Campaign for BBC3, 4, News 24 and BBC Radio in Ireland.

Well now,
As I've always said.
It is Sky the mean monopoly who are denying Irish subscribers, these channels, and still increasing the sub.
Competition needed badly.
mm

Lenny

Hello, This is my second E-mail to Sky, I still haven't recieved my first one back... I recently sent BCC an E-mail, here is a copy of what I sent.

Hi,

I'm a Sky Digital customer in the Republic of Ireland and I was
wondering if the new BBC3 and 4 will be available to Irish viewers (as
BBC 1 and 2 already are).

Also, why are the BBC Radio stations not available on the EPG here (with
the exception of World Service and BBC Radio Cymru) ? We can tune them
in via "Other Channels", so it's hardly a rights issue. It would however
be more convenient to have access to them on the EPG, as the programme
information can be very helpful.

I'm sure that the availability of all BBC channels would be a major
boost in Sky's move into the Irish market. After all, an ad that says
"Sky Digital !! Now with BBC 3, BBC 4, BBC News 24 and BBC Radio" is
going to sell a lot more digiboxes than an ad that says "Now with Simply
Shopping+".

---

This is another reply I got off BBC

Dear Matthew

Thank you for your e-mail, which has been forwarded to us for reply.

As you may know the proposed BBC THREE and BBC FOUR channels are to be available
on digital in the UK. Direct, free reception of BBC domestic TV via digital
satellite is not possible outside the UK due to programme rights restrictions.
However, some BBC services are now available as part of the Sky Family Channels
subscription package. As this is a service provided directly by Sky TV, please
contact their appropriate office for information on the cost and availability of
services provided to the Irish Republic. It is a matter for SKY if they choose
to negotiate the rights to broadcast BBC THREE and FOUR in the Republic of
Ireland and they should be able to advise you of any plans they may have.

Similarly the EPG is the responsibility of SKY and I would suggest you contact
your supplier directly if you have difficulty with the EPG or wish to suggest
alterations.

Thank you again for contacting the BBC. I hope you continue to enjoy BBC
programmes.

Regards

Stewart McCullough
BBC Information

---

Here is a quote now, what have you(Sky) got to say about this?
"It is a matter for SKY if they choose to negotiate the rights to broadcast BBC THREE and FOUR in the Republic of Ireland and they should be able to advise you of any plans they may have."

I am *very* intrested in hearing a responce,

Many thanks for your time,

Matt.

I sent the following E-mail to two sky address that were posted eariler.

Genghis

I have pasted a reply from the BBC (same contact that others got responses from).

My observations:

1. The ball is clearly in Sky's court. BBC have no objection per se to the additional channels being available through the Irish EPG - though presumably they would expect to be paid for it.

2. Sky may have an agreement in principle to carry all BBC services - they are just exercising their right not to.

3. Sky are not as quick to make their position known - OJ, I am also *very* interested in their response to you.

4. The position is clearly understood at the BBC - you will note that the response I received is similar, though not the same as that sent to others - the guy sending it would seem to have detailed understanding of the situation and is not just choosing from a bank of standard responses.

5. The customer service in the BBC (a publically funded, not for profit, semi-state body whose revenues and survivel are more-or less guaranteed) is absolutely excellent and puts Sky's (a commercial, profit-oriented and customer-reliant corporation) to pitiful shame.

6. The reality is that it would be a real differentiatiing factor and therefore very much in Sky's interest to be the first to provide BBC3 and BBC4. With the pouplarity of the BBC in Ireland and its strong 'brand', coupled with the fact that neither NTL, Chorus or others provide them, this could be a real selling point (though I suppose Sky know that neither platform could cope with additional channels in any way that challenges the widespread geographical scope of Sky).



Anyway, e-mail received:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you for your e-mail.

Direct, free reception of BBC domestic TV via digital satellite is not
possible outside the UK due to programme rights restrictions.

However, as you know, some BBC services are now available as part of the Sky Family Channels subscription package. As this is a service provided directly by Sky TV, please contact their appropriate office for information on the cost and availability of services provided to the Irish Republic and for any plans they may have to add other digital BBC channels to the package in the future.

I am sorry if you have experienced difficulty tuning to BBC Radio
stations through your SKY Digital system. The EPG is, again, a matter for SKY and I would suggest you contact them directly if you require advice relating to this. You should be able to receive a number of BBC Radio stations including Radio 1, 2, 3, and 4 through your current set up.

You can also listen online using streamed audio at:

www.bbc.co.uk/audiovideo

Thank you again for contacting the BBC and I hope that you continue to enjoy our programmes.

Regards

Stewart McCullough
BBC Information

Charles Slane

I get a weekly e-mail from OzSat news (the same guys who used to be on Sky text with the ad for the expensive phone line). They're not the most reliable for information but I'll share this headline with you anyway.

"Launch date announced for two new BBC-tv channels for UK & Eire"

I would assume that they're talking about CBBC and CBeebies (the new childrens channels from the Beeb), but the interesting thing is that they specifically mention Eire. That seems strange to me, because normally the republic is conspicuous by the fact that it's never mentioned.

I wouldn't really put much faith in OzSat's info, but I thought I'd let you know anyway. And who knows, if they're right about the children's channels, maybe BBC 3 and 4 will follow suit.

smoke.me.a.kipper

at least some mention is better than no mention.

[fingers crossed!!]

DMC

I'll offer up the next decade of the rosary for that.

icdg

Just to let you all know, I've just updated the Digital Satellite Campaign page with the latest info from all broadcasters. Thought it might be a good idea to remind all on the forum of its existence (I put it up in the aftermath of the launch of BBC ONE way back in April).

The direct address is:

http://www.iolfree.ie/~icdg/dsat_campaign.htm

Or go to http://icdg.tvfromireland.com and click on "Sky Digital Campaign"

Ronan.

byte

Great stuff, Ronan.:)

Genghis

Sky replied (see below).

Apparently it is a 'programming issue' and nothing to do with Sky ........ Oh, and BBC radio not on the Sky EPG - that is the concern of the BBC.

Also, does it annoy anyone, and / or what does it say about a company when they either do not know or cannot be bothered to issue contact numbers in a format that is diallable from the origin of the viewer comment (i.e. international format).

Sky are supposed to have over 200,000 subscribers and at least double that on cable in Ireland - that might be up to 2.5 million viewers (3/4 viewers per home) - I think that we are worthy of more consideration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you for your e-mail and please accept my apologies for the delay in responding.

Although Channel 4, ITV, ITV2, Channel 5 and BBC broadcasts as part of the Sky digital platform, they also operates as an independent companies, therefore, Sky has no involvement with the programming on these channels.

However, you may wish to contact these channels direct for further information. I have listed their contact details below:

Channel 4 - 0207 306 8333

Channel 5 - 08457 050505

ITV - 0207 843 8000

BBC - 08700 100222

With regard to BBC Radio channels appearing on the Sky Programme guide. You may wish to contact BBC Radio direct for further information. I have listed their contact number below:

BBC Radio - 0207 430 3456


I hope that the above information is of value to you.

Thanks, once again, for contacting us. We always welcome customers'
comments and actively encourage viewers' feedback.

DMC

Dang, now that falls between two stools, or is Sky giving a fob off?

I've just gotten the same reply as Genghis,only worse.
Helen Forbes has told me in her mail,exactly similar as what Charles got earlier,that "BBC programming" is a matter for them.

Thats not what I asked at all! Of Course!!

I would believe the BBC b4 I'd believe Sky on this matter.
mm

Genghis

Does anyone know who Helen Forbes is? My concern is that she is acting as 'gatekeeper' - responding to our valiant campaign with what she considers to be a satisfactory and conclusive response, while the decision makers remain blissfully aware of our concerns.

This begs a second question - can anyone suggest the name of a decision maker (did I read that someone ex-TV3 now heads Sky Ireland) and their e-mail address?

Lenny

*still* haven't recieved an E-mail from Sky about my mail... basterds much be ignoring it..

According to a post in the Cable/mmds section.
NTL have 375,000 customers in Eire.
this is way more than Sky digital.
UTV and Channel four and most of the BBC radio stations are re-broadcast legally on these systems.
Would Sky mind telling us why they are charging so much for all the Dross on their system and yet no UTV and Channel four?????

Bearing in mind NTL analogue have them-they cannot say it costs too much-especially when NTL are providing them to a third or so more customers.

I so hate monopolies-they can do what they like and charge what they like.
For flips sake Al jazeera is there on the EPG and No Fox!!
It's Sky gone mad wanting all our money and not giving us what we want:mad:

They are afraid of those two channels taking advertising away from their "flagships"-Sky one and News.

How frustrating:mad:
mm

ShaneOC

Hi all,

Send your emails to tony.ball@bskyb.com

He is the boss man at Sky. The emails will get passed onto someone who may take a bit of notice. I used this email address as I was getting nowhere with customer services and you should definately get some response other than the standard replies that we have seen.

Alternatively you could send a letter (remember them) to Ian Shepherd who is the Customer Marketing Director. He is the guy who sent us the letter about the price rises last year telling us that it was due to all the extra channels that Sky were getting for us. The address is

Ian Shepherd.
Customer Marketing Director,
Sky Services,
P.O. Box 43,
Livingston,
West Lothian,
EH54 7DD.

Genghis

Shane,

That's great stuff. I am going to do both over the weekend - I want to put a bit of time into them - hpefully we can get some real answers.

Genghis

Genghis

Having read posts here and looked at the many responses I have got back from SKy and others, there is now an idea forming in my mind. Whereas all along I had been thinking that the main reason that the additional UK channels were not coming onstream was 'programming rights'.

But now I can see that is bull:

1. There are virtually no problems with the same programming going out to the same territory via all cable operators. For example, UTV are actively promoting the channel as being an all-island station and are aggressively building on their position. RTE are doing like wise in the UK via Northern Ireland. BBC have agreements for broadcast in Belgium, Holland, Scandinavia and Ireland.

2. Existing cable operators in Ireland are just distributors of multichannel TV - they are not 'broadcasters'. Their business rests on providing the most attractive line-up given limited capacity. The better the line-up the more subscribers they attract / don't lose.

3. Cable operators gain / lose revenue based on their channel line-up.

4. Sky on the other hand are both broadcasters and distributors of TV channels. Their revenues are derived from two sources: subscriptions from their distribution business and advertising from their broadcasting business.

5. This brings up a little dilemma / conflict. Like all TV distributors, they must strive to maximise choice. But as competing broadcasters they must minimse choice.

6. So here is the situation - lets maximise choice to the point where it does not endanger our own business interests.

7. Hence - we can show BBC (they do not take from our ads anyway), but not UTV, C4 or even Tara because their appeal and ability to sell ads will not jeopardise our advertising income.

8. Unlike in the UK, where there is a moral, if not a legal obligation to carry terrestrials, because Sky are a UK operator, incorporated in Luxembourg, and the channels we desire are from a third country, they are in no way obliged to meet the desires of Irish viewers.

9. There is also absolutely no requirement on Sky to produce or deliver ANY Irish broadcasting to Irish viewers. It is practically a national disgrace that the latest trend in broadcasting has resulted in 10s of thousands of homes now receiving No Irish TV (though this is changing).

I therefore believe that the Sky Monopoly is more related to the uniqueness of their dual services - rather than a geographic or other monopoly.

I would also conclude that there is a mass of evidence to suggest that Sky are simply milking the Irish consumer in every way.

The question is: How do we hope to challenge them? Clearly if viewer choice is something that is not in Sky's interest, then on what terms are they likely to agree to change? Competition - but how far away is that.

ShaneOC

Whatever the problem is whether it's programme rights or advertising issues there is no excuse not to have the channels available.

As I said before, we all received a letter from Sky saying that the price rise was to pay for new channels on the Irish EPG. OK we have the two main BBC channels, but why the delay with UTV.

If Sky are allowing the BBC channels on because they do not interfere with the advertising, then why do we not have the extra BBC channels (both TV and radio).

The best way to keep advertising revenue up is to have good programmes. Sky are not too bad in this regard.

Anyway who watches ads? As soon as they come on it's usually flick through the channels and see what else is on.

DMC

I can sum up that post in a nutshell, Ghengis, which I posted some time before.

The reason we dont have BBC News 24 is because Sky News carries Irish advertising.

And so on for the other channels.

Plain and simple.

I think, in answer to your final question, we keep plugging away, and as we now have the executive's e-mail addresses, let's go for it.

DMC

BTW, has anyone had any word from Havelock House, aka UTV ??

Genghis

Originally posted by DamoDMC
BTW, has anyone had any word from Havelock House, aka UTV ??

I added a response about a week ago. The most useful line is:

"We are looking into the possibility of providing our service throughout Ireland on satellite, but there are a number of issues involved so we cannot elaborate any further at this stage"

Lenny

Still got no reply from the other addresss...
forwarded it to tony.ball@bskyb.com

Mossy Monk

no reply whatsoever from anyone except those at S4C who had the decency to do so

Charles Slane

I popped off an e-mail to Tony Ball (any relation to Lucille ?).

Hopefully the reply might be a bit more informative than the ones we've gotten so far.

smoke.me.a.kipper

Ive also sent an e-mail to Tony Ball, quoting part of oj's reply from the BBC. Hopefully by contacting someone higher than customer services, we might be able to get some notice.

Lenny

Still no feckin reply, these chaps are wreakin me head.

ShaneOC

Lads,

I was waiting approximately a week before I got a reply. Patience is a virtue and all that.

Charles Slane

I got a reply from the Tony Ball e-mail yesterday.

My original message was

"Dear Mr Ball,

I'm a Sky Digital customer in the Republic of Ireland and I was wondering if the new BBC3 and 4 will be available to Irish viewers on the Sky Digital platform (as BBC 1 and 2 already are).

Also, why are the BBC Radio stations not available on the EPG here (with the exception of World Service and BBC Radio Cymru) ? We can tune them in via "Other Channels", so it's hardly a rights issue. It would however be more convenient to have access to them on the EPG, as the programme information can be very helpful.

The radio stations are already available on NTL cable in Dublin (including Radio 5 Live).

We also have access to BBC News 24 on BBC 1, so why not put it on the Irish EPG too ?

Let's face it "Sky Digital, now with BBC 3 and 4" is going to sell a lot more subscriptions that "Sky Digital, now with Simply Jewellery".


Thanks for your time,

Charles Slane."

And the reply -

"Dear Charles
Thank you for your recent email to Tony Ball who has asked me to respond on his behalf.

With regard to your query on terrestrial channels being available in the Republic of Ireland. Please allow me to explain.

Sky's aim is to encourage all UK based and Irish terrestrial channels on to digital satellite and, as you are aware, BBC1 and BB2 are now available to Sky customers in the Republic of Ireland. I am happy to advise that RTE has announced that it's three channels will be joining Sky in April and that talks with others are continuing.

When the radio stations launched the BBC decided not to make them available in the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, Sky has only been given limited rights to make certain BBC services available in certain locations.

Sky is always willing to discuss carriage and, in fact, are already
discussing carriage with terrestrial broadcasters on availability and access to these channels for our customers in the Republic of Ireland. However, distribution of these channels is subject to commercial negotiation and the willingness of other broadcasters to be distributed on Sky.

I very much hope that I have clarified our position in this matter and thanks, once again, for contacting us. We always welcome customers' comments and actively encourage viewers' feedback.

Kind regards

Yours sincerely

Penny Harris
Viewer Relations"

It's not the most hopeful reply really, but at least it doesn't seem to be a standard issue, and Penny Harris seems to know what she's talking about.

What do you think ?

ShaneOC

From this it would appear that Sky are willing but not able.

This is taken from a very old post from March last year.

Starting tomorrow, BBC1 and BBC2 will be available across the whole of Ireland for the first time. Under a distribution agreement between the BBC's main commercial arm, BBC worldwide, and British Sky Broadcasting, viewers throughout the Republic will be able to see the same versions of BBC1 and BBC2 as are watched in the North.

BBC Worldwide's chief executive Rupert Gavin said: "We welcome this opportunity to increase the audience of BBC1 and BBC2 in the Republic of Ireland. The two channels have already proved popular with Irish viewers, and we are delighted that a new audience can now enjoy the wide range of programming the BBC has to offer."

As these were the good people responsible for getting us BBC1 and BBC2 in the first place maybe we should try contacting them with regards to getting the rest of the BBC channels on the Irish EPG.

Should have thought of this ages ago.

DMC

Originally posted by Charles Slane
It's not the most hopeful reply really, but at least it doesn't seem to be a standard issue, and Penny Harris seems to know what she's talking about.

What do you think ?

First of all, Charles, a very well scripted letter. It got all the points accross very well.

Its a new line from Sky, yes, and she does look like she is in the know..... which is of no help. Because it was a mail to Tony Ball, it needed a non-scripted reply. She made no mention of BBC 3 or 4, if I were you, I'd reply back and press her on that.

Good work, though!

Damien.