Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

eviltwin

Two Tone wrote: »

I don't get why people jumped to that conclusion though. "Woman" today (and not even a very young woman) can still mean "child" nearly 30 years ago. I am younger than that woman is and I ain't a young un.

The description alone by her made it appear that she could have been a victim.

I thought it was quite obvious myself the woman was a child at the time

Kamili

There's a huge cover up going on with this case and plenty of others in this country, so I think a culture of blame the victim has been promoted to aid covering things up.

mr_baynes

You only have to look at the findings of the morris tribunal and cloyne report to realise that a cover up by members of this apparent grouping is not some far fetched conspiracy theory and seems like the most credible theory regarding the case.

Dice75

mr_baynes wrote: »

Was wondering the same myself. A pub in the area which is now closed always had a shady reputation but not necessarily for the reasons mentioned.

The flying mouse wrote: »

Would that be the pub called c,,,,, ?

I think they are referring to the TF. The pub i suspect & someone Pm'd me about is still open. Really bugs me.

wokingvoter

Mam of 4 wrote: »

In all honesty , I think maybe most people thought it was someone who was an adult at the time that had came forward . I know on first reading it never entered my head that maybe it was a child who had witnessed something , I just assumed , wrongly , that it was an adult who had kept this information to themselves until Cooke had died, which I thought personally was wrong.

Only speaking for myself before anyone accuses me of speaking on how others thought.

I don't understand it at all. Why do people always want to jump to the worst possible conclusion about someone.
I mean you had absolutely no information about this woman or her connection to the Cairns tragedy but your knee jerk reaction was to think the worst. I'm not being critical of you personally. I think it's indicative of the current mindset in Ireland "show nobody any compassion or mercy. Just go bald headed into an attack". (Again, not you)
Some of the comments here in the first 10 or so pages were cringe makingly savage.

tunguska

This is very dark sh1t. I was very young when Philip disappeared but it was a case I never forgot about, it always haunted me and reading the news about Cooke acknowledging basically that he did kill Philip is surreal. I always felt the truth would eventually come out even though it is really disturbing. God only knows how these monsters are created. Elijah wood came out recently and said that Hollywood's biggest problem has always been paedophiles. The entertainment industry seems to be a magnet for them, just like the priesthood was.

brooke 2

LorMal wrote: »

Jesus, if it's true that he was being abused, that's just heartbreaking. The poor poor child.
The more I read about this case, the more angry I feel about the policing. How on earth did they allow Cooke to behave like he did for so long? I just don't understand this.

The way I read it was that Philip Cairns was being abused by someone else, but he confided in Cooke. Cooke only seemed to be interested in girls, but he was friendly with the noted paedophile priest, Bill Carney, who died in jail before he could be brought to court. Cooke was alarmed at Philip's revelation, as an inquiry could lead back to him. To avoid this, he arranged to
have the boy abducted, apparently by someone he trusted enough to get into a car with.

LorMal

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Why do think they allowed it

All I mean is that through poor policing, Cooke got away with so much for so long (I do not know this for sure - but it's beginning to look like it).

We are told that he used to monitor police radio and arrive at crime scenes before the police - he even has his own blue light.
We are told that he burnt the house of one of his victims when he got off on a technicality. We are told by Paul Williams that Cooke had an 11 year old girl 'under his spell' and got her to write to him accusing her step parent of abuse (which wa obviously written by Cooke himself).
We are told that one of his victims were so terrified of him that the police had to move her to another country to protect her.
We are told that he abused possibly hundreds of children and they referred to him as the 'Cookie Monster'.

I don't know - it sounds like incompetence to me. I hope I am wrong. I can hardly contain my upset and anger about this case. I remember it so well.

intheclouds

Dice75 wrote: »

I think they are referring to the TF. The pub i suspect & someone Pm'd me about is still open. Really bugs me.

Thats the one I was referring to.

Can you pm me the one you suspect? There is another local pub where the bar staff are openly drug dealing (I was asked if I wanted a vodka and coke or a vodka and coke AND some coke) but I think thats as far as it goes in terms of criminality in that one.

LorMal

brooke 2 wrote: »

The way I read it was that Philip Cairns was being abused by someone else, but he confided in Cooke. Cooke only seemed to be interested in girls, but he was friendly with the noted paedophile priest, Bill Carney, who died in jail before he could be brought to court. Cooke was alarmed at Philip's revelation, as an inquiry could lead back to him. To avoid this, he arranged to
have the boy abducted, apparently by someone he trusted enough to get into a car with.

I think that's too much speculation Brooke.

Dice75

Dice75 wrote: »

I think they are referring to the TF. The pub i suspect & someone Pm'd me about is still open. Really bugs me.

intheclouds wrote: »

Thats the one I was referring to.

Can you pm me the one you suspect? There is another local pub where the bar staff are openly drug dealing (I was asked if I wanted a vodka and coke or a vodka and coke AND some coke) but I think thats as far as it goes in terms of criminality in that one.

Clue is in my last sentence

LorMal

Kamili wrote: »

There's a huge cover up going on with this case and plenty of others in this country, so I think a culture of blame the victim has been promoted to aid covering things up.

You don't know that - you are just guessing. There is no evidence of a cover up - maybe incompetence - but even that has not been proven yet.

intheclouds

Dice75 wrote: »

Clue is in my last sentence

I see. I just thought that was a rough place.

stoplooklisten

LorMal wrote: »

You don't know that - you are just guessing. There is no evidence of a cover up - maybe incompetence - but even that has not been proven yet.

maybe involvement, aiding and abetting, but as you say, nothing's been proven, we'll have to wait and see

but he sure was cosy with the gardai

LorMal

stoplooklisten wrote: »

maybe involvement, aiding and abetting, but as you say, nothing's been proven, we'll have to wait and see

but he sure was cosy with the gardai

It does look like they treated him as a bit of a joke. Very poor judgement.

LorMal

Samaris wrote: »

I'm honestly not sure -what- is needed from that era, beyond learning from the mistakes and the casual cruelty of the period. It happened over and over, Laundries, industrial schools, the Church scandal, Dalkey, Savile, Cooke. And the whole concept of the "culture of silence" is indeed true - don't get me wrong on that, Fleawuss, I actually do agree with you on that.

Children were not listened to. Children who spoke against powerful adults were punished. Adults, particularly ex-victims, particularly young women, who spoke out were punished socially. It was wrong and horrendous in hindsight, but it is what happened. Don't rock the boat, don't attack your social superiors. The most vulnerable were abandoned to those most inclined to harm them and there were little to no sanctions against them. Gardai enforced it by inaction (or sometimes by returning the abused to their abusers), schools reinforced the message, the all-powerful Church reinforced it both physically and emotionally using religious imagery and threats. Ordinary families, even the families of the abused reinforced it by not listening, by sending children who "shamed" them away.

Society was just warped in that regard back then. And we are seeing this coming out now and over the past ten to twenty years. We are seeing the culture of silence slowly break down. We have -got- to help it break down, and not by punishment and witch-hunts. We have -got- to support victims who come forward and punish those that harmed them. If we don't, if we focus more on victims' wrongs than their abusers, we rebuild that culture, we ensure that the past remains there and the lessons learned from it are the wrong ones, the culture of silence is passed on.

What a fantastic post. The best I have read from anyone on Boards for a long time.

brooke 2

LorMal wrote: »

All I mean is that through poor policing, Cooke got away with so much for so long (I do not know this for sure - but it's beginning to look like it).

We are told that he used to monitor police radio and arrive at crime scenes before the police - he even has his own blue light.
We are told that he burnt the house of one of his victims when he got off on a technicality. We are told by Paul Williams that Cooke had an 11 year old girl 'under his spell' and got her to write to him accusing her step parent of abuse (which wa obviously written by Cooke himself).
We are told that one of his victims were so terrified of him that the police had to move her to another country to protect her.
We are told that he abused possibly hundreds of children and they referred to him as the 'Cookie Monster'.

I don't know - it sounds like incompetence to me. I hope I am wrong. I can hardly contain my upset and anger about this case. I remember it so well.

Some of the Gardai were definitely doing their job as they rescued many girls from Cooke's house. What I don't understand is how he was not prosecuted long before he was. The girls who were successful in finally putting him behind bars had a very very long struggle to do so. Even when he was put in jail the first time, he managed to get back out on a technicality a few years later. Fortunately, it only took a year for him to be returned to prison. He actually appealed against that sentence also, but was turned down.

brooke 2

LorMal wrote: »

I think that's too much speculation Brooke.

Have you read Jim Guerin's 2002 Indo article?
I was amazed how confident he seemed to be
in what he wrote. My 'speculation' is based on that article.

Kamili

LorMal wrote: »

You don't know that - you are just guessing. There is no evidence of a cover up - maybe incompetence - but even that has not been proven yet.

you're right, but from reading in particular Jim Guerin's report from 2002 and the facts around Cooke being let off other offences along with rumours in the area I feel there has been a big cover up. Some of the language in current articles suggest that this evidence tying Cooke to the case was already known, as its only confirming what the Gardai already knew.

Jim Guerin in his 2002 article said that it was known that Philip was killed to protect his killer's identity as a Paedo, and that he had seen statements from people stating this.
In later articles the lead inspector in the gardai in this case absolutely confirmed the peado link was not true, despite two people coming forward to tie Cooke in with Philip's death, yet now they are coming out to say it is?

You really have to wonder...

mr_baynes

brooke 2 wrote: »

The way I read it was that Philip Cairns was being abused by someone else, but he confided in Cooke. Cooke only seemed to be interested in girls, but he was friendly with the noted paedophile priest, Bill Carney, who died in jail before he could be brought to court. Cooke was alarmed at Philip's revelation, as an inquiry could lead back to him. To avoid this, he arranged to
have the boy abducted, apparently by someone he trusted enough to get into a car with.

That is unfounded and most likely false speculation. Firstly, Paul Williams stated on Marian Finucanes programme that victims of Cooke were both male and female. Secondly, if he was reporting an offender, as proposed by several sources, it is probable he told a trusted member of the community as previously suggested by Jim Guerin.

Mam of 4

wokingvoter wrote: »

I don't understand it at all. Why do people always want to jump to the worst possible conclusion about someone.
I mean you had absolutely no information about this woman or her connection to the Cairns tragedy but your knee jerk reaction was to think the worst. I'm not being critical of you personally. I think it's indicative of the current mindset in Ireland "show nobody any compassion or mercy. Just go bald headed into an attack". (Again, not you)
Some of the comments here in the first 10 or so pages were cringe makingly savage.

I agree whole-heartedly that my first thoughts after reading the opening post, were that this witness shouldn't have waited so long to come forward. All I could think of was that maybe Philips parents might have been spared so many years of agony not knowing anything.

Then I thought about it and read more into it and was sickened to think that this was another young child who had been so traumatised and in fear that they had to wait that length of time to say something.

That's why I posted what I did , as I jumped to a very wrong conclusion .

nacho libre

The fecker comes across as clever and haughty in that recording. He is a classic example of "he hears the music, but doesn't feel it" type of person who is incapable of feeling anything for anyone other than himself. It's sad he is just bones in the ground now, but at least he did see the inside of a jail for a while. Hopefully the advances in testing can bring some sort of resolution for his tormented family.

Kamili

nacho libre wrote: »

The fecker comes across as clever and haughty in that recording. He is a classic example of "he hears the music, but doesn't feel it" type of person who is incapable of feeling anything for anyone other than himself. It's sad he is just bones in the ground now, but at least he did see the inside of a jail for a while. Hopefully the advances in testing can bring some sort of resolution for his tormented family.

I think they may already know this, his father did admit that he felt that the truth which has just come out, was the case back in 2002.

LorMal

Its very sad Mam of 4. We need some sort of 'safe place' in this country for children. Not just Childline but somewhere that children under duress can absolutely know for sure that they will be listened to and that action will be taken - and that they will be kept safe immediately.
It must be open 24/7/365. It must be adequately funded.
There is a deep hidden sickness related to sex in Irish society. Our recent history on the issue of paedophilia is perhaps the worst in the entire world - and there was NOWHERE these children could go to tell what was happening to them.
Do we know for certain that it's not happening now?
We have a 'Minister for Children' - lets see if we can finally get our act in order in this sex sick country.

alexonhisown

Was it common knowledge that cooke was being released from prison to go to raheny hospice?
Otherwise how did the witness know it was safe to finally come forward, unless she is a family member or family friend, the timing of her statement is hardly a coincidence

Kamili

alexonhisown wrote: »

Was it common knowledge that cooke was being released from prison to go to raheny hospice?
Otherwise how did the witness know it was safe to finally come forward, unless she is a family member or family friend, the timing of her statement is hardly a coincidence

The witness herself didn't come forward, the councillor of the witness did.

Which at this stage is all a bit convenient. The Gardai would have known he was in palliative care though.. and they apparently had links to him before.

Sounds a bit suspect to me.

LorMal

I just read Jim Guerins 2002 article. Very interesting in the light of what we now know. A person well-known to the boy, who also had an association with the school, offered Philip a lift back to school. - Jim Guerin must know a lot - his information is very exact and detailed. Where is he now?

Means Of Escape

Mam of 4 wrote: »

I agree whole-heartedly that my first thoughts after reading the opening post, were that this witness shouldn't have waited so long to come forward. All I could think of was that maybe Philips parents might have been spared so many years of agony not knowing anything.

Then I thought about it and read more into it and was sickened to think that this was another young child who had been so traumatised and in fear that they had to wait that length of time to say something.

That's why I posted what I did , as I jumped to a very wrong conclusion .

Many people have the opinion that the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few in this case and many others .

Keane2baMused

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Many people have the opinion that the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few in this case and many others .

Well then many need to find a heart.

Means Of Escape

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Well then many need to find a heart.

They already have if they are thinking of the greater number of people affected .