Great big bunch of coke heads!!

Ag marbh

Brother A wrote:

The moral argument, my answer, for what its worth, to the question 'why is doing cocaine wrong' :

---

Ethically, or morally speaking, the heart of Why it is wrong, I would say, is Irresponsibility.
I would see two types of this: 1.social and 2.personal

.SOCIAL IRRESPONSIBILITY

-short term behaviour: when on the drug, people often upset others
and act like jerks etc.. This is irresponsible as it upsets
and disturbs those around you, friends & family & strangers

I and most people I know who take the drug could snort 100 euro's worth and sit without bothering any of the above mentioned. Infact I think the conversation would be more interesting and contribution would be alot better than if we drank 100 euro's worth.

Ag marbh

Wicknight wrote:

What No you aren't.

Drug dealers mix cocaine with these things on purpose to make money, they aren't physco killers, in fact they aren't thinking about the effects at all, they care about the money they can make.

I have no idea where you got the idea that drug dealers are nice people at heart, but I think you are being a tad niave. Do you actually believe drug dealers follow health and safety regulations when producing drugs? Are you serious?

American studies have found that at least 5-10% of ALL cocaine (meaning if you have taken cocaine 10 times odds are at least once it has been mixed with somethign not very nice) is mixed with a substance such as lidocaine, which can be extremely damaging, especially when consumed with cocaine (ironically enough)

I personally have a great interest in this subject. I'd like to know a source from which those percentages came from. To me you sound like someone who is pulling figures out of the air after reading too many media stories.

AARRRGH

Wicknight wrote:

What No you aren't.

Drug dealers mix cocaine with these things on purpose to make money, they aren't physco killers, in fact they aren't thinking about the effects at all, they care about the money they can make.

I have no idea where you got the idea that drug dealers are nice people at heart, but I think you are being a tad niave. Do you actually believe drug dealers follow health and safety regulations when producing drugs? Are you serious?

American studies have found that at least 5-10% of ALL cocaine (meaning if you have taken cocaine 10 times odds are at least once it has been mixed with somethign not very nice) is mixed with a substance such as lidocaine, which can be extremely damaging, especially when consumed with cocaine (ironically enough)

Drug dealers don't mix their drugs with rat poison/cement mix. Where are you getting this BS from?

One thing someone can never call me is niave. I know a few drug dealers (not heroin.) They are people like you and me. They want to make a bit of money doing something which they feel is fine (they take the drugs themselves and don't see any problem with it/the people who buy the drugs are choosing to buy them.)

Drug producers are professional. They know bad drugs are bad for business. They try to make the drugs correctly.

I can't comment on the lidocaine statment as I know nothing about that. But I assure you if you studied everything we eat, you'd find some of the ingredients are bad for you.

dahooligan

Ag marbh wrote:

How can you label drug takers "weak in society". 90% of drug takers are in jobs and a hell of alot of professional's take drugs.

For what purpose? Read back along the thread and you'll see the main reason for apparently taking coke is to seem more out going, to improve self confidence. I don't mean weak as in unable to fend for one's self, but weak as in easily led.

Watch and see how much I get attacked now...

Laguna

I'll give you that DublinDude, most of the food we eat nowadays is laced with additives, foreign bodies (such as fish oil in digestive biscuits.. ew) and other undesired GM ingredients.

I still feel that taking drugs is wrong and at the crux of the matter, illegal. I think people can put any hat on it/view from a liberal perspective, but if something is illegal, it's you know.... illegal, end of story.

AARRRGH

dahooligan wrote:

For what purpose? Read back along the thread and you'll see the main reason for apparently taking coke is to seem more out going, to improve self confidence. I don't mean weak as in unable to fend for one's self, but weak as in easily led.

Watch and see how much I get attacked now...

Same argument appies to alcohol.

The Heineken CEO is a scumbag!!!

dahooligan

dublindude wrote:

The Heineken CEO is a scumbag!!!

Not gonna disagree with you there, so what its breaking down to is a series of levels of acceptance..

Ag marbh

dahooligan wrote:

For what purpose? Read back along the thread and you'll see the main reason for apparently taking coke is to seem more out going, to improve self confidence. I don't mean weak as in unable to fend for one's self, but weak as in easily led.

Watch and see how much I get attacked now...

Thats someone elses personal experience. I myself or my friends dont do it to be outgoing. Some people just enjoy taking it the same way some people enjoy having a few drinks.

Canis Lupus

I tend to find in these arguments that people who are the most passionate anti drugs are often the most ill informed repeating only the stuff they read/see in the media and tv soaps. (bar pdunno, I accept your pm)

I have nevered tried cocaine, as previously stated I get my kicks from drink and weed BUT MY EXPERIENCES with my friends who take coke and pills is that they enjoy themselves. They don't take coke/pills and turn into granny robbing thieves. They don't and haven't develop(ed) mental problems. They don't/haven't alienate(d) themselves from the people around them and they don't act like jerks. They personally do not cause society to crumble when they take these drugs.

These people all have decent jobs. They arrive on time in general everyday. They treat the people around them in both work and outside of work as they themselves would expect to be treated.

The point I'm making is all the serious anti drugs people up above this post don't seem to realise is that IN MODERATION there is nothing wrong about taking cocaine bar it's legality.

WhiteWashMan

Playboy wrote:

How can cocaine use lead to the death of others? Can you passively take cocaine in such excessive amounts that it can kill you. I' like to be at that party!
.

i mentioned drink driving and drugged driving, as opposed to drink driving and using coke.


drink on its own wont kill you if youre drunk, in the same way that drugs wont. obvioulsy there are limits invovled.

Playboy wrote:

I didnt say anything about driving under the influence of coke. It's just as bad imo as drink driving. You cant say something is immoral becuase it is illegal. You have to look at the reasons why it is illegal to make an argument about morality.

youre mixing up comments made to someone else about two different things.

i said in the eyes of the law, using cocaine is wrong, as is drink driving.

i said you could argue the morality of cocaine all day, its all subjective. i never said anything about the morality of drink driving.

i never made any connection between illegality and morality.

Miguel_Sanchez

Ag marbh wrote:

I've yet to hear about a cocaine addict in Ireland. The stuff is so diluted. It's about the only drug I think is useless.

You've obviously led a pretty sheltered life if you've never heard about any cocaine addict in Ireland. Perhaps you don't know any personally. Fair enough. But to say that you've never heard of any is, frankly, ridiculous.

Primetime ran a special (this year or late last year I think) where they interviewed several cocaine addicts in Dublin. For all your assertions and opinions about drugs you seem to be a bit clueless.

AARRRGH

I am sure there are people addicted to cocaine. Just like there are people addicted to McDonalds, going to the gym, having sex, alcohol, feeling bad about themself, hurting others, etc etc.

The addiction argument doesn't really cut it with me.

dahooligan

dublindude wrote:

The addiction argument doesn't really cut it with me.

Doesn't cut what exactly? Doesn't qualify as a reason not to do it?

AARRRGH

dahooligan wrote:

Doesn't cut what exactly? Doesn't qualify as a reason not to do it?

Doesn't qualify as an anti-cocaine argument. It's too general.

Miguel_Sanchez

dublindude wrote:

The addiction argument doesn't really cut it with me.

I'm not arguing that it's a reason not to do it. I'm just saying that cocaine addiction is real. It's a physical addiction that can develop.

Saying it doesn't exist is simply wrong.

Playboy

Wicknight wrote:

Er, not really ... if you look at the amount of drink related crime compared to the amount of people who actually drink and then look at the amount of drug related crime compared to the amount of people who take drugs I think you will find that a much higher precentage of drug takers are involved in crime, especially serious crime, than drink takers

Do you have a source for this or is it an assumption? I would think that the amount of drug related crime by users would be far less than drug related crime (ofc discounting the fact that taking the drug is a crime ). You just have to walk through any city centre late at night to see what people on drink are capable of. There is a small percentage of drug users who are heavily dependent on drugs such as heroine who commit crime to feed their habit but this is far outweighed by the majority of drug users imo who are not in any kind of criminal frame of mind when high and are far more chilled out than people under the heavy influence of alcohol.

Zombrex

dublindude wrote:

Drug dealers don't mix their drugs with rat poison/cement mix. Where are you getting this BS from?

Actually, yes they do ...

US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) wrote:

Uncommonly, strychnine is found mixed with “street” drugs such as LSD, heroin, and cocaine.

US Office of National Drugs Control Policy wrote:

Ounce-level purity in Miami has declined due to increasing use of adulterants, such as caffeine (new this reporting period) and "any white powder." "Any powder" is also reported in Chicago, and a wide range of other adulterants are reported elsewhere: inositol (a crystalline stereoisomeric cyclic alcohol) in El Paso and St. Louis; manitol (similar to inositol) in El Paso and Memphis; baby laxatives in Baltimore and Memphis; chalk, laundry detergent, procaine (an herbal supplement ingredient), and rat poison in Memphis; meat tenderizer (which leads to severe skin abscesses) in Boston; corn starch and crushed vitamin C in El Paso; and talcum or baby powder in Billings, El Paso, and Washington, DC.

Like I said, it isn't common (more common in heorin) but it has and does happen. Just cause you don't want to happen does mean it doesn't

dublindude wrote:

One thing someone can never call me is niave. I know a few drug dealers (not heroin.) They are people like you and me. They want to make a bit of money doing something which they feel is fine (they take the drugs themselves and don't see any problem with it/the people who buy the drugs are choosing to buy them.)

I am going to call you very niave if you believe cause the handful of drug dealers (i would imagine they aren't actually drug dealers, but the low level drug sellers ... where do they get the cocaine they sell?) you have meet are nice guys therefore all drug dealers are nice people who wouldn't ever do something harmful to make money. I must ask you where are you getting this BS.

Just a few days ago (and this was the first google result, there were loads more) a gang of cocaine dealers were arrested in relation to a murder
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/09/19/story57176570.asp

You think these people give a flying toss if you have a bad experience with a adultered cocaine mix? Are you serious... :rolleyes:

dublindude wrote:

Drug producers are professional. They know bad drugs are bad for business. They try to make the drugs correctly.

Drug dealers are professionals, and their profession is making money, not making sure you have a good time. They don't give a crap about you, and I very much doubt you falling over dead from cocaine is going to effect their business at all? What are you going to do, boycott them? Do you even know where your coke comes from? Who would you boycott?

dublindude wrote:

I can't comment on the lidocaine statment as I know nothing about that. But I assure you if you studied everything we eat, you'd find some of the ingredients are bad for you.

Yeah cause most of the food we eat is mixed, 40-60, with a powerful anesthetic :rolleyes:

SpAcEd OuT

Laguna wrote:

What are you basing this on?

I've seen people under the effects of both and I myself have been tipsy from drink, I don't think I've ever mistaken (like a chap I know who took coke/pills) a bartender for a clown in full face paint or been convinced that a bus going down the road was a chariot to take him back to Rome. Drugs like Coke/Pills bring on the onset of hallucinations as in a 'Stimulant', alcohol dehabilitates you and your senses as in a 'Depressant'.

you do not get any hallucinations whatsoever from cocaine.
MDMA in E-X-T-R-E-M-E doses may cause minor hallucinations such as colours brighter and maybe facial distortions but nothing described there.

Either your mate is an idiot attention seeker or you are lying.

Im going with the latter... www.erowid.org

if your going to join this debate educate yourself first please.

Playboy

Brother A wrote:

The moral argument, my answer, for what its worth, to the question 'why is doing cocaine wrong' :

---

Ethically, or morally speaking, the heart of Why it is wrong, I would say, is Irresponsibility.
I would see two types of this: 1.social and 2.personal

.SOCIAL IRRESPONSIBILITY

-short term behaviour: when on the drug, people often upset others
and act like jerks etc.. This is irresponsible as it upsets
and disturbs those around you, friends & family & strangers

-health effects:
i. Doing coke puts the user at an unknown, and generally
uncontrollable, risk of doing damage to their physical or mental
health --- deliberately and directly, and for their own personal
pleasure only
ii.doing coke puts the user yourself at similar risk of addiction
> Health Effects i & ii point to irresponsibility in relation to friends,
family & society. <


-law: As mentioned in the thread, and as most people would know,
using cocaine breaks the law......a crime.
A crime is often thought of as morally 'wrong' in itself.
irresponsibility here relates to disrupting the contract that
holds a society together.


-crime: As everyone will generally acknowledge, using Cocaine
lines the pockets of criminals, organised or otherwise -
which is usually not considered a good thing.


.PERSONAL IRRESPONSIBILITY
At other times &/or places, it might be the generally accepted view that the strictly 'personal' aspects of body/mind abuse involved here would in themselves be 'wrong'
Today in this society though, it seems people generally accept what one person does so long as it affects no other person.
And perhaps this is as it should be, BUT, I feel we should be wary that
'accept' does not turn to 'ignore' in this context.

---

The above irresponsibilities apply to the actual abuser of coke, and many of
the same points could of course be applied to those who encourage or condone its use.However, perhaps the charge of social irresponsibility could also be levelled at those who, knowing of its significant negative side, see or hear of the drug being used, but yet say nothing.

In all fairness that is a load of bull.

You say that people that use coke act like jerks - that is a ridiculous generalization.

You say that it puts the user at "at an unknown, and generally uncontrollable, risk of doing damage to their physical or mental health --- deliberately and directly, and for their own personal pleasure only" - no more or less than alcohol does. And what do you mean by uncontrollable?

You say that "doing coke puts the user yourself at similar risk of addiction Health Effects i & ii point to irresponsibility in relation to friends, family & society." - again no more than alcohol does.

"As mentioned in the thread, and as most people would know, using cocaine breaks the law......a crime. A crime is often thought of as morally 'wrong' in itself, rresponsibility here relates to disrupting the contract that holds a society together." - If you look to the law for your morality then you are at quite a retarded stage of development.

"As everyone will generally acknowledge, using Cocaine lines the pockets of criminals, organised or otherwise - which is usually not considered a good thing." - it also lines the pockets of poor farmers in third world countries who have nothing else to live on.

Miguel_Sanchez

Wicknight wrote:

Actually, yes they do ...

Ok - while I accept that there is plenty of nasty **** that can get mixed into drugs I do not buy the rat poison one.

I'd like to see one story where it was found that rat poison was mixed in.

I remember a Garda stating (someone linked to this in an ecstacy discussion on boards.ie this year - search is disabled though so I can't find the link now) that there had never been a case in all the ecstacy seized in Ireland of heroin or rat poison ever being added to it. Now I know we're talking about coke here but there are people who *insist* that rat poison is added to ecstacy and that heroin is added too "to get you hooked on the harder stuff" - this is BS and likewise I think that the whole rat poison added to coke thing is BS too. Mainly because while they may add nasty damaging stuff to coke, rat poison has no benefit when added. Why would they do that when they could add something cheaper and less immediately lethal?

Simply saying "actually yes they do mix coke with rat poison" doesn't prove your point. Unless you've actually seen it being done or have come into the possession of cocaine that has been cut this way then I am not convinced. Urban legends are believed too easily.

Zombrex

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Ok - while I accept that there is plenty of nasty **** that can get mixed into drugs I do not buy the rat poison one.

I really don't care if you buy it or not, I will believe the US Office of National Drugs Control Policy over you.

TBH most of the drug users sound like they just want to bury their heads and say "Nope, this doesn't happen ... blah blah blah not listening", probably because they don't want anything to stop them enjoying taking drugs. I mean honestly DublinDude telling me he doesn't believe drug dealers would do something harmful cause the ones he knows are nice lads. Thats taking the piss :rolleyes: It is very similar to the types of response you get from young people when you talk about sexual transmitted infections with them. They don't want to listen to any mention of harmful effects because they don't want to worry about anything they just want to go out and have sex.

Personally I don't really care if you or others here take drugs or not. But it is pointless to misrepresent the truth about drugs (cocaine is never mixed with harmful substances, drug deals are actually nice people, you can't get addicted to cocaine, drink is more harmful than cocaine etc etc) just cause you guys don't want to feel bad about taking it :rolleyes:

Miguel_Sanchez

Wicknight wrote:

I really don't care if you buy it or not, I will believe the US Office of National Drugs Control Policy over you.

Link? Just because you say that the US Office of National Drugs Control Policy find rat poison in coke doesn't mean they really have. I could just as easily say that they have stated they didn't find any rat poison ever. If you provide a link to these statements then I will believe it.

Wicknight wrote:

Personally I don't really care if you or others here take drugs or not. But it is pointless to misrepresent the truth about drugs (cocaine is never mixed with harmful substances, drug deals are actually nice people, you can't get addicted to cocaine, drink is more harmful than cocaine etc etc) just cause you guys don't want to feel bad about taking it :rolleyes:

I don't think you'll see me saying I take cocaine at all. Also I think if you read my post you'll find that I say that it is mixed with harmful substances. I just stated that it wasn't mixed with rat poison.

Also - the rolleyes icon at the end of an argument doesn't make you seem juvenile at all, so I'd keep that up. It's a shame they don't allow people to hold big pictures of those up during debates cause it really gets the person's point across.

growler

Cocaine does not cause hallucinations, it cannot , the chemistry isn't there for it to do that, its conceivable that if cocaine was mixed with an hallucinogen it could , but thats a different story.


Cocaine can be addictive, but it takes many years of sustained abuse for one to become physically dependent on coke, unlike nicotine for example, however there are a number of people suseptible to physological dependence on that drug , but then the chances are they would become addicted to sommething else anyway as they are prone to addictions.

" Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother A
The moral argument, my answer, for what its worth, to the question 'why is doing cocaine wrong' :

---

Ethically, or morally speaking, the heart of Why it is wrong, I would say, is Irresponsibility.
I would see two types of this: 1.social and 2.personal

.SOCIAL IRRESPONSIBILITY

-short term behaviour: when on the drug, people often upset others
and act like jerks etc.. This is irresponsible as it upsets
and disturbs those around you, friends & family & strangers"

When not on drugs people often upset others and act like jerks, some jerks when on drugs stop acting like jerks, how this relates to social responsibility rather than individual personalities I dont know.

quote" -health effects:
i. Doing coke puts the user at an unknown, and generally
uncontrollable, risk of doing damage to their physical or mental
health --- deliberately and directly, and for their own personal
pleasure only
ii.doing coke puts the user yourself at similar risk of addiction
> Health Effects i & ii point to irresponsibility in relation to friends,
family & society. <"

The health risks of taking cocaine are known, controllable and largely risk free if taken in moderation. If you are dumb enough to snort 8 grams in an evening then you are asking for trouble , if you take a line or 2 with your coffee after dinner you're unlikely to implode. "Personal Pleasure" .. well , exactly, I do lots of things for personal pleasure , some of those things may upset others ( if one was militantly opposed to golf, fishing , snooker, smoking, drinking, sex, monty python movies etc) but why does doing something for personal pleasure make it morally wrong?

AS mentioned above, the risk of coke addiction is paltry compared with the addictiveness of the two most freely available drugs in Ireland, nicotine and alcohol. I know and knew may coke heads over the years, generrally they were middle / upper class lads with too much cash and possibly low self esteem, they were well educated and were not committing crimes to fund their habit.

Cocaine is primarily a middle class drugs, few others can afford it, it has become as normalised within sections of society as coffee. Like many others I totally reject the argument that illegality makes it "wrong" , whats is wrong for me is for me to decide based on my own values and life experience. Double parking is illegal but its not a moral issue. Regarding the funding of criminality issue, its true, it does pay for spanish villas and bmws for the criminals, it also pays for the clothes on the backs of colombian cocaine growers. I am under no illusions about the ultimate fiscal beneficiaries of the cocaine trade, they are not pleasant individuals, but then our law makers have decided that these substances are illegal if it were not it would be a regulated industry like any other.

Miguel_Sanchez

Okay. I accept there was an instance of rat poison being added to cocaine in Memphis.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/drugfact/pulsechk/apr02/powder.html

Damn Elvis.

Miguel_Sanchez

growler wrote:

Cocaine is primarily a middle class drugs, few others can afford it

Unfortunately it's starting to get cheaper and cheaper and so is becoming a working class problem too.

Zombrex

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Just because you say that the US Office of National Drugs Control Policy find rat poison in coke doesn't mean they really have.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/drugfact/pulsechk/apr02/powder.html#ex3

They find an awful lot of other sh*t in coke as well ...

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Also - the rolleyes icon at the end of an argument doesn't make you seem juvenile at all, so I'd keep that up. It's a shame they don't allow people to hold big pictures of those up during debates cause it really gets the person's point across.

Sorry that little rant wasn't directed specifically at you ... though I would question why you didn't believe it was possible rat possion has been added to cocaine before. There seems to be a general idea floating round (again not specifically point at you) that drug dealers are in general nice fellas, which is rather niave in my mind

AARRRGH

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Okay. I accept there was an instance of rat poison being added to cocaine in Memphis.

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/drugfact/pulsechk/apr02/powder.html

Damn Elvis.

Jeff, the anti-drugs, politically correct crowd will do whatever they can to focus on negatives.

I am sure if we all researched any subject we could all put a highly negative spin on it.

Wicknights arguments are desperate, ranting on about rat poison. It's laughable.

Zombrex

dublindude wrote:

Jeff, the anti-drugs, politically correct crowd will do whatever they can to focus on negatives.

I am sure if we all researched any subject we could all put a highly negative spin on it.

Wicknights arguments are desperate, ranting on about rat poison. It's laughable.

I am not ranting on about rat poison, people keep (as in over and over, and rather illogically) stating that rat posion (or specifically strychnine) has never and is never mixed with cocaine. Not only is that completely false, but I have no idea why people find it so hard to believe that it does in fact happen.

Seriously, what is your problem that you can't or won't accept simple facts? Why do you care if rat posion is in cocaine in the first place? If it is then does that mean you have to stop taking it? What are you scared of?

I'm not telling anyone not to take cocaine. I have repeatable said I don't care if people do or don't take cocaine. But what I can't stand is people mis-representing the truth about something just to make themselves feel better about what they do.

Playboy

Wicknight wrote:

Personally I don't really care if you or others here take drugs or not. But it is pointless to misrepresent the truth about drugs (cocaine is never mixed with harmful substances, drug deals are actually nice people, you can't get addicted to cocaine, drink is more harmful than cocaine etc etc) just cause you guys don't want to feel bad about taking it :rolleyes:

What % of cocaine tested had the substances mentioned? I would think it is a tiny fraction of the amount of cocaine used or else the newspapers would full of stories relating to death due to rat poision in cocaine. And btw you are probably a bit naive believing US Office of National Drugs Control Policy. You have to be aware of the propogandist and misinformation approach the US Government has towards drugs.

Some drug dealers are nice people .. other are not .. just like any business in life .. again dont be too quick to believe the stereotypes and propoganda.

Alcohol is also probably just as harmful as cocaine. More people die from alcohol and cigarette related deaths than any other drug.

SpAcEd OuT

sorry I just dont believe rat poison is put into coke,why would it be? there is absoloutely no reason to put it in other than to kill its users and why would a drug dealer want to kill his/her customers? makes no sense.