Campaign for BBC3, 4, News 24 and BBC Radio in Ireland.

byte

Yup, Great work, Genghis! Hope the effort pays off.:D :cool:

smoke.me.a.kipper

Originally posted by Genghis
Just got an e-mail back from the PA to the MD of Sky (Mike Hughes).

i got the same e-mail and same as you will not list the name or contact number until i get a full response. maybe now that were dealing with higher up people than cs we might get some real answers.

Charles Slane

The latest reply from UTV -

"Thank you for your e-mail.

The ITV network agreement with Sky makes UTV available on Channel 103 in Northern Ireland only. We are looking into the possibility of providing our service throughout Ireland on satellite, but there are a number of issues involved so we cannot elaborate any further at this stage. "

The latest reply from TV3 -

"Many thanks for your email.
TV3 are in the early stages of discussion with BSKYB regarding this, however, a date has not been confirmed for launch as yet.
Best regards,
TV3"

The replies are not only similar in their content, but also in the way that both of them were written in unusual type-face and in colour (surely the first time I've receivedan "official" reply in colour.

Coincidence ? You decide !


Menwhile I thought you might be interested in this e-mail which I sent to Catherine O'Mahony of the Sunday Business Post. She seems to be the journalist with the most interest in developments in broadcasting in Ireland, and may have professional contact with some of the people who we want to reach.

Hello Ms O'Mahony,

I'm contacting you because the Sunday Business Post has previously provided unparalleled coverage of media news in general, and Sky Digital's penetration of the Irish TV market in particular, and your reporting on these issues has been informative and accurate.

So what I'm trying to find out is this - Is Sky Digital aware that many Irish subscribers feel that they are being treated like second-class citizens in comparison to our UK cousins ?

At present we receive none of the following channels -

BBC Choice (soon to be BBC 3)
BBC Knowledge (soon to be BBC 4)
BBC News 24
Channel 4
Channel 5
ITV 2

We also don't "officially" receive BBC radios 1 to 5 or ITV 1. However these can be added manually but not as part of the EPG.

I have read in your reports that Sky is in discussion with several broadcasters in relation to carriage of their channels. Do you have any more news of the progress of these discussions ?

I'm aware that Sky intend to provide their interactive services to Irish subscribers in the near future, but the core business of Sky Digital is TV channel carriage and it's channel choice that sells it's subscriptions.

Meanwhile more shopping channels are appearing every other week, but don't Sky realise that mainstream quality entertainment channels are what will really increase take-up to an unprecedented level ?

I feel that as Sky's dishes and digiboxes continue to invade the Republic at an astounding rate, more and more people will be interested in news on this topic.

You may be interested in visiting the webpage of the Irish Cable and Digital Guide and following the link to the forum, where there are many postings and stories in relation to future channels, Sky's pricing and other aspects of the digital broadcasting revolution.

The page is here http://icdg.tvfromireland.com/

Finally I'd like to thank you for any reply to this e-mail (whether directly to me or through the pages of the Sunday Business Post), and encourage you in your journalistic endeavours.

Thank you,

Charles Slane.

PacMan

Well done Charles. Your ideas get better with every post!
I sent a text to the Philip cawley show on Today FM. Why ? Well last year he was reporting on a daily basis on his show the amount of time between ordering and installation of Sky. In the end he was happy with the outcome, and several people wrote in to his show about Sky. So he might mention it.......
Today FM telephone number is 1850 715 100 or to text them at 087 4 100 102, maybe text the "Last Word" and Mr. Dunphy might mention it as was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Genghis

Good move, Charles re: the Sunday Business Post.

I wasn't aware of the journalists name, but I notice they almost every week contain news on RTE and Sky. She may well have good contacts - certainly the quality of the news reports is always excellent - in other newspapers, most times you simply get rehashes of press releases after something has happened. In the SBP, many times they capture a breaking story.

There is great momentum in the campaign now!

Couch Potato

Originally posted by Genghis
Does anyone know who Helen Forbes is? My concern is that she is acting as 'gatekeeper' - responding to our valiant campaign with what she considers to be a satisfactory and conclusive response, while the decision makers remain blissfully aware of our concerns.

This begs a second question - can anyone suggest the name of a decision maker (did I read that someone ex-TV3 now heads Sky Ireland) and their e-mail address?

The guy's name is : Mark Deering

Search on the golden pages website gives the following info :

Sky Television
13 Harcourt st Dublin 2 Tel: (01) 4751750

Fax:

Email:

Web:

No e-mail or web details as of yet.

Genghis

I received a response from Sky - Viewer relations on behalf of Tony Ball, MD of Sky. On the whole a bit more positive, though unfortunately not any more concrete. It would seem, though, that the issues raised through this campaign are being considered - though of course, consideration is irrelevant to the Irish viewer, it's action that counts.

Nonetheless, I am relatively happy with the response. Below the Sky response is my original e-mail. I also followed this up by thanking the MD's PA, who originally facilitated my request - her reply was very friendly, and she assured me of personal attention to any contact I make with her. She is a useful contact, and I intend to re-contact her in a few weeks to check on progress.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The response from Sky

Thank you for your recent email to Tony Ball who has asked me to respond on
his behalf.

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your kind comments about Sky digital. It is always pleasing to learn that all of our efforts to provide a first class service are appreciated by our viewers. Although, I should add, I was disappointed to hear that you have not received satisfactory responses to your queries and sincerely apologise for this lapse in good customer service.

With regard to your query on terrestrial channels being available in the Republic of Ireland. Please allow me to explain.

Sky's aim is to encourage all UK based and Irish terrestrial channels on to digital satellite and, as you are aware, BBC1 and BBC2 are now available to Sky customers in the Republic of Ireland. I should also add that I am happy to advise that RTE has announced that it's three channels will be joining Sky in April and that talks with others are continuing.

When the radio stations launched the BBC decided not to make them available in the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, Sky has only been given limited rights to make certain BBC services available in certain locations.

Sky is always willing to discuss carriage and, in fact, are already
discussing carriage with terrestrial broadcasters on availability and access to these channels for our customers in the Republic of Ireland. However, distribution of these channels is subject to commercial negotiation and the willingness of other broadcasters to be distributed on Sky.

I was delighted to read of your enthusiasm for the new Sky + and I can appreciate why you wish to have this excellent product available to you. I can confirm that a project team has been set up for Sky +, extra digi box and second subscription (mirror subscription) to be made available in the Republic of Ireland and, hopefully, this will be available in the near future. Customers will be kept informed of developments through the Sky Customer Magazine.

Sky is very conscious that viewers in the Republic of Ireland cannot at present use our online interactive services, and understand the frustration that this could cause. We are currently conducting the technical work necessary to introduce a range of popular interactive services to viewers in the Republic - including some dedicated Irish services, during the first half of 2002. These services will include games, email, betting and voting.

Home shopping and home banking are more complicated and will not be introduced until the end of 2002 at the earliest. Once again, viewers will be kept informed of developments through the Sky Customer Magazine.

May I further explain with regard to your comments that the latest prices, introduced in July last year, for Sky Box Office movies in Ireland compare very poorly against the UK prices or local video stores. Previously, Irish customers have benefited from a discounted rate on Sky Box Office movies (compared to prices paid by UK customers). Therefore, the prices were brought into line with the UK. Catching a good movie when you want to watch it can be difficult. With Sky Box Office, you have as many as 25 to choose from each day, showing as often as every 15 minutes. This makes it much easier to view when it suits you, in the comfort of your own home and without trips to the video store.

I was interested to read your suggestions for further services dedicated to the Republic of Ireland and it may be that some time in the future these can be taken on board.

Sky see all of our customers whether they are from Ireland or the UK, as being fundamental to our success and we will continue to work hard at providing services.

I very much hope that I have clarified our position and thanks, once again, for contacting us. We always welcome customers' comments and actively encourage viewers' feedback.

If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me direct by email or on Tel No 08702 40300.

Kind regards

Yours sincerely

Penny Harris
Viewer Relations


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My E-mail to Sky

I am writing to you as a senior executive at Sky to ask you for specific answers to my questions as set out below. These issues are of concern to a great deal of viewers in Ireland, of which I understand you now boast 200,000. I have contacted viewer services on a number of occassions, though I have not received satisfactory responses to date.

Let me first say that as a subscriber, I find your service in the main excellent - and certainly superior to my previous cable provider. I do however feel disadvantaged when I look at the UK package which UK subscribers enjoy, and which is featured heavily on your sky.com website. I would really love if Sky could offer the follow to bridge this disadvantage:

1. Extend the UK terrestrial line-up to include BBC Choice, BBC Knowledge, BBC News 24, ITV, ITV2 and Channel 4. I have e-mailed the organisations concerned, and I know they are interested in joining Sky in Ireland (just as soon as you allow it).

2. Similarly with BBC Radio - the BBC are favourably disposed towards making themselves available in Ireland, but Sky commit them to the obscurity of 'Other Channels' - effectively making them an inconvenience to listen to.

3. The new Sky Plus product I have seen you feature on the customer channel looks amazing. Let me have one! Why can't Sky make this product available in Ireland too?

4. And what about mirror subscriptions? Any word on them coming online in Ireland?

5. While the interactive services are already good, many of them (particularly those involving a phone call) are not accessible in Ireland - Why not? - You insist we keep the digibox connected to a phone line, but then never use it!

6. The latest prices for Box office movies in Ireland compare very poorly against either the UK Box office, or indeed local video stores everywhere. I appreciate the convenience, but I hate to be ripped off.

7. Are there any plans to make Irish versions of Sky programming. Since you take subscriptions and advertising from the Irish market, is it too much to expect some Irish programming in return? Surely it must be possible to provide an Irish version of Sky News, as I believe you do in Australia?

8. I also think that Sky need to open more channels to Irish customers - Why not an Irish website, a customer service team dedicated to Irish viewers (which could be handled from your existing Scottish base), Irish contact numbers being listed alongside UK numbers in adverts etc.

It is difficult not to feel ripped-off and second class to UK Subscribers when you read back over the list above as an Irish subscriber. I would love to hear your comments on this.... after all we pay the same price for our services, is it not unreasonable to expect the same service?


Thank you,

Well done Genghis,
Thats a well scripted e-mail and deserved what is obviously a non standard reply from Penny Harris.
It is good to see that someone at Sky is now putting some effort into addressing our concerns.
I do firmly believe that all these services will be available eventually,its only a matter of time before the Domino's fall.
Sky realising it isn't going to lose advertising revenue being one of the domino's.
mm

irishgeo

i just like to say that the reply from sky is crap its the exact same as the reply i got. here is my thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39665 just goes to show they have a copy and paster reply system going at sky. there is a lot similar in it

David C

Unfortunately I too have recieved this exact email twice from Penny Harris...........

Dear David

Thank you for your recent email to Richard Freudenstein who has asked me to
respond on his behalf.
<Insert copy and paste blab>

Dear David

Thank you for your recent email to Tony Ball who has asked me to respond on
his behalf.
<Insert copy and paste blab>

Don't loose faith... Keep firing replies and get people you know to write their own opinions to sky aswell.... Some of these mails must be reaching people at the top! The irritation they cause will eventually work... Next we should find ROI advertisers on UTV/Channel 4 and get them to contact the channels and Sky to show their dissatisfaction

Genghis

I believe it was madman who wisely compared our efforts with Sky as the erosion of granite by raindrop.

Nobody seriously expects that Sky are going to reply immediately with the response we want - for example, many of the issues I raised in my e-mail require legal, structural and organisational changes that don't just happen overnight.

I also do not find it unreasonable that Sky use copy and paste - we are all asking for the same thing, and our replies are channelled to one person - if that was my job, i expect I'd do the same.

My point is this - our campaign needs to be persistent, repeated and targetted - we must not lose heart just because the replies are not instantly gratifying.

I certainly felt that this time my message was heard, and I am sure the intensity of the campaign means that some key people in Sky are now aware of our feelings. Think of it this way - if Penny Harris needs to reply to 100 Irish people all asking for the same things, then our campaign is focussed on one person in Sky. Even if she replies using pasted responses, this is far better than 100 CSR's handling one query each.

I say keep the campaign up with the same intensity at Sky, and also take up some of the other suggested campaign vehicles - the media, advertising agencies, etc.

I stand corrected!
But at least the bit they are pasting is changing:D
Sky Will not offer any of the Uk terrestials with the exception of BBC one and two unless they are convinced it's not going to lose them advertising on Sky One and News due to a fall off in Viewership,as a result of making ITV and ch4 and News 24 available-thats the reason plain and simple.
That position will not change untill another player offers these channels and threatens Sky's dominant position in the market place.
I have seen nothing here or in Kevin's campaign to convince me otherwise.
I do believe though that the competition will arrive eventually and thats when Sky will do a u-turn.
I am glad that it has been pointed out by David C and Kevin that there is no "special" treatment for anybodies e-mail.
Penny should be forced to take the lie-detector test when she says "We Care....."They don't give a flying F^^^K about us only our money!
In the meantime...
There is some hope of having the radio stations-that is probably why they are allowing us the "privilege" of having them via Add channels-no such luck with news 24!
mm

Originally posted by Genghis:

I certainly felt that this time my message was heard, and I am sure the intensity of the campaign means that some key people in Sky are now aware of our feelings. Think of it this way - if Penny Harris needs to reply to 100 Irish people all asking for the same things, then our campaign is focussed on one person in Sky. Even if she replies using pasted responses, this is far better than 100 CSR's handling one query each.

you have the nail on the head there.
It is easy to get dispondent when faced with similar replies and no sign of action.
I think now it's a question of convincing Sky that this is what people want.
The more e-mails they get the more they will realise that, getting worried about losing advertising is silly.
The more popular channels,there are on the platform , the more popular the platform will be.
It attracts a whole new host of viewers etc.

Having said that its gonna take time:(
mm

Mredmond

As someone who does not subscribe to Sky digital but hopes to dump Chorus some time this year and switch over, I’ve been following this campaign with great interest since the start. I’ve felt that it would be somewhat disingenuous of me to join in and demand a level of service of SKY until such time as I actually pay them something, hence I haven’t formally contributed. [He also servers who only stands and waits, or in this case, reads].

Anyway, I’d like to pass on some observations, for what they might be worth:

Most of the e-mail recipients have been sending standard replies, although its interesting that the standard seems to have changed slightly recently. Nevertheless, Copy and Paste is the order of the day. However, its just possible that the folks at SKY are making very similar comments about the senders. Its very obvious that a concerted campaign is being mounted, yet no one has come out and admitted as much. While it might not seem important, a point raised way back in the thread about each single e-mail representing 1000 viewers might not ring true to SKY’s ears, if they feel that a small group – or maybe even one or two individuals using many e-mail addresses – are purporting to be something they are not. I’m not suggesting that this scenario is in fact true, only that it could appear that way. My suggestion is not that each individual painstakingly draft each message personally from scratch, rather that the campaign “comes out of the closet”.
a. Get a name
b. Get a Website
c. Get members to actually sign up – thereby gathering potential viewing figures for Sky.
d. Contact relevant terrestrial channels requesting comments for publication on this site.
e. Ditto-crucial advertisers.
f. If SKY won’t bother to do the research showing how they would accelerate the sale of their services, and increase advertising revenue by meeting the campaign “demands”, then do that research for them. Make the business case irrefutable.

These are only my feelings about the campaign as a very interested observer. I wish you all the best of luck and congratulations on the excellent effort to date.

mr

irishgeo

i have tried your suggestion of lauching a name and a website but support for my idea has been sadly lacking. The name is SKy Ireland Viewers Action Group .The address is http://sivag.cjb.net

Originally posted by Mredmond:

If SKY won’t bother to do the research showing how they would accelerate the sale of their services, and increase advertising revenue by meeting the campaign “demands”, then do that research for them. Make the business case irrefutable.

Unfortunately,count the posters here and add on some friends and relations and thats all you have-hardly a challenge for the might of Sky.
Their "experts" are obviously convinced,wrongly imho that putting these channels on in ROI will hurt Sky more than it helps them.

Sky have to be convinced that they are first and foremost a Television channel delivery platform.
And while the confict of interest exists in that they own some of the channels on their Delivery platfom and want to promote and sell advertising on them-They will be slow to Budge.

The Crucial lack of a competing platform is whats allowing this situation to exist - pure and simple imho.

I honestly doubt if Sky as a monopoly will give in to us so to speak.
It costs them nothing to posture us with some "nice" e-mails.

I would hate to think that the only oufit to benefit from all our efforts are the ISP's and Phone companies:mad:
mm

Genghis

Surely we are not the only people mentioning these issues to Sky. There must be many people asking about these issues every day to Sky representatives - whether directly via Sky customer services centre, or through retailers, installers, contractors, etc.

I presume parties such as the retailers and contractors would love to be able to 'sell more channels' and so more subscriptions, be able to sell more equipment (such as multi LNBs and the Sky+ equipment) and so surely they convey their message upwards, too.

Sky know well what Irish people want. They also know what the situation is in Ireland (very weak competition, big demand for digital TV, no regulation) and as a commercial organisation, they are unlikely to move quickly when the current situation suits them so well.

None of the above is any excuse for not campaigning, though.

Charles Slane

I guess it's like Tesco stocking Persil, when they have their own brand of washing powder on sale as well.

Say they open a new store somewhere and decide they won't bother stocking Persil, because they'll sell more of their own brand if Persil isn't on the shelves.

If nobody asks the staff for Persil and either just buys the own brand washing powder, or worse still for Tesco's sake, just starts using Superquinn across the road because they have a better range of products (including Persil), then Tesco will not know that their customers want Persil and won't know how many people stopped shopping in their store because they didn't sell Persil.

Now you could argue that Sky is a monopoly, so in this case there is no "Superquinn" across the road, but to say that something is a monopoly implies that there is no choice. People have plenty of choice when it comes to TV.

Firstly, a lot of people have the option of cable and may not be interested in having hundreds of channels (most people will tell you that satellite channels are crap, even if they've never seen them). Plus digital cable seems to be finally making progress.

Secondly, most people are able to receive the four Irish channels through an aerial. No subscription to pay and a fair amount of choice.

Thirdly, people can just switch off their TV (and go and do something interesting for a change).

These are the choices that Sky Digital are fighting against to increase their subscriber base and therefore increase their profits.

Everyone in Ireland has heard of the BBC, ITV and Channel 4, and most would agree that they are quality TV channels. In this case these channels are the product that will get people moving to the Sky platform.

Sky need to be told this.

And the people who are choosing not to subscribe (because these channels are not available) have no reason to put pressure on Sky to carry them. Why should they, they're not subscribers !! But we have every reason to petition Sky, because we have most to gain.

Back to the Tesco analogy -

If no one asks for Persil, Tesco won't stock it.

If one person asks for Persil once, Tesco won't stock it.

If one person asks a few times, they might start to take notice.

If several people ask a few times, you can bet they'll realise that they're missing out on customers because of it, and the Persil will appear on the shelves (maybe a higher shelf than the own brand, which will be on shelf 106).

Having said all that, I prefer Bold myself. But that's no reason not to ask for Persil.

Let's do it !!

irishgeo

well said charles. i prefer the new tab things myself because they are easy to use. but you make a valid point. If you dont ask they wont know you want it. Lets try a snail mail i think and see if we get the same replies as the emails.

Charles Slane

Here's the latest missive to Sky -

Hi,

I'm a Sky Digital subscriber living in Ireland, and I've recently been informed by e-mail from Sky Viewer Relations that the availability of BBC3 and BBC4 in the Republic was entirely in the hands of the BBC.

I'd like to quote an e-mail from the BBC which implies that this may not be entirely the case -

" ....some BBC services are now available as part of the Sky Family Channels
subscription package. As this is a service provided directly by Sky TV, please
contact their appropriate office for information on the cost and availability of
services provided to the Irish Republic. It is a matter for SKY if they choose
to negotiate the rights to broadcast BBC THREE and FOUR in the Republic of
Ireland and they should be able to advise you of any plans they may have.

Thank you again for contacting the BBC. I hope you continue to enjoy BBC
programmes.

Regards

BBC Information"

As the BBC seem to be putting the responsibility of broadcasting BBC3 and 4 on the shoulders of Sky, I'd like to know (as a Sky customer) whether or not Sky are currently negotiating with the BBC for carriage of these channels on Sky Digital in the Republic of Ireland.

And secondly, are Sky Viewer Relations aware of the demand for the digital BBC Channels, ITV and Channel 4 in the Republic ?

Thanks in advance,

Charles Slane.

Charles Slane

Does anyone know if BBC5LSE will appear on the Irish EPG (like BBC Cymru did), or will we have to beg for it along with the rest of the BBC Channels ?

DMC

AFAIK, there is an encrypted radio station on the BBC transponder for BBC R5LSX. It's not encrypted on UK boxes though, some people in the UK were able to hear a commentary on a game last night.

Let's place the ould begging bowl out again, Charles.....

Charles Slane

According to another forum BBC5LSE has appeared on 907 on the UK EPG.

Does anyone know if it's on the Irish EPG ?

Or is it there with a "This programme is not available" banner ?

Krusty_Clown

Unfortunately not...
Its not there at all.

Charles Slane

So now BBC5LSE is just another channel that we have to hassle BBC and Sky Digital to get.

I have to say that at this point I'm getting just a bit tired of e-mailing all the interested parties. I haven't gotten a reply from anybody in the last few days. Maybe they're just ignoring us now.

Let's face it, the interested parties probably couldn't give a damn about our opinions.

Maybe it's time to give up on trying to get the Beebs, Channel 4 and 5 on the Irish EPG, and just spend some money on a second digibox on EBay with a BBC/ITV card.

Should we give up on this campaign ?

Mossy Monk

i wont be giving up. i have been ignored by these different channels and Sky for a long time now but i'm going to keep sending until i get a satisfactory answer

ShaneOC

Charles,

You have been one of the leading activists for this campaign. Hang tough. We were all waiting a long time to get BBC1 and BBC2. Many of us sent emails to Sky and the BBC asking for the channels and eventually they did come through.

I know you have sent countless emails, but I do feel that a letter tends to carry a lot more weight. Someone was going to send a letter to one of the bosses at Sky, did they get any response? It is easy to delete an email accidentally :rolleyes:

So, I suggest that you send letters to Sky, BBC and BBC Worldwide (the division who negotiated carriage of 1 and 2). The first thing you should say is that you have received terrible customer service/feedback on the emails you have sent. Then quote all of the "it's not our fault" comments that you have received.

Whatever you do I would not waste money on buying a second receiver with a FTV card. Just get a friend or relation in the UK to order one for you. You can have two cards married to the same box and just swap them in and out as you want.

David C

The easiest way to get something sent to them on paper is by fax:
004420 7705 3113

A fax would probably get passed around the office and might get seen by more people.

But I think we have to try everything and snail mail is probably the most effective:
British Sky Broadcasting Ltd
Grant Way, Isleworth, Middlesex TW7 5QD

http://www.newscorp.com/management/bskyb.html

irishgeo

i going to try a fax to a few people i think i let you know how i get on.

DMC

Originally posted by Charles Slane
Should we give up on this campaign ?

Nope. We should keep it going. E-mails can be tossed aside, but snail mails are harder to ignore.


(oooh. 10th page, wow....)