ireland can keep they mistakes to a minimum, they're the better team and should win.

    I just worry that we will find it hard to put in two good back to back performances.

    There's very little about this boks team that frightens me.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    thebaz wrote: »
    a wounded Springbok is going to return in frenzy , for this reason I just can't see Ireland winning , I fear a comrensive defeat - hopefully I'm wrong , just fear that South africa will not tolerate another defeat , a bit like there recovery after defeat in the WC.

    That's all well and good, but should Ireland should put forward a weaker side on purpose because of this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    That's all well and good, but should Ireland should put forward a weaker side on purpose because of this?

    There's plenty of ways to get different people game time this weekend that don't involve it being a weaker side.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    That's all well and good, but should Ireland should put forward a weaker side on purpose because of this?

    no , they have to try and win it , just think it will be really tough - good idea to rotate any tired or the slightly injured , keep squad players involved


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    While bringing Ruddock in at 6 would involve the least disruption, our strongest squad would involve bringing Dillane into the second-row and shifting Henderson to his more familiar blindside. We could then have Ryan and Ruddock covering from the bench.


    You need a bit of impact from the bench. Ryan isn't really a big impact player, Dillane is. Can't see much change from last week but just Ruddock straight in for Stander.


  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I don't care which way they go really, either Ryan or Reidy will end up on the bench and neither have much of a future with Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,616 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    awec wrote: »
    I don't care which way they go really, either Ryan or Reidy will end up on the bench and neither have much of a future with Ireland.

    You're ruling out Roux. Ultimate joeball if he's on the bench instead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    errlloyd wrote: »
    You're ruling out Roux. Ultimate joeball if he's on the bench instead.

    68884204.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,427 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Posted this in the other thread but it needs to go here too.

    Thornley suggests that Earls, Murphy and Marshall will all be rested this weekend. Gilroy, Ruddock and Olding will replace them. With Stander suspended Hendo will go to 6 and Ruddock to 7. So Dillane to start alongside Toner if that's the case. An Olding/Henshaw midfield sounds really intriguing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    That's all well and good, but should Ireland should put forward a weaker side on purpose because of this?

    The only reason we should (and might) field a weaker side is from a squad management perspective. A lot of guys put in a huge shift last weekend and might not have enough in the tank for another big shift at altitude this week. The coaches need to get the balance right to ensure the greatest chance of winning the game while not shooting themselves in the foot ahead of what potentially could be a decider the following week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'm a tad flummoxed if Thornley's suggested changes are true. I think it's pretty much yielding the game in the back line. Marshall was absolutely central to a lot of our good play as well as our exit strategies last Saturday whether he put boot to ball or trucked it up well over the gain line.

    Gilroy does not have the all round game of Earls for squeezing the opposition and putting them under pressure. He might be able to beat his man in a phone box but that's not going to be much use if the game is being played through the middle. He lacks the physical presence for this one. I don't fancy 16 stone JP Pietersen coming at him.

    I can understand the suggested changes in the pack although I think Dillane thrives off the bench when he comes on against tired legs with a real dynamism with ball in hand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    The Thornley article reads more like guesswork than insider info, but I agree it would be very harsh to drop Marshall or Murphy. I suppose we don't know how wrecked guys are after last week but I'd be disappointed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,076 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    Olding and Henshaw in midfield? Now I wouldn't have seen that coming, and it sounds interesting.

    What time can we expect the team announcement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Buer wrote: »
    I'm a tad flummoxed if Thornley's suggested changes are true. I think it's pretty much yielding the game in the back line. Marshall was absolutely central to a lot of our good play as well as our exit strategies last Saturday whether he put boot to ball or trucked it up well over the gain line.

    Gilroy does not have the all round game of Earls for squeezing the opposition and putting them under pressure. He might be able to beat his man in a phone box but that's not going to be much use if the game is being played through the middle. He lacks the physical presence for this one. I don't fancy 16 stone JP Pietersen coming at him.

    I can understand the suggested changes in the pack although I think Dillane thrives off the bench when he comes on against tired legs with a real dynamism with ball in hand.

    Earls did have ice on his arm when he came off. I wonder if there's an injury concern there?

    EDIT: The Olding-Marshall swap is probably just rotation. Both are quality and it's probably a good idea to get a good look at both. Marshall was excellent the last day but Olding is no slouch himself and I'd actually be excited to see what Olding-Henshaw could do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    molloyjh wrote: »
    The only reason we should (and might) field a weaker side is from a squad management perspective. A lot of guys put in a huge shift last weekend and might not have enough in the tank for another big shift at altitude this week. The coaches need to get the balance right to ensure the greatest chance of winning the game while not shooting themselves in the foot ahead of what potentially could be a decider the following week.

    I wouldn't be that concerned with the altitude, to be honest. Only 4 of the starting 15 from last week (Strauss, de Jager, de Klerk and Mapoe) play for either the Lions, Cheetahs or Bulls. Jantjies is likely to come in but Mapoe is potentially being dropped.

    The bulk of their team is with the Stormers or Sharks who are based at sea level.

    I really think we should be going out all guns blazing this week unless the guys are genuinely too wrecked and they really shouldn't be given they've had a fairly gentle last few months.

    If we cop one injury to one of our key players, particularly at halfback, I reckon the 3rd test might be beyond us so I think it would be naive for the coaching team to select with an eye on that.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,884 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Buer wrote: »

    He lacks the physical presence for this one. I don't fancy 16 stone JP Pietersen coming at him.

    Earls is 5 10 and 90 kgs.

    Gilroy is 6ft and 93kgs.

    He's a big enough lad but I know his defence isn't the greatest. Mind you wouldn't it be good for once to have a bit of a threat on the wing...Make the Boks have to worry about not missing tackles or they're 5 points down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    I'm more afraid of the second game slump to be honest. Ireland have a habit of following a great performance with a terrible one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Earls is 5 10 and 90 kgs.

    Gilroy is 6ft and 93kgs.

    He's a big enough lad but I know his defence isn't the greatest. Mind you wouldn't it be good for once to have a bit of a threat on the wing...Make the Boks have to worry about not missing tackles or they're 5 points down.

    Ah, I know Earls isn't a big bloke but he puts himself about far more. We've seen him absolutely rattle people in kick chases and launch himself into tackles. That isn't Gilroy's game.

    I can only think that Earls still is a little sore from the knock he took on the arm.

    No issue with Olding coming in; I don't think we'll lose too much although my concern would be removing someone who is in such good form and takes pressure off Jackson.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Mr Tickle


    Buer wrote: »

    No issue with Olding coming in; I don't think we'll lose too much although my concern would be removing someone who is in such good form and takes pressure off Jackson.

    Isn't olding capable of being a playmaking 12 too? It's just a pity given how good Marshal was.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm more afraid of the second game slump to be honest. Ireland have a habit of following a great performance with a terrible one.

    Hasn't really been the case under Schmidt as much as other coaches though


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Buer wrote: »
    Ah, I know Earls isn't a big bloke but he puts himself about far more. We've seen him absolutely rattle people in kick chases and launch himself into tackles. That isn't Gilroy's game.

    ???

    Mr Tickle wrote: »
    Isn't olding capable of being a playmaking 12 too? It's just a pity given how good Marshal was.

    Olding is a pure playmaking 12 in the mould of Mauger or Giteau.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    ???



    His kick chase isn't as good as Earls' but there's nothing wrong with his tackling. His defensive issues are far more about positioning.



    Olding is a pure playmaking 12 in the mould of Mauger or Giteau.

    Fixed your post to show the video, but that's from three years ago. There's a reason he hasn't figured for Ireland since then.

    Gilroy is a rubbish tackler. No two ways about that. Earls has been accused of poor tackling before but he's a colossus compared to Gilroy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,847 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Can't say I'd be too keen on Gilroy starting. That said Earls did get a knock last week and he seems to be the next cab off the rank. Whether SA have the kicking game to target him or not remains to be seen. It did occur to me that had SA been attacking Gilroy's wing instead of Trimble's at the end last week would the outcome have been so positive for us!

    Less concerns (well no cocerns really) about Olding over Marshall, however Marshall was excellent last week so seems harsh, but it may have been part of the plan all along. But we'll see what Joe comes up with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Fixed your post to show the video, but that's from three years ago. There's a reason he hasn't figured for Ireland since then.

    Gilroy is a rubbish tackler. No two ways about that. Earls has been accused of poor tackling before but he's a colossus compared to Gilroy.

    In fairness, neither of them are getting picked for their defense :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    bilston wrote:
    Can't say I'd be too keen on Gilroy starting. That said Earls did get a knock last week and he seems to be the next cab off the rank. Whether SA have the kicking game to target him or not remains to be seen. It did occur to me that had SA been attacking Gilroy's wing instead of Trimble's at the end last week would the outcome have been so positive for us!


    Earls gave masterclass in defence last week. People really should re watch the match and look at him. He was very banged up after it though so only natural he gets rested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,438 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Im inclined to think he will just bring in Ruddock. Sometimes we can all get caught up in having our favorite players start or the new guy to get his first start etc but Im fairly sure coaches at the top level want real impact on the bench, for me right now bringing Dillane on can make a difference in the final 20 minutes. Its not always about jamming the 15 best players onto the pitch for kick off but sometimes about having a very strong team to finish out games. Anyone that watches the GAA wil know that Dublin regularly use Kevin Mc Mannamon as a real impact sub, he is one of Dublins best players but is used as a sub a lot, just so he can be brought on with his very strong direct running which tired defenders really struggle with.
    That all said I wouldn't be disappointed with Dillane coming in and Henderson moving to 6.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Mr Tickle wrote: »
    Isn't olding capable of being a playmaking 12 too? It's just a pity given how good Marshal was.

    He is but I don't think he has the power to take crap ball and truck/tidy it up as Marshall did.

    Jackson and Marshall also have a lot more game time together.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    When is the team announcement? Tomorrow, I assume?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Teferi wrote: »
    When is the team announcement? Tomorrow, I assume?

    Today I'd imagine, it's usually Thursday for Saturday games


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Dog Botherer


    Olding is a massive talent, probably our biggest right now (except maybe Ryan in the U20s) and needs to have a chance on the biggest of stages. Joe is obviously a huge fan, despite his injury record and his struggle to break into the Ulster starting 15 this season.

    A start against the Boks in Ellis Park might very well be the making of him. He'd run rings around De Allende.


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