Why are bus drivers so mean?

Propellerhead

John R wrote:

The Stillorgan road QBC, despite some sections between Donnybrook and Stephens Green where there is slow going is considerably faster than car and is regularly faster than Luas.

Luas is no quicker from Stephen's Green to Sandyford.

I propose to do a series of runs in both directions next week by bus, starting from the car park at Sandyford stop and timing my journey from when I park my car. I will post the results here.

John R wrote:

They (articulated buses)are also designed to carry mostly standing passengers, fine on central London routes where most people will only be on for 10-20 minutes as part of a multi-trip journey but not in Dublin where many will have to stand for up to an hour in one go.
They have been tried here but didn't really fit well.

The artics hadn't a chance to be used at all well if only one door was being used. Madness.

John R

Zaph0d wrote:

This has been a very interesting thread. I would have estimated 35-40 minutes for a peak time journey on this route. But I have not used this journey since the stephen's green changes.

Oddly enough I find it quicker in peak hour than during the afternoon, less random stopping and most of the passengers are quick with tickets/exact fare where in the daytime you get all the buggies, toddlers, change fumblers and coffin dodgers who take their time getting on and off.

Not going into Stillorgan village also saves 5-10mns. They should run them that way all day IMO, in fact I think the 145 does.

Zaph0d wrote:

Given a choice, people will take the Luas over a fast frequent bus. I think this is for the comfort and smoothness of the ride.

Maybe so, there is no accounting for what some people will prefer. On the few occasions I have used it I found the luas surprisingly jerky for a railway. The big downside to luas I would see is the small number of seats, by bus you can be almost guaranteed a seat, on luas most have to stand.

Zaph0d wrote:

Are the transmission systems on buses automatic? Buses seem to jerk around a lot. The drivers sometimes brake too hard.

All automatic. Some drivers do seem to be a bit rough with the brakes but overall no worse than drivers anywhere else. The busesdo take a huge beating from our crap road surfaces and a lot of the bus lanes are in very poor condition, many of them are so narrow that the buses have to be driven over all the drain covers.

Zaph0d wrote:

Would the N11 QBC be significantly improved by better recessing of the bus stops off the road to allow others to pass?

Yes, a line of buses all stopping because the first one has to does slow things down but in many areas there is no space for it such as between Leeson St. and Donnybrook.

Zaph0d wrote:

Where are you talking about?

The worst area is between the junctions of Waterloo Rd and Wellington Place. The bus lane ends before Waterloo Rd. and becomes two/three (really 2 and a half) lanes for left turns into Waterloo Rd and Wellington Pl. but lots of cars use it to fly down the inside legally to jump the queue. Then they sit in the inside lane before the bus lane re-starts after Wellington Pl to bully their way back into the car lane while the Buses queue up behind them.

The lane on Sussex Rd is very narrow with cars parked on the inside, all it takes is one idiot driver who cannot place their car properly in the driving lane and buses get blocked. Some of the car spaces could be removed particularly on the turn from Leeson St which is very difficult when traffic is queued up.

If you want a nice recessed bus stop how about taking away the taxi or coach parking outside the Burlington Hotel? The coach parking in particular is un-necessary, they are parked there all day (Usualy it is coaches on hire to CIE Tours as well) they can use it to load but park in the side streets behind the hotel.

John R

Propellerhead wrote:

I propose to do a series of runs in both directions next week by bus, starting from the car park at Sandyford stop and timing my journey from when I park my car. I will post the results here.

I never said the bus was quicker from Sandyford, it is a good 20min walk from there to the N11. I said it is as quick from Foxrock to the Green as the luas is from Sandyford.

That there has never been a proper Park and Ride for the bus route is bloody ridiculous, all the housing estates around Foxrock/deansgrange are used by commuters takinfg the bus as well as the church car park, but a proper P+R would be far better.

Propellerhead wrote:

The artics hadn't a chance to be used at all well if only one door was being used. Madness.

I already explained why they weren't a success, in general the rear doors were used when they were on the 10 route but you can't have multiple door entry when tickets need to be validated and fares paid.

daymobrew

John R wrote:

The worst area is between the junctions of Waterloo Rd and Wellington Place. The bus lane ends before Waterloo Rd. and becomes two/three (really 2 and a half) lanes for left turns into Waterloo Rd and Wellington Pl. but lots of cars use it to fly down the inside legally to jump the queue. Then they sit in the inside lane before the bus lane re-starts after Wellington Pl to bully their way back into the car lane while the Buses queue up behind them.

Although I don't know this junction (and we are really getting off topic) I'm guessing you mean the lanes between the end of a bus lane and a junction.

I would love to see these lanes made left turn only. This would stop cars using them to jump the queue. As a cyclist it is always a bit scary when an aggressive motorist jumps into the lane as I pass that specific spot.

It would also help at the above junction where these (legal) cheaters block the buses.

antoinolachtnai

(Re: Bendy Buses)

John R wrote:

I don't believe they are suitable for Dublin at all, certainly not in large numbers.
They take up too much roadspace, particularly at bus stops and at terminus locations.
There are just too many narrow and short streets in Dublin for wide use, the odd route is mainly straight and unhindered but most have a lot of tight bends and junctions where waiting for a suitable gap in heavy traffic would be difficult.
They are also designed to carry mostly standing passengers, fine on central London routes where most people will only be on for 10-20 minutes as part of a multi-trip journey but not in Dublin where many will have to stand for up to an hour in one go.
They have been tried here but didn't really fit well.

In one of the dutch cities, they actually used bendy buses _because_ they had so many narrow streets - the rationale was that they couldn't get a tram system through the street network.

It's true that standing for a long journey isn't much fun. But part of the reason the journey takes so long is that the roads are so congested! It's the old vicious circle.

I did a bit of informal time-and-motion study the other day. At Nassau St., at 5.30 in the evening on a good day, one particular bus took 1 minute to board ten passengers (they were all cash customers). It looks to me like there is a big saving to be made by eliminating ticket sales on these buses. (50 cash passengers/trip, a saving of 3 seconds/cash passenger, is a saving of 2.5 minutes per trip, whch adds up to hundreds of hours for the whole fleet everyday.)

By chance, I also saw a bus driver opening the rear doors of his bus near Green's bookstore one morning. I didn't have the stopwatch at the ready, but the passengers were able to disembark remarkably fast. I am convinced that there are substantial savings to be had by introducing these two measures. It would also make it a lot easier for drivers to 'maintain the gap' between buses.

cdebru

antoinolachtnai wrote:

(Re: Bendy Buses)




I did a bit of informal time-and-motion study the other day. At Nassau St., at 5.30 in the evening on a good day, one particular bus took 1 minute to board ten passengers (they were all cash customers). It looks to me like there is a big saving to be made by eliminating ticket sales on these buses. (50 cash passengers/trip, a saving of 3 seconds/cash passenger, is a saving of 2.5 minutes per trip, whch adds up to hundreds of hours for the whole fleet everyday.)

By chance, I also saw a bus driver opening the rear doors of his bus near Green's bookstore one morning. I didn't have the stopwatch at the ready, but the passengers were able to disembark remarkably fast. I am convinced that there are substantial savings to be had by introducing these two measures. It would also make it a lot easier for drivers to 'maintain the gap' between buses.

one minute 10 passengers is 6 seconds per passenger which is pretty good

even if it was only 3 seconds per passenger as you claim using prepaid tickets although i dont know what evidence you have for that

2 and a half minutes is not going to be a huge saving for DB average driver probably does about 6 trips in a days work it is 15 minutes


Bus driving is not like office work where 15 extra minutes could be worked

trying to fit those 15 minutes into the various work time regulations is a bit more complicated

it is possible it could allow some extra journeys to be done IF your timing assumptions are correct

personally I think the Autofare system is as fast as prepaid tickets what slows it down is the issuing of change tickets which should be stopped

It also is alot more flexible and allows for less preplanning of journeys since most people have change in their pockets having the correct prepaid ticket for a particular journey takes a bit more work

Victor

Its more the people who don't have the money ready - despite spending the last X minutes at the bus stop, surely they know they will need "money", even if they don't know exactly how much. They then scummage for said "money" in the bottom of a bag.

cdebru

and the chances are that the same people would wait till the last moment before scrumaging for their bus ticket
it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to them

Blackjack

Victor wrote:

Its more the people who don't have the money ready - despite spending the last X minutes at the bus stop, surely they know they will need "money", even if they don't know exactly how much. They then scummage for said "money" in the bottom of a bag.

That is one of my ultimate pet hates. Crusifiction is too good for those people!
:mad:
:mad:
:mad:

Metrobest

antoinolachtnai wrote:

(Re: Bendy Buses)
In one of the dutch cities, they actually used bendy buses _because_ they had so many narrow streets - the rationale was that they couldn't get a tram system through the street network.
.

Dutch buses also all use the "national strip ticket" system, which allows commuters to pre-pay for their public transport requirements at a substantial discount. The driver stamps your card as you enter the bus, or you wave your pass at him, or he will sell you a ticket for how many zones you are traveling in, although it tends to be tourists who avail of this facility.

Then, to exit you must use one the middle or back door, NOT the front door! This means short dwell times at stops. I think the nature of the stairs on the Dublin double decker buses (I hate the double deckers: they are intimidating for cyclists) also lengthens the dwell times.

cdebru

Metrobest wrote:

Dutch buses also all use the "national strip ticket" system, which allows commuters to pre-pay for their public transport requirements at a substantial discount. The driver stamps your card as you enter the bus, or you wave your pass at him, or he will sell you a ticket for how many zones you are traveling in, although it tends to be tourists who avail of this facility.

Then, to exit you must use one the middle or back door, NOT the front door! This means short dwell times at stops. I think the nature of the stairs on the Dublin double decker buses (I hate the double deckers: they are intimidating for cyclists) also lengthens the dwell times.

there is no problem using a similar system here if the proper infrastructure and enforcement of the law in regard to parking was in place

Red Alert

The current ticket machine system in Dublin Bus is fine as far as i'm concerned. Put in the money, driver hits fare, ticket comes out. If you want to get all day tickets (which inevitably take longer to purchase) then go to a ticket agent. Some of those stupid machines that they've got in UK cities are not suitable at all for here, where my 1.30 fare to town would register as: (ADULT) - (SINGLE) - (1.30) - (ISSUE), as opposed to (ADULT 1.30) over here - the same as the way Centra insist on scanning newspapers.

On the centre-door issue, I don't think the drivers are wrong not to use them. Fact of the matter is that the bus just won't engage sometimes after using it (the RA's and many of the RV's are problematic and the KD&KC's had severe problems with this). I've been stuck on buses sometimes that have done this, and generally unless it rights itself after a few open/close cycles there's no joy at all. Do you really want to be stuck on a bus with 79 angry passengers just cos some suit-wearing person who thinks he knows more about the bus than the driver demands it to be opened?

The root cause of our bus problems is:

1) State Company (which we all own as taxpayers) is being put down by the government (especially harney's army) to favour private operators.

2) See 1.

Metrobest

Red Alert wrote:

The root cause of our bus problems is:

1) State Company (which we all own as taxpayers) is being put down by the government (especially harney's army) to favour private operators.

2) See 1.

This is stock unionspeak: blame the government, moan about lack of funding. What about Dublin Bus management - has that got no role to play?

Let's be clear about one thing. Dublin Bus has never been so well funded, there has never been as many QBCs, yet Dublin Bus is carrying no more passengers than it was ten years ago. Why is that the government's fault, exactly?

Zaph0d

Red Alert wrote:

The current ticket machine system in Dublin Bus is fine as far as i'm concerned. Put in the money, driver hits fare, ticket comes out. If you want to get all day tickets (which inevitably take longer to purchase) then go to a ticket agent. Some of those stupid machines that they've got in UK cities are not suitable at all for here, where my 1.30 fare to town would register as: (ADULT) - (SINGLE) - (1.30) - (ISSUE), as opposed to (ADULT 1.30) over here -

Are you saying it is better to buy tickets on board rather than from a machine on the street because drivers can press buttons faster than passengers? Maybe we should get the Luas drivers to sell tickets in future to speed up the service. Write to Connex with your imaginative suggestion. Also tell them to start using just one door. And stop giving change. And stop accepting bank notes and credit cards. And turn off their smart card system. And double the number of stops on each route.

Fact of the matter is that the bus just won't engage sometimes after using it

Previously in this thread it was stated that rear doors suffer this problem due to lack of use. 'We can't use the doors because they are unreliable due to not being used'.

Do you really want to be stuck on a bus with 79 angry passengers just cos some suit-wearing person who thinks he knows more about the bus than the driver demands it to be opened?

The passengers are all ignorant morons and the service would function much better without them and their interfering suggestions.

Red Alert

Are you saying it is better to buy tickets on board...

No, people shouldn't be purchasing 'complicated' tickets on-board, like 7-days or the like. Otherwise the cash system is fine.

Maybe we should get the Luas drivers to sell tickets in future to speed up the service.

Maybe those idle connex employees who check the tickets for commision on fines should be made sell them to people at known ticket-machine bottlenecks (Cowper, Dundrum etc.).

Write to Connex with your imaginative suggestion.

Doubt that they'd listen. People were complaining about the ticket machines from day one and no change was made.

Also tell them to start using just one door

Why do some of them not press the 'Open all doors' button then?

And stop giving change. And stop accepting bank notes and credit cards. And turn off their smart card system.

Maybe they should improve their crap ticketing system which seems to think 5-second delays are acceptable.

Previously in this thread it was stated that rear doors suffer this problem due to lack of use.

London Bus had this problem with many Metro Cammell's even though the centre door was in constant use.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

This is stock unionspeak: blame the government, moan about lack of funding. What about Dublin Bus management - has that got no role to play?

It is not unionspeak, it is a fact. Dublin Bus have one of the lowest subventions of any city operator in Europe despite Dublin having one of the worst traffic environments to operate bus services.

Metrobest wrote:

Let's be clear about one thing. Dublin Bus has never been so well funded, there has never been as many QBCs, yet Dublin Bus is carrying no more passengers than it was ten years ago. Why is that the government's fault, exactly?

A better question would be why you persist in making up facts that are blatantly
untrue. It took me all of 30 seconds to find data to disprove that one.

http://www.cie.ie/about_us/summary_of_performance.asp#passenger

Dublin Bus 134.4 million journeys in 2000; 149.9 million in 2004.
And from memory the increase in the 5 years up to 2000 was at a similar level.

Your constant posting of fact free opinion is incredibly tiresome.

KC61

Metrobest wrote:

there has never been as many QBCs

There may be roads that are designated as QBC's but there is only one true QBC and that is the Stillorgan Road. Most of the other "notional" QBC's only have bus lanes in one direction (generally inbound) and there are significant elements/points of the route where buses still need to merge with the general traffic.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

London Bus had this problem with many Metro Cammell's even though the centre door was in constant use.

Personally I think you're both missing the point.

Fact: Most other bus companies do use the middle doors and they work.

Fact: Dublin Bus were advised in a report (on their website) almost five years ago that using the middle door would yield substantial improvements in throughput.

If the doors are broken because they weren't used, then they should be fixed and put into use. If they're broken because there's a problem with the buses, then the manufacturer should be held accountable, the doors fixed and put into use. Proportioning blame seems to be more important in Ireland than actually *fixing* the problem.

cal29

Operating the centre doors is not just a matter of opening the doors the appropriate infrastructure ie adequate bus stops and enforcement of the parking regulations in relation to Bus stops all have to be implemented as well.

Untill both of these are done how well are not the centre doors work is academic

markpb

That might be true but, in the meantime, DB would do well to get the doors fixed and working properly so when the other issues are sorted they won't be left wringing their hands citing self-inflicted technical difficulties.

In the worst case, if the doors were fixed, drivers could use their own discretion about when it is safe to use the centre doors and when it isn't.

Red Alert

Personally i'd prefer the extra seat capacity. There's no need for centre doors on a lot of routes anyway. The bodywork is customised on a standard chassis, so the bus operator can choose the layout - they might as well pick the layout that's closest to what we actually use.