Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Fleawuss

MonsterCookie wrote: »

ok, and I agree clear thinking is needed. one can think clearly while still acknowledging that there could be understandable reasons why it has taken so long for her to come forward. However, while avoiding emotive language you're coming across as being very cold towards the woman...

I know I am and personally there may be great sympathy for anyone exploited and manipulated in that situation but my concern is on how a society can make it almost impossible for pedophilia to operate. I suppose having heard this catalogue of human misery and destruction again and again and having the book The Kilkenny Incest case still on my shelf I see the same thing over and over. Silence. It's too much for too long.

strandroad

Fleawuss wrote: »

I know I am and personally there may be great sympathy for anyone exploited and manipulated in that situation but my concern is on how a society can make it almost impossible for pedophilia to operate.

It can support the victims. The opposite of what you're doing.
It can give them closure and swift justice. Unlike in the Dalkey, Doyle and countless other cases.

Prosecuting victims and "fcuking them to jail" is not the answer.

Howjoe1

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

What's on the radio is just unreal!

Apparently this man used to meet children in shopping centres and tell them to stand in shops with no cctv and where they wouldn't be seen with him on cctv so he was very clever about going undetected. Guards regularly had to go to his home and forcefully remove children from there.

At the same time apparently Cooke had a garda radio in his car and a police siren blue light for his car. He would radio in to the police and report crimes and would put his blue light on the car and pursue vehicles he believed were involved in crimes. It was so frequent the guards gave him his own radio name, he was called Alpha 7 and they would hear coming over the radio from HQ "stolen car on x road, alpha 7 in pursuit ",they would take his reports seriously and he was one of the lads!

This is unbelievable!

Imagine going to the guards to say you were being abused by their best buddy! That would create a climate where it would be impossible.

The suffering of the Cairns family & the victim of The Dalkey House of Horrors, from the same era, and the Garda "action" or lack of, deserves an independent enquiry.

Sound Bite

Please stop vilifying this woman.

Life is not black and white and unless you've been in her shoes you've no right to condemn her. No doubt the woman has suffered hugely herself - she wouldn't have internalised this information otherwise.

She's been hugely strong and courageous so speaking up now.

Samaris

Howjoe1 wrote: »

listened to it. The Dalkey House of Horrors is from the same era, and I believe a totally independent review of Garda behaviour from that era is needed.

I'm honestly not sure -what- is needed from that era, beyond learning from the mistakes and the casual cruelty of the period. It happened over and over, Laundries, industrial schools, the Church scandal, Dalkey, Savile, Cooke. And the whole concept of the "culture of silence" is indeed true - don't get me wrong on that, Fleawuss, I actually do agree with you on that.

Children were not listened to. Children who spoke against powerful adults were punished. Adults, particularly ex-victims, particularly young women, who spoke out were punished socially. It was wrong and horrendous in hindsight, but it is what happened. Don't rock the boat, don't attack your social superiors. The most vulnerable were abandoned to those most inclined to harm them and there were little to no sanctions against them. Gardai enforced it by inaction (or sometimes by returning the abused to their abusers), schools reinforced the message, the all-powerful Church reinforced it both physically and emotionally using religious imagery and threats. Ordinary families, even the families of the abused reinforced it by not listening, by sending children who "shamed" them away.

Society was just warped in that regard back then. And we are seeing this coming out now and over the past ten to twenty years. We are seeing the culture of silence slowly break down. We have -got- to help it break down, and not by punishment and witch-hunts. We have -got- to support victims who come forward and punish those that harmed them. If we don't, if we focus more on victims' wrongs than their abusers, we rebuild that culture, we ensure that the past remains there and the lessons learned from it are the wrong ones, the culture of silence is passed on.

MonsterCookie

Fleawuss wrote: »

I know I am and personally there may be great sympathy for anyone exploited and manipulated in that situation but my concern is on how a society can make it almost impossible for pedophilia to operate. I suppose having heard this catalogue of human misery and destruction again and again and having the book The Kilkenny Incest case still on my shelf I see the same thing over and over. Silence. It's too much for too long.

mmm, and you still want to throw her in jail for 30 years?

Dolbert

Fleawuss wrote: »

I know I am and personally there may be great sympathy for anyone exploited and manipulated in that situation but my concern is on how a society can make it almost impossible for pedophilia to operate. I suppose having heard this catalogue of human misery and destruction again and again and having the book The Kilkenny Incest case still on my shelf I see the same thing over and over. Silence. It's too much for too long.

Will prosecuting victims:
a) lead to more abusers being arrested or
b) discourage victims from ever coming forward just in case it's been too long?

Your "solution" would only lead to more silence, not less. How do you not see this?

WonkyMe

Was this guy the Jimmy Saville of Ireland. Is there a huge can of worms ready to be opened now?

wokingvoter

wokingvoter wrote: »

No no I've not said that at all. Of course policy can be determined by non involved administrators and in a lot of cases , should.
No you are being very very specific and are stating that in your opinion every victim irregardless of the extent of their trauma and irregardless of their personal circumstances should be prosecuted through the courts for withholding information if they fail to come forward to report their abuser.
Is that your opinion or not? Yes or no?

I'll take that as a yes then. That's all I wanted to know.

Fleawuss

anewme wrote: »

The first quote is from the first couple of pages of this thread. Her reasons are "a heap of steaming Shyte"

The second quote is current and contradicts that.

Is saying "fcuk her in jail for 30 years and we'll call it quits" without knowing any facts not emotive and abusive? Who is we? You are not the self appointed Judge and Jury.

You are contradicting yourself constantly.

I will certainly accept that wanting someone put in jail for 30 years of silence is emotive but not abusive. Like a lot of people here, hearing that after 30 years someone comes forward with information is infuriating. No one here is judge and jury. We all have opinions. I have tried to avoid being abusive toward posters. My position is as I have said consistent.

anewme

Fleawuss wrote: »

I know I am and personally there may be great sympathy for anyone exploited and manipulated in that situation but my concern is on how a society can make it almost impossible for pedophilia to operate. I suppose having heard this catalogue of human misery and destruction again and again and having the book The Kilkenny Incest case still on my shelf I see the same thing over and over. Silence. It's too much for too long.

And as a daughter of someone who grew up in an Industrial School in the 40's and 50's and our family suffered directly as a result I have lived with the outcome of silence. In no way do I blame any of those boys who grew up under those conditions for not coming forward for up to 60 years in some cases.

In fact, the first book written "fear of the collar " told stories of how, ah, we were poor but we were happy and only after was the second book written that the author was able to face the facts himself tell the truth. A lot of people read stuff about themselves. It was a shocking time for our family and turns your life upside down.

I can tell you stories that would make the hair on your head stand. No person should have to justify their reasons for trying to have a life outside of this.

If anyone suggests to me that my Father, or any of those children should be prosecuted or condemned in any way for not speaking up sooner, they will get my wrath.

Not being smart, but having a book on your shelf and an idealistic view devoid of empathy of how to fix society is in no way comparable to real life.

brooke 2

wokingvoter wrote: »

Ok let's take the word of a very well known community activist in Ballyfermot , highly highly regarded, who says that this woman is a victim of Cooke. And that there are many more victims of Cooke.
I am happy to take her word, in fact.
I used the word apparently in the absence of know the girls name.
If we accept that this woman is a victim, will you still continue to condemn her?

I heard Angela Copley on Marian Finnucane this morning. She was very impressive. She pleaded for certain people in the media to stop tormenting the unfortunate girl who married Cooke in 1989 when she was only in her 20s while he was in his 50s. She suffered horrendous abuse from him. She would have been one of the people who went to the Gardai in 2007 to tell them about Cooke, only for her information to have been discounted by them.

Cooke seems to have received some kind of protection. The original convictions made against him were overturned by a superior court.
When he got out of jail, he torched the house of one of the witnesses. Having been brought to court for that, he received a suspended sentence! Incredible!!

Kamili

I'm shocked and appalled by a particular poster's behavior on here. Calling someone's reasons for not speaking out about their abusers actions a steaming pile of shyte is absolutely disgusting.

You don't seem to understand that her life has also been destroyed by this deranged and disgusting abusive man. Her entire life. Throwing her, and already destroyed and deeply distraught woman in jail is absolutely not the right answer. Causing her yet more turmoil and destroying her life even further.

Her life has been destroyed too. Its not her fault, its Cooke's.

Throwing her in jail is wrong. Utterly utterly wrong. She's already serving a life sentence for what he did to her.
It was so terrifying she fainted at the mere mention if his name.

Fleawuss

MonsterCookie wrote: »

mmm, and you still want to throw her in jail for 30 years?

No. I want the circumstances of her silence investigated. If there is case that information was withheld then I want action.

Howjoe1

Samaris wrote: »

I'm honestly not sure -what- is needed from that era, beyond learning from the mistakes and the casual cruelty of the period. It happened over and over, Laundries, industrial schools, the Church scandal, Dalkey, Savile, Cooke. And the whole concept of the "culture of silence" is indeed true - don't get me wrong on that, Fleawuss, I actually do agree with you on that.

Children were not listened to. Children who spoke against powerful adults were punished. Adults, particularly ex-victims, particularly young women, who spoke out were punished socially. It was wrong and horrendous in hindsight, but it is what happened. Don't rock the boat, don't attack your social superiors. The most vulnerable were abandoned to those most inclined to harm them and there were little to no sanctions against them. Gardai enforced it by inaction (or sometimes by returning the abused to their abusers), schools reinforced the message, the all-powerful Church reinforced it both physically and emotionally using religious imagery and threats. Ordinary families, even the families of the abused reinforced it by not listening, by sending children who "shamed" them away.

Society was just warped in that regard back then. And we are seeing this coming out now and over the past ten to twenty years. We are seeing the culture of silence slowly break down. We have -got- to help it break down, and not by punishment and witch-hunts. We have -got- to support victims who come forward and punish those that harmed them. If we don't, if we focus more on victims' wrongs than their abusers, we rebuild that culture, we ensure that the past remains there and the lessons learned from it are the wrong ones, the culture of silence is passed on.

Good post. I've often spoken that if we as children came home (from that era) and said a Priest had done something, we probably wouldn't have been believed by our own Parents.

However, while Cooke is dead now, there are persons who were involved in the Dalkey case still out there who should be brought to justice. Garda files went missing and were falsified.

Cooke was cosy with the Gaurds.

Let me see an independent review and open the can of worms.

brooke 2

Keane2baMused wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-hoped-every-day-for-months-philip-cairns-26420652.html

Have a read.

Late 2007 a former partner of a "suspected paedophile" came forward stating this paedophile (Cooke!) was responsible, and another ex-partner confirmed same.

The gardai investigating however closed the book on it and said it was simply not true.

Maybe if you want to blame someone other than Cooke, blame the authorities for not doing their job with the information at hand.

One would wonder why the Gardai would have discounted the information given by Cooke's
ex-partners.

Kamili

Fleawuss wrote: »

No. I want the circumstances of her silence investigated. If there is case that information was withheld then I want action.

We all know why she didn't speak up.she suffered HORRIFIC abuse by this man. No investigation needed, no action needed.

strandroad

brooke 2 wrote: »

I heard Angela Copley on Marian Finnucane this morning. She was very impressive. She pleaded for certain people in the media to stop tormenting the unfortunate girl who married Cooke in 1989 when she was only in her 20s while he was in his 50s. She suffered horrendous abuse from him. She would have been one of the people who went to the Gardai in 2007 to tell them about Cooke, only for her information to have been discounted by them.

Cooke seems to have received some kind of protection. The original convictions made against him were overturned by a superior court.
When he got out of jail, he torched the house of one of the witnesses. Having been brought to court for that, he received a suspended sentence! Incredible!!

That's the crux of the issue, not a 9 year old terrorised victim witness's decisions. When she came of age, the laundries still existed and Cooke was garda pal "patrolling streets" with them. When she was 30, Cooke's wife's reports were not acted on.

Kamili

brooke 2 wrote: »

One would wonder why the Gardai would have discounted the information given by Cooke's
ex-partners.

I think because Cooke was "helping" the Gardaí as other posters noted. Philips own father in a 2002 piece noted that they knew it was a paedophile that killed him to protect himself.

strandroad

Fleawuss wrote: »

No. I want the circumstances of her silence investigated. If there is case that information was withheld then I want action.

I want to believe that you were just carried over the edge by an internet argument, otherwise you should really scrutinise your values.

anewme

Fleawuss wrote: »

No. I want the circumstances of her silence investigated. If there is case that information was withheld then I want action.

Sorry but that's not what you said earlier. Stop back-pedalling constantly.

You said many times over and over in this thread that you are not accepting any excuses from this woman, everything is a "pile of steaming shyte" and "she should be fcked in jail for 30 years"

You also said abuse victims should be prosecuted if they keep silent as should rape victims and people who were abused by Jimmy Saville.

Yet you speak of ending the silence??? Your attitude will have the opposite effect.

It's an attitude with no empathy and totally lacking any sense of emotional intelligence.

It's an attitude which will make things worse for victims and keep the cycle of abuse going because people afraid to own up will never get the courage to speak out for fear of prosecution. But there's not the emotional intelligence to see that.

Two Tone

Means Of Escape wrote: »

wokingvoter wrote: »

Strange how people's brains work.
As soon as I read this story I assumed that the woman was a past victim of this monster, so afraid of him, even while he was in prison, even on his deathbed, so manipulated and well groomed, by him, that she could not bring herself to tell what she knew until she was sure he could not hurt her or any of her family.
Don't forget he tried to burn to death the family of one of his victims in an arson attack
I was going to say she deserved a medal for her courage
I hope your all very very proud of yourselves

Too little too late

Ah that's just...

Too late, yes, but how can you assess what an abuse victim has been through causing them to be coerced into staying silent by an extremely evil man as just "too little"?! No reports or testimonies and you just dismiss it?

I have most sympathy of all for the Cairns family too but that doesn't require being so indifferent to this woman's plight.

MonsterCookie

Fleawuss wrote: »

No. I want the circumstances of her silence investigated. If there is case that information was withheld then I want action.

The Gardai would no doubt be better placed to form a view of whether the woman has any case to answer.

Clue: They have clearly stated that she has shown courage - given the other contextual information available i.e. she as 9, a victim herself, I for one am happy to leave it to their judgement.

Two Tone

anewme wrote: »

Sorry but that's not what you said earlier. Stop back-pedalling constantly.

You said many times over and over in this thread that you are not accepting any excuses from this woman, everything is a "pile of steaming shyte" and "she should be fcked in jail for 30 years"

You also said abuse victims should be prosecuted if they keep silent as should rape victims and people who were abused by Jimmy Saville.

Yet you speak of ending the silence??? Your attitude will have the opposite effect.

It's an attitude with no empathy and totally lacking any sense of emotional intelligence.

It's an attitude which will make things worse for victims and keep the cycle of abuse going because people afraid to own up will never get the courage to speak out for fear of prosecution. But there's not the emotional intelligence to see that.

Was thinking that too - this is a much more reasonable position being held by Fleawuss compared to their earlier posts. "Pile of steaming shyte" as a response to the reasons for an abuse survivor not coming forward? Really?!

Fleawuss

mhge wrote: »

I want to believe that you were just carried over the edge by an internet argument, otherwise you should really scrutinise your values.

My values are fine thank you. I want proper investigations and action. I want people encouraged to speak out and I want courts to take proper action. Im very tired of the misery inflicted on countless people.

Two Tone

Fleawuss wrote: »

I will certainly accept that wanting someone put in jail for 30 years of silence is emotive but not abusive. Like a lot of people here, hearing that after 30 years someone comes forward with information is infuriating. No one here is judge and jury. We all have opinions. I have tried to avoid being abusive toward posters. My position is as I have said consistent.

Actually you are completely acting like judge and jury.

strandroad

Fleawuss wrote: »

My values are fine thank you. I want proper investigations and action. I want people encouraged to speak out and I want courts to take proper action. Im very tired of the misery inflicted on countless people.

Encouraged by throwing them in jail. I guess you just can't see how victim obsessed you are.

Kamili

Maybe she did come forward already, its been discovered that Gardaí were told it was Cooke as far back as 2007 and ignored it, dismissed it. Despite being told by two different people.

So what would coming forward do? Why are the Gardaí only acting now on information they already had, and blatantly dismissed?
Its a bit convenient that they start naming him after his death, even though they already knew as far back as 2007, maybe even earlier.

brooke 2

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Cooke sounds like our version of Jimmy Saville.

How diid he get away with so much?

Friends in the right places??

Kamili

Fleawuss wrote: »

My values are fine thank you. I want proper investigations and action. I want people encouraged to speak out and I want courts to take proper action. Im very tired of the misery inflicted on countless people.

I'm gonna say it outright, no your values are a wrong, very very wrong.

You're very tired of the misery, yet you insist on inflicting it on the wrong people???