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Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,999 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    The counsellor who has come forward to speak of her involvement with the victim who was forced to return the bag and with Cooke's wife was asked this morning if she had ever wondered in previous years if Cooke had any connection to this case. She said she always had and that several other people working in social care in the area Cooke operated wondered too.

    I feel so disillusioned after hearing all this today. The idea that the guards had forcibly removed children from his home on several occasions for their safety and yet he was not arrested until 10 years ago seems incredible.

    Eamonn Dunphy pointed out on the radio this morning that there's a chance that the unconscious boy the 9 year old victim reported seeing may not have been Philip but another child who fell foul of Cooke.There was quite a bit of crossover between his victims and those of the prolific paedophile priest Bill Carney who regularly took children from care homes to his house for weekends and preyed on children in care. I wonder if all the children in state care in those years are accounted for and if any of them went missing without anyone hearing of it.

    Between 2002 and 2009 372 children in state care went missing and remain unaccounted for. In 2013 4 children went missing from state care and were never found. Yet do any of us know their names or remember their cases? I seriously wonder about their fates now. I wonder what those numbers were like in the 80s and 90s.

    What sort of country are we? There is no way the level of paedophilia that we know of,probably tip of the iceberg, went on without care workers, teachers, doctors, counsellors and most importantly Gardai knowing. How have children disappeared without trace of fuss when authorities know what awful things happen in our country. How has this happened??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    I am bewildered as to how. My own opinion is that people will not do their job. And all sorts of reasons are given for that. Maybe like everything else here it's all personal and who you know and exceptions and exemptions and derogations and do nothing. God forbid that anything should be done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,999 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    I am bewildered as to how. My own opinion is that people will not do their job. And all sorts of reasons are given for that. Maybe like everything else here it's all personal and who you know and exceptions and exemptions and derogations and do nothing. God forbid that anything should be done.

    I'm afraid I wonder now if it is underpinned by something more sinister. Was there a level of collusion ? Is paedophilia so widespread that there's a whole swathe of people out there who don't find it all that abhorrent and are willing to turn a blind eye in their professional roles?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Okay, timeline as much as I can put together:

    Note - Italics are uncorroborated, personal accounts, blogs, non-reviewed articles and the like.

    1977 - Eamonn Cooke assumes control of pirate radio station, which at the time were underground hits as many people felt let down by the mainstream radio. These were pretty illegal and got raided every so often, but many flourished. This was located in 54 Inchicore Road, Dublin.

    Sometime in the 70s/80s - Radio staff challenge Cooke on accusations of child abuse. Most get intimidated, bullied out or removed. Talk of how passionate Cooke was, and how he insisted on going out at nights digging to get lines put in for the pirate station.

    Also appears he was rather a law unto himself in terms of getting involved in police work, chasing down stolen cars and the like. Appears to have had support in the local community and within the police force.


    October 1986 - Philip Cairns goes missing.

    Later October 1986 - Philip Cairns' schoolbag turns up in a previously searched laneway, (found by two girls) having been apparently replaced near the site of his disappearance, minus several books. Bag was tested and three profiles were taken from it, but forensics not good enough at the time to pinpoint anything. Bag kept since.

    1986 - Cooke commits arson attack against home of a young girl who threatens to go to the Gardai for sexual assault against her. Her home is burned down. Reason is unknown at the time. Convicted and gets a suspended sentence.

    1989 - Cooke meets (one of) his future wives (he was married three times). He was in his fifties at this point, she "very young" (I believe early 20s, but I can't be sure where I read that). She had been the victim of a paedophile priest as a child and was badly traumatised. He was sympathetic to her and helped her in her quest for justice. She married him and they had eight children together.

    2002, a man dialled 999 and confessed to murdering Philip. He sounded drunk and as though he was ringing from a pub. He is never traced.

    2002 - Cooke convicted of rape and indecent assault on four girls.

    2006 - Cooke's conviction is overturned on a technicality.


    October 2006 - Fresh appeal 20 years after his disappearance. Huge response, but no concrete leads.

    2007 - Cooke put on trial again, with two of the previous complainants (including the girl who was the victim of his arson attack) as witnesses. Reports of his offering victims money after each incident - and threatened them that they would be put in a home if they told anyone of the assaults. It's noted that he has eight previous convictions, including the arson attack. Pleads not guilty to all 42 accounts (over a period from 1976-78), but is convicted and sentenced to ten years, with the 1,300 days served to be taken into account. Trial delayed multiple times due to claims of ill health from Cooke.

    October 2007 - Another appeal, Crimewatch, another large response, but no concrete leads.

    May 2009 - A search in a woodland after an elderly woman contacted Gardai and said he had been murdered and buried in two sites. She accused a man living in the area, but nothing could be proved against him. Nothing was found and the trail ran cold.

    2011 - Another appeal for information. A woman ("A") contacts tentatively, but then recuses herself.

    July 2014 - Phil Cairns', (Philip's father), dies.

    2015 - Cooke applies for conviction to be overturned due to technicality and is turned down.

    May 2016 - Woman ("B") contacts Gardai about Cooke's involvement in the case. Gardai question Cooke on his deathbed, he confirms some aspects of the story but does not directly confirm his involvement in the murder.

    Approximately also May 2016 - Victim of Cooke ("C") being councelled by Angela Copley, a well-respected therapist who deals with child abuse and its long-term effects, tells her that a girl was forced to dump Philip Cairns' bag in the alleyway a week after his disappearance by Eamonn Cooke.

    "A" is contacted again, although nothing of what she did or didn't say is known. It is also not known if "A" and "C" are the same person or not. Gardai also talk with "C", see previous about whether or not she is also A. It is also possible that B is the girl who was forced to dump the bag, but that is not in the public domain at the moment.

    May 2016 - Cooke, dying of cancer, is questioned by Gardai. He is told that he can write it down, not to be opened after his death, but he refuses, although he does confirm some aspects of the woman's story.

    Approximately late May - Copley reports this information to the Gardai. It is revealed that they are already working on the Cooke angle from the May report.

    June 2016 - Cooke dies of cancer in a prison hospice.

    Current: Copley also says that there is quite a bit of cross-over between the victims of Bill Carney, a paedophile priest (who was active in the region and paid off by the Church to leave the priesthood without being arrested. He was was eventually arrested in London 30 years later,) and the victims of Cooke, including the wife mentioned above who was abused by Carney. Suspicions being raised about a paedophile ring active in the region at the time.

    References
    http://ie.vlex.com/vid/dpp-v-eamon-cooke-66299300
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/meave-sheehan-dark-secrets-predator-captain-cooke-took-to-the-grave-34792994.html
    http://www.abigailrieley.com/pirates-paedophiles/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,999 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    Samaris wrote: »
    1989 - Cooke meets (one of) his future wives (he was married three times). He was in his fifties at this point, she "very young" (I believe early 20s, but I can't be sure where I read that). She had been the victim of a paedophile priest as a child and was badly traumatised. He was sympathetic to her and helped her in her quest for justice. She married him and they had eight children together.

    [/url]

    Wow incredible!Did you do all that today? Somewhere a newspaper is missing a star journo! :)

    I'd just add to the above that the counsellor said today there was quite a lot of crossover between victims of Bill Carney and Cooke. Cookes wife had grown up in a care home and was a victim of Carney and bore his child.
    I can't help thinking it's very conceivable that some sort of paedophile ring operated at the time.
    I'm afraid the reluctance to expose Cooke also makes me suspicious of that, that more than one or two people had something to lose in this being uncovered.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Wow incredible!Did you do all that today? Somewhere a newspaper is missing a star journo! :)

    I'd just add to the above that the counsellor said today there was quite a lot of crossover between victims of Bill Carney and Cooke. Cookes wife had grown up in a care home and was a victim of Carney and bore his child.
    I can't help thinking it's very conceivable that some sort of paedophile ring operated at the time.
    I'm afraid the reluctance to expose Cooke also makes me suspicious of that.

    I'm not going to guarentee that it is all absolutely accurate (the story is moving along and there's weirdly little about Cooke on the internet until the last few days. You'd think a public figure with 8 pretty serious convictions even BEFORE the child rape would have more), but accurate as I know at the moment.

    Actually, yes, now you mention it, I did see the whole paedophile ring thing. I don't know who Bill Carney is, so I didn't want to hike off onto that element of it too, but it sounds like it may well be important. Ah - yes, just looking it up there, the paedophile priest that attacked the child that later became Cooke's wife. God, how awful for her too, to know that he was likely attracted to her because of how awfully she'd been treated. She said as much too in a rare interview.

    Thanks for adding that info, Whimsical.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Great work on the timeline Samaris.
    The way I understood it woman A and B might be the same person.
    Woman A came forward in 2011 with some sort of account. Woman C contacted her social worker to tell her about B (who was forced to plant the bag) and the gardai were in contact with A again. It seems to imply that A and B are the same person but her story will now carry more weight with the gardai?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Yeah, the A and B issue is a bit complicated. I had to go for the A/B/C system to keep them straight in my head myself. It's certainly being implied that A and B are the same person, in which case, jesus, I can't imagine what demons she's battled to come forward with this, what hold he had on her to force her to dump the bag and what much greater hold he had on her after that as an "accomplice".

    I am usually very, very sparing with my use of the word "evil" for human beings, as it's such an extreme and wholescale word, but that act was bloody evil.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    If they are indeed the same person and she can link the killing and the bag at least it would be certain who the boy was.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    One has to question the logic as to why the bag was sitting in a plastic bag in a safe for so long instead of DNA samples lifted off it 10 years ago .
    The technology was advanced further after 9/11

    It's a disgrace and it renders meaningless the term "active investigation", a status that this case was supposed to have had.

    If Cooke had been reported by anyone it should have been investigated.

    Something is not adding up here.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    It's a disgrace and it renders meaningless the term "active investigation", a status that this case was supposed to have had.

    If Cooke had been reported by anyone it should have been investigated.

    Something is not adding up here.

    The bag has been kept in perfect condition to preserve the DNA.
    The DNA had been tested to the standard at the time and has been tested again with no matches of significance
    It will now be tested against Cookes
    All this information is readily available on the internet


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭Stepping Stone


    It does seem like there have been multiple reports that Cooke was involved, which were dismissed by the Gardaí for whatever reason.

    You really can't vilify a woman for revealing information at this stage when it seems likely that she was a victim, probably lived in fear of reprisal and saw others who went to the Authorities have their evidence dismissed or at least investigated and found to be unhelpful.

    I would assume that anyone who is in counselling and is in contact with a victims rights campaigner is not in the best place mentally.

    This is purely speculation on my part, but I don't think that someone who was abused, manipulated, saw a murder and was a small child of nine would be in the best place mentally. Some have dismissed her speaking up as attention seeking, but I would not be surprised if someone who went through all of that at a young age suffered horrible, mental scarring. You could be looking at someone who had a breakdown, who spent years in psychiatric services (we all know how good the system is), had an addiction issue, was homeless, etc.

    It is also possible that this person did approach someone before but may never have been taken seriously. Speculation again, but if that crazy attention seeker/ dirty junkie/ nutter/ weirdo/ whatever negative label you care to attach came and told you a story like that, would you listen? She may very well have had a horrible fear of the authorities due to her part in it (I do not hold her responsible in any way in case of confusion).

    Those of us who are sitting in our nice, safe homes, on the bus home/ out, in the pub, etc will never be able to relate. My biggest childhood trauma was loosing family pets, grandparents dying and the usual childhood stuff. I cannot conceive what a different life experience would have resulted in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 mr_baynes


    As someone who grew up in the immediate vicinity of the disappearance it was always rumoured that there was collusion among members of the trusted echelons of society of that era. A 2002 article by Jim Guerin in the independent hinted at these and gave an account of the incident as if it were fact including an eyewitness account of Philips disappearance and supposed death. I am unsure how he was allowed to write such a piece when none of the content was ever confirmed and more importantly why his sources were not questioned by the guards. Although I assume 'journalistic privilage would have been highlighted. However, these 'witnesses' may be the same individuals who have provided the information currently being reported upon.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    It will now be tested against Cookes

    Only now????

    I'm wondering why Cookes DNA hadn't been tested against it before now if he'd been reported years before as a suspect?

    Or how as one of the most prolific paedophiles known he didn't even figure as a suspect worth eliminating or investigating, regardless of the latest event.

    A little bit of initiative would be in order from the boys in blue, no???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭aphex™


    Mirror report today refers to paedophile ring in a local pub as hinted above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭scopper


    This is a long thread so I didn't get through all of it. However, I've always been fascinated by cold cases.

    In Philip's case I believe it has always been known who the culprit was. I don't know if that is Cooke who people had in mind. I also wonder who the 1996 person who discussed some involvement was.

    What is known is that Cooke was a proper psychopath. Arms offences back in the 50s, arson attacks on victims from his rape trial, etc. He was a scary person to deal with: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/He's+a+sick,+evil+man..+hopefully+he+will+die+inside+jail%3B+VICTIM'S...-a098688556

    Read the 'colour' in this story. This just about captures him. By any standard he was dark. And so let us not judge those who may have feared him.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    Cooke was ironically very publicly and notoriously homophobic who stated in In Dublin magazine that Radio Dublin would not employ queers and RTE can have them. Here he was raping and killing boys.

    The reason why he withheld the location of the body is typical of psychopaths. Ian Brady did the same. They get a rush of power from being the only one who knows. It allows them to extend the 'thrill of the kill' for decades.

    I am not going to pass judgement on the woman who came forward as like the victims of Jimmy Savile, even in death these monsters have a strange psychological power over their victims. You have to realise that Cooke was a psychopath. He was not like a human being. They are the nearest thing you can get to being a real demon. They are driven by power and control and nothing else. Dr Robert Hare of the Uni British Columbia called them 'Intra-Species Predators'.

    Listen to tones of his voice and phrasing. Very much like Jimmy Savile when Louis Toreau caught him off guard.

    https://youtu.be/EQL8A8rEdg0


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Keane2baMused


    Hearing his voice gives me the creeps.

    Notice how he stopped and cleared his throat before he mentioned the allegations?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭scopper


    The Mirror article mentions a pub where peados met and it's an open secret. I mean how messed up was Ireland or was this common enough?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭scopper


    It should be easy enough to research who were the officers and sergeants involved and line them up for prosecution.

    You remember Dalkey house of horrors where guards were accused of sleeping with an 11 year old girl repeatedly? And nothing happened. And you think they will get stung over this?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Cooke was ironically very publicly and notoriously homophobic who stated in In Dublin magazine that Radio Dublin would not employ queers and RTE can have them. Here he was raping and killing boys.

    The reason why he withheld the location of the body is typical of psychopaths. Ian Brady did the same. They get a rush of power from being the only one who knows. It allows them to extend the 'thrill of the kill' for decades.

    I am not going to pass judgement on the woman who came forward as like the victims of Jimmy Savile, even in death these monsters have a strange psychological power over their victims. You have to realise that Cooke was a psychopath. He was not like a human being. They are the nearest thing you can get to being a real demon. They are driven by power and control and nothing else. Dr Robert Hare of the Uni British Columbia called them 'Intra-Species Predators'.

    Listen to tones of his voice and phrasing. Very much like Jimmy Savile when Louis Toreau caught him off guard.

    https://youtu.be/EQL8A8rEdg0

    He sounds like an Irish version of Rev Jim Jones.
    "If people want to leave they can ....."
    Calm tone but boiling with rage .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    scopper wrote: »
    The Mirror article mentions a pub where peados met and it's an open secret. I mean how messed up was Ireland or was this common enough?

    Was? It still is. There are towns in Ireland where the whole town knows that residents are raping their kids. It's very prolific. I'm personally aware of 3 (2 convicted) pedophiles living in the same estate near me in Dublin, and they are only the ones we know about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Was? It still is. There are towns in Ireland where the whole town knows that residents are raping their kids. It's very prolific. I'm personally aware of 3 (2 convicted) pedophiles living in the same estate near me in Dublin, and they are only the ones we know about.

    Er, if whole multiple towns know about certain people raping their children in them, and it's well-known enough about that you know about multiple towns of the same...

    ...would you not consider making an aul report about it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Was? It still is. There are towns in Ireland where the whole town knows that residents are raping their kids. It's very prolific. I'm personally aware of 3 (2 convicted) pedophiles living in the same estate near me in Dublin, and they are only the ones we know about.

    This is absolute nonsense. "whole town knows". Utter bo**ix. Why would you make this up? Your saying that Mary in no. 2 knows that Michael in no. 6 is raping her child , and that everyone in fact knows it and nobody's doing anything about it? Are you totally deluded??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    This is absolute nonsense. "whole town knows". Utter bo**ix. Why would you make this up? Your saying that Mary in no. 2 knows that Michael in no. 6 is raping her child , and that everyone in fact knows it and nobody's doing anything about it? Are you totally deluded??

    I'm sorry you think it's a delusion, I can assure you it's true. The Guards know but in certain places there is a culture of abuse where no one will speak up and it only comes out later when the abuser is dead.

    It is really terrible but even a cursory Google will give you dozens and dozens of hits on convicted Irish pedophiles, and yet the stats show that many go unreported.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭Lisha


    This is absolute nonsense. "whole town knows". Utter bo**ix. Why would you make this up? Your saying that Mary in no. 2 knows that Michael in no. 6 is raping her child , and that everyone in fact knows it and nobody's doing anything about it? Are you totally deluded??

    There is still abuse going on within families that is not being reported. Frankly anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    I've also known people who have reported children as being in danger and the system is totally useless. The system is still failing children every day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    mr_baynes wrote: »
    As someone who grew up in the immediate vicinity of the disappearance it was always rumoured that there was collusion among members of the trusted echelons of society of that era. A 2002 article by Jim Guerin in the independent hinted at these and gave an account of the incident as if it were fact including an eyewitness account of Philips disappearance and supposed death. I am unsure how he was allowed to write such a piece when none of the content was ever confirmed and more importantly why his sources were not questioned by the guards. Although I assume 'journalistic privilage would have been highlighted. However, these 'witnesses' may be the same individuals who have provided the information currently being reported upon.

    I just read Jim Guerin's 2002 Independent account of the kidnapping.
    It is written with such conviction and detail, even referring to the fact
    that the Independent had 'seen evidence', that you are left wondering
    why no action was taken on the aforesaid evidence. You can sense the
    frustration of Mr. Cairns hopping off the page as you read his comments.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Hearing his voice gives me the creeps.

    Notice how he stopped and cleared his throat before he mentioned the allegations?

    He did that in all his broadcasts of pirate radio news so I'm not sure it actually means anything


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    I just read Jim Guerin's 2002 Independent account of the kidnapping.
    It is written with such conviction and detail, even referring to the fact
    that the Independent had 'seen evidence', that you are left wondering
    why no action was taken on the aforesaid evidence. You can sense the
    frustration of Mr. Cairns hopping off the page as you read his comments.

    I agree wholeheartedly, I do feel Mr. Cairns went to his grave knowing the murderer would never be brought to justice.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    I'm sorry you think it's a delusion, I can assure you it's true. The Guards know but in certain places there is a culture of abuse where no one will speak up and it only comes out later when the abuser is dead.

    It is really terrible but even a cursory Google will give you dozens and dozens of hits on convicted Irish pedophiles, and yet the stats show that many go unreported.

    No I can assure you that it is your delusion.
    Name me a town where all the inhabitants stand by and allow paedophiles to abuse their children ?


This discussion has been closed.
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