Why are bus drivers so mean?

GreeBo

Victor wrote:

Idon't clear a route to the bus stop for the bus driver.

tbh most of the time its pretty difficult to do this, if you move out of their way you are putting yourself between a bus and the other traffic, not a nice spot to be in....

shltter wrote:

just sick of this constant bitching and moaning

err you are posting in a thread titled "Why are bus drivers so mean" I think chances are there will be moaning and bitching.


Only yesterday I had to wait for five 15's on Earslfort Tce until one of them decided to stop for me.
The first 3 decided they were too full to let on one person even though there was no where near max people standing downstairs.
The 4th arrived at the same time as a 14A and so he decided that he didnt need to stop and sailed right past, even though he was half empty and there were were two of us waiting.

The 5th was a pleasant individual anout whom I have no complaints.

shltter

GreeBo wrote:

err you are posting in a thread titled "Why are bus drivers so mean" I think chances are there will be moaning and bitching.

If you have a genuine complaint fine but honestly most of your contributions have just been whining

GreeBo wrote:

Only yesterday I had to wait for five 15's on Earslfort Tce until one of them decided to stop for me.
The first 3 decided they were too full to let on one person even though there was no where near max people standing downstairs.
The 4th arrived at the same time as a 14A and so he decided that he didnt need to stop and sailed right past, even though he was half empty and there were were two of us waiting.

now that is a genuine complaint congratulations

first suggestion get the number of the depot that the 15 operates from AFAIK its ringsend
put the number in your mobile if it happens again ring the garage straight away get the name of the inspector you are dealing with make your complaint no more buses with room should pass you by

next suggestion complain to DB did you get the numbers of the buses involved

GreeBo wrote:

The 5th was a pleasant individual anout whom I have no complaints.

wow that is a shock

Propellerhead

shltter wrote:

where is the win win for Bus drivers in london

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2327743.stm

Well, why can't bus drivers here make best practice elsewhere as part of a deal to secure terms and conditions?

shltter wrote:

most is not good enough all bus stops have to be up to standard besides which the installation of these bus stops started how many years after they tried to introduce the use of the centre doors common sense would have ben to upgrade the bus stops first

Slipform kerbing didn't exist in 1966 when the double door Atlanteans were being introduced. It doesn't exist to any extent in London either, where using both doors for entry and exit has been commonplace for over thirty years.
The newest articulated buses in London have three doors where pax can enter and exit through any one and all tickets on the routes are sold either through robust bus stop ticket machines or via Oyster Cards (multi purpose tickets that make the so-called Luas smart cards look primitive). Crucially, drivers do not have to handle money or validate tickets and there is effective inspection backed up by the police where necessary. People are getting criminal prosections for bunking fares and the system works.

Dublin Bus has now exchanged over half its fleet for buses that are less efficient in entry and exit than the ones that they have replaced, if the buses had been used properly.

shltter wrote:

I hardly expect people to stand waiting for a bus service that DB is not allowed to provide
people have to use whatever public transport is available

Indeed, seeing as the 67/A hasn't increased its' capacity to any degree of significance in the last five years while Celbridge is probably the fastest growing town in Ireland at the moment. Having to wait on average an hour for a bus to Celbridge in the evenings is not a world class service.

I am sure that DB people would love to provide on the 67s fifteen minute frequency off peak and a five to ten minute frequency on peak. Funny that no serious consideration appears to have been given to that by anyone.

There's an election next year folks. People are going to be knocking on your doors soon enough. Badger them for change because it won't happen unless enough people get annoyed about it.

"Ah sure, it will do" isn't good enough anymore. A world class city deserves a world class transportation system, properly resourced and where it's workers don't have to be on the defensive to improve their conditions of employment.

shltter

Propellerhead wrote:

Well, why can't bus drivers here make best practice elsewhere as part of a deal to secure terms and conditions? .

what does that mean

Propellerhead wrote:

Slipform kerbing didn't exist in 1966 when the double door Atlanteans were being introduced. It doesn't exist to any extent in London either, where using both doors for entry and exit has been commonplace for over thirty years.
The newest articulated buses in London have three doors where pax can enter and exit through any one and all tickets on the routes are sold either through robust bus stop ticket machines or via Oyster Cards (multi purpose tickets that make the so-called Luas smart cards look primitive). Crucially, drivers do not have to handle money or validate tickets and there is effective inspection backed up by the police where necessary. People are getting criminal prosections for bunking fares and the system works.

Dublin Bus has now exchanged over half its fleet for buses that are less efficient in entry and exit than the ones that they have replaced, if the buses had been used properly. .

as i said slip form kerbing is for low floor buses to facilitate wheelchair entry and exit

in Dublin we have many bus stops without any kerb nevermind slip form. Bus stops are treated as a safe place to park cars vans and trucks or leave a skip there is little or no enforcement of the law in regard to parking in bus stops

Yet a driver is responsible for providing passengers with a safe entry and exit to the bus. As long as the authorities in this city refuse to do anything to facilitate the use of centre doors they will not be used DB management have grown so tired of trying to have the law enforced that they have obviously decided that getting rid of the centre doors is the best option as it will at the very least cause less confusion for passengers.

Propellerhead wrote:

Indeed, seeing as the 67/A hasn't increased its' capacity to any degree of significance in the last five years while Celbridge is probably the fastest growing town in Ireland at the moment. Having to wait on average an hour for a bus to Celbridge in the evenings is not a world class service.

I am sure that DB people would love to provide on the 67s fifteen minute frequency off peak and a five to ten minute frequency on peak. Funny that no serious consideration appears to have been given to that by anyone.

There's an election next year folks. People are going to be knocking on your doors soon enough. Badger them for change because it won't happen unless enough people get annoyed about it.

"Ah sure, it will do" isn't good enough anymore. A world class city deserves a world class transportation system, properly resourced and where it's workers don't have to be on the defensive to improve their conditions of employment.

Dublin Bus is prevented from increasing its fleet by the department of transport any improvements in services have to come at the expense of some other service
Of course once DB propose moving services from one area to another there are immediate opposition from local government TDs and the plans usually fall apart at that stage

DB recently opened a new garage how many new buses went into this new facility???
NONE buses were just moved from other depots
increased capacity NONE

The department Of transport favours Private companies for new routes of course if there is not much money in it then they are not very interested

it is why we have a plethora of private routes operating to the Airport were they can charge a premium
and other Routes like the circle line that only operate Mon to Fri at peak times last bus is 18:30

I agree we should lobby our TDs and tell them that leaving the main Bus company in limbo for the last 5 years unable to expand or change whilst the city has been growing so fast has been an absolute disaster

just to fill you in the department Of transport has told DB that the buses it was promised for this year have been cancelled

VeeEmmy

Reading this thread out of curiosity. I gave up on the public transport system nearly 5 years ago and bought a car... subsequently moved to the sticks... but I remember db well. Lots of nice drivers and lots of scary ones (you know, the ones that make the little old ladies fall over on abrupt take offs and stops).

Anyway... it annoys me to no end for people to be told that a letter of complaint will do no good because of this specific and that specific.

Letters of complaint DO have a positive effect after a while. Perhaps the specific slight may not be addressed, but after a good few complaint letters, db would get the idea that a bit of customer service training might be in order.

Sometimes, a politely worded letter will actually result in a specific redress of a problem.

No one said all db drivers are bad. Shltter obviously works with db or is related in some capacity. But you overstate in your defense. db isn't perfect, the government isn't perfect, you're not perfect, I'm not perfect.

Formal complaining (I don't like that word) is one way of informing a system that its consumers/constituents are displeased.

db needs passengers. Pi$$ them off and they go away = less money, lower profits. Be nice and make them feel good about being on the bus and they will tend to overlook the complaints expressed here.

But no, the Irish don't complain. "Sure what can you do?" "It won't make any difference anyway." Stay quiet about what bothers you, and it will continue.... just like the nursing homes, just like paedophile priests, etc. You wouldn't want to cause a bother or draw attention to yourself, and sure it wouldn't help anyway, right?

Complain! Be reasonable and polite and address it to the correct person, but COMPLAIN.

Ban

shltter

I have never claimd DB is perfect believe me I know it is far from it.

However there are things that are outside of their control criticising them for things they have no control over is unreasonable.

From the very start of this thread I have advised people to complain.But if your complaint has any chance of success it has to be directed in the right direction. Venting your anger at a Bus driver although understandable will achieve nothing other than perhaps having yourself removed from the Bus.

DB management have the unfortunate view that if nobody complains everything must be ok. Complaints directed to Drivers dont even register on the radar and as such are a complete waste of time.

Complain Yes but do it the right way.

Trojan

shltter: could you do use a favour? Could you start a thread called "How to correctly complain to Dublin Bus", and explain the correct way to complain about:

- rude or obnoxious drivers
- drivers not stopping when there's room on the bus
- frequently late services on a certain route
- buses being dirty or damaged in some way
- ... anything else you or contributers can think of.

We can include contact details for the different depots (and maybe even list routes) at some point.

There is a definite perception of "It won't make any difference anyway" like Banished-She said, so maybe this could help the situation.

Victor

Propellerhead wrote:

Dublin Bus has now exchanged over half its fleet for buses that are less efficient in entry and exit than the ones that they have replaced, if the buses had been used properly.

Less than half. I think only 20 busses are being bought this year.

Only AV (all but 20) and MV models (mini-bus) have no middle door.

John R

Victor wrote:

Less than half. I think only 20 busses are being bought this year.

Only AV (all but 20) and MV models (mini-bus) have no middle door.

70 new buses are due this year. 50 more of the standard AV type and 20 tri-axle double deckers.

The AV are being delivered currently, route 79 (soon to be 79 and 79A to Parkwest) has been converted to wheelchair accessible with them.

These are not extra buses as 70 of the oldest buses (dating from 1991) are being withdrawn, as per government orders DB are not allowed expand their fleet.

Dublin gets bigger, more populated and more congested and somehow DB are expected to serve more people in more areas with the same number of buses and drivers.

antoinolachtnai

Tell me the tri-axles have middle doors. They're not going to operate tri-axles without opening the middle doors, are they? It's hard to see how that could be much more efficient than the bendy-bus.

Zaph0d

John R wrote:

Dublin gets bigger, more populated and more congested and somehow DB are expected to serve more people in more areas with the same number of buses and drivers.

Hey I've got an idea! what if DB used more than one door on their buses and sold tickets through machines rather than delaying the driver? What if they increased their load factor by using info displays on the bus stops? Would that not mean they could serve more people with the same number of buses?

Every company on earth is faced with the problem of doing more with less (efficiency). And the answer is not to tug mammy's skirt and ask for more cash.

John R

Zaph0d wrote:

Hey I've got an idea! what if DB used more than one door on their buses and sold tickets through machines rather than delaying the driver? What if they increased their load factor by using info displays on the bus stops? Would that not mean they could serve more people with the same number of buses?

Every company on earth is faced with the problem of doing more with less (efficiency). And the answer is not to tug mammy's skirt and ask for more cash.

On it's own at most using two doors would decrease journeys by 2 or 3%.

Ticket machines and info displays are suddenly available for free?

Ticket machines only help save significant time by banning any on board payment. For that to be an option ticket machines would have to be installed at every stop, or at least every stop within an area. Even then with the current stage based fare structure it would be too complex, there would be luas length queues at popular stops as people tried to work out where they were going, on what route and at what price.

I don't know of any city/suburban bus network that has ticket machines that widely installed

None of this would enable the increase in frequency needed on current routes and the huge increase in routes needed to properly serve expanding areas of the city.


If you want to make funny remarks about getting more government money then I suggest you stop complaining about the poor service. Until people accept that a good bus transport system costs money, either through high fares or large state subventions and a real commitment to making it work from all then we will remain with the current 3rd class service.

shltter

Zaph0d wrote:

Hey I've got an idea! what if DB used more than one door on their buses and sold tickets through machines rather than delaying the driver? What if they increased their load factor by using info displays on the bus stops? Would that not mean they could serve more people with the same number of buses?

Every company on earth is faced with the problem of doing more with less (efficiency). And the answer is not to tug mammy's skirt and ask for more cash.

and rough guess how many machines would DB need one at everystop throughout the city
i think that would be thousands

it would also involve placing them in some pretty hairy places where the idea of a machine with money sitting in it would not last long

then there is the cost of the upkeep and servicing of these thousands of machines not to mention the security problem of removing cash from said machines


I know you are going to point to the LUAS but there is absolutely no comparison the limited number of stops plus the fact that LUAS machines are not placed in housing estates where even the gardai are afraid to go in

I would imagine it would be cheaper to buy more buses



how would info displays increase load factor


Not to mention that DB has 400 odd buses that only have one door

Blackjack

Having lived in Edinburgh, I have to say the Lothian Bus service is excellent compared to Dublin Bus. While the 2 cities are not entirely comparable (Edinburgh being much smaller, having a large population living in the City Centre and immediate environs, smaller catchment area as well as having a larger city within an hours travel) there are a lot of things that could be adopted by Dublin Bus.
The company is majority owned by the Edinburgh Council, and you can almost set your watch by the buses. They don't give change or offer anything such as change coupons, prepaid tickets run on a Montly direct debit for an annual ticket, or prepaid weekly and monthly which you load up at the companies Offices. There are no ticket agents other than the 2 Lothian Bus offices in the city centre.
They don't give change, and there are only 2 adult (single journey) fares at 80p and £1.
You can purchase a day ticket on the bus for £2.30.
At stops that are common to quite a few routes "Bustrackers" are placed beside the stops which will tell you the estimated time of arrival for the next few buses and the numbers etc.
Drivers can be very friendly or very grumpy, but are generally friendly.
Their newer buses don't have centre doors, although their older buses that do operate a "Enter by Front, Exit Centre" set up.
On one of their busiest routes which travels through the City Centre to the Main Business Park (The Gyle, for those Familiar with Auld Reekie) has it's own dedicated "guided" roadway, where the buses are semi-automated.
Buses are almost always very clean, despite the fact that a lot of customers use them as their dumping ground.
There is another company (First) that operates a bus service in Edinburgh. I've never taken one of their buses so I can't comment.

There are a number of things that Dublin bus could take from the above in order to try to improve the service, however it has to be remembered that Dublin is a very different City to Edinburgh, and the Congestion in Dublin City Centre is a hell of a lot worse than anything that happens in Edinburgh, but not giving people change, offering an on board Day ticket and amending the fee structure to a simpler 2 tier option might certainly go towards helping the matter.

shltter

Zaph0d wrote:

Every company on earth is faced with the problem of doing more with less (efficiency). And the answer is not to tug mammy's skirt and ask for more cash.

DB is not just a company it is a public service if you want DB to be just a company then it would behave like any company for example circleline

Buses would only operate when it is cost effective to do so basically early morning and evening Mon to Fri

No weekend or bank holiday service

it would be very profitable but **** all good as a public transport system

shltter

Blackjack wrote:

There are a number of things that Dublin bus could take from the above in order to try to improve the service, however it has to be remembered that Dublin is a very different City to Edinburgh, and the Congestion in Dublin City Centre is a hell of a lot worse than anything that happens in Edinburgh, but not giving people change, offering an on board Day ticket and amending the fee structure to a simpler 2 tier option might certainly go towards helping the matter.

I agree issuing change tickets is crazy and definitely does not encourage people to use prepaid tickets

hopefully the new ticket machines will be able to issue tickets like all day tickets but i wont hold my breath

AFAIK DB apl=plied to the minister for transport not too long ago for a simplification of the fare structure along the lines you suggested but were turned down

Zaph0d

John R wrote:

On it's own at most using two doors would decrease journeys by 2 or 3%.

a 3% decrease in journey times is a 3% increase in frequency without buying any new buses or hiring any more drivers. Sounds like a good start to me. Anything that lowers journey times or increases frequency will attract more passengers.

Ticket machines and info displays are suddenly available for free?

Info displays would attract more passengers. Ticket machines would reduce journey times/increase frequency and thus attract more passengers. I wouldn't be surprised if they paid for themselves.

Ticket machines only help save significant time by banning any on board payment.

true

For that to be an option ticket machines would have to be installed at every stop, or at least every stop within an area.

There are too many stops. If the interval between stops can't be increased to the 750m used by the Luas, machines could be placed at every second stop.

Even then with the current stage based fare structure it would be too complex, there would be luas length queues at popular stops as people tried to work out where they were going, on what route and at what price.

better that the queues happen at the stops than on the bus.

None of this would enable the increase in frequency needed on current routes and the huge increase in routes needed to properly serve expanding areas of the city.

Maybe so, but I'd be a lot happier about DB getting more cash if they were already doing everything possible to improve the efficiency of their service. Why give them money to buy more buses that can carry nearly 100 people but only have 1 door?

shltter wrote:

I know you are going to point to the LUAS but there is absolutely no comparison the limited number of stops plus the fact that LUAS machines are not placed in housing estates where even the gardai are afraid to go in

Ticket machines at Luas stops in places like Fatima Mansions and Bluebell seem to be holding up well.

shltter wrote:

DB is not just a company it is a public service if you want DB to be just a company then it would behave like any company for example circleline

I agree, as a public company its goal should be to provide the best possible service to all and not just to make the most profit.

antoinolachtnai

Zaph0d wrote:

a 3% decrease in journey times is a 3% increase in frequency without buying any new buses or hiring any more drivers. Sounds like a good start to me. Anything that lowers journey times or increases frequency will attract more passengers.

Actually, you would increase capacity by a lot more than 3 percent if you got an increase in frequency of 3 percent.

(The reason is that it would mean that it would give you the flexibility so that some buses would be able to make an extra journey in the dominant direction at peak times.)

Info displays would attract more passengers. Ticket machines would reduce journey times/increase frequency and thus attract more passengers. I wouldn't be surprised if they paid for themselves.

I would add the proviso that it does take a lot of operational work to get these things to work well.

I agree, as a public company its goal should be to provide the best possible service to all and not just to make the most profit.

Well, it's a 'semi-state company' rather than a 'public' company, but that's just semantics.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Actually, you would increase capacity by a lot more than 3 percent if you got an increase in frequency of 3 percent.

Can you demonstrate that?

antoinolachtnai

Well, we'd have to take over a bus route to really demonstrate it. But let me explain.

Let's say the morning peak round-trip time on a route going into town is 80 minutes (50 minutes into town, 30 minutes out of town).

The saving on time due to improved practices is 3 percent overall. Because of the nature of the savings (ticketing and middle-door) the biggest savings come at peak times.

Let's say that the saving is 8 percent on the inward trip and 6 percent on the outward trip. (These are just convenient figures, but I don't think they're particularly unrealistic in the Dublin Bus situation, where a lot of time seems to be spent at stops.)

So that makes our 'new' trip time 46 minutes inwards and 28 minutes inwards, for a total of 74 minutes. (I've rounded a little here.)

So the time-saving is going to be mainly on-peak, which produces a slightly larger capacity increase at peak times.

But that's not the end of the benefits of the time savings. Let's have a look at the pattern of trip this new journey time generates. (This is just a very simplified model.)

Old schedule (without time saving):

Suburb 6.50
City 7.40

Suburb 8.10
City 9.00


New schedule (with time saving)

Suburb 7.00
City 7.46

Suburb 8.14
City 9.00

So the timings look superficially similar, but in terms of numbers of customers carried, they are completely different. Why? Well, the first bus in the new schedule leaves at 7 am, and on the old one, it leaves before 6.50 am. The first bus isn't really running on the peak period. If you wanted to be dramatic about it, you could say that in this case, the peak capacity on the outer part of the route has been effectively doubled.

Just by being a few minutes later and being closer to the peak, the same bus is much more attractive to commuters. So both buses will be relatively full, rather than the second bus being packed and the first bus being relatively empty. Spreading the load lets you serve commuters much better. (It also reduces the unsocial working hours for drivers a little.)

This isn't the whole story. When the waiting times at stops are shorter, it makes it much less likely that buses will catch up with each other and have to run along in twos and threes. This makes the service more frequent and attractive. It increases capacity slightly by reducing the time buses sit waiting at the terminus.

So making relatively small improvements to the operations can lead to pretty substatial increases in efficiency and customer service. I'm not saying it's easy to make these improvements, because it's not. But it's definitely worthwhile.

John R

You are right to a certain extent however a 5-10% reduction in journey times will not allow any extra journeys to be taken by each bus and driver, it would allow a shorter return time which would mean in some cases a timetable could be maintained with less buses so either an extra service can be worked in or the bus can be released for other routes.

For most Dublin services the centre door would not have much of an effect, particularly in rush hour where flow is mainly in one direction. It is worth pointing out that the most efficient city buses ever used only had one door, namely the rear open platform buses of old. In that mould a single door modern bus equipped with a conductor is pretty efficient as well.
Removing cash and ticket boarding issues is where the big improvements are to be made.

At the moment the cheapest and best way for a vast improvement in capacity using the same number of buses and drivers is to get the buses through the awful congestion that grinds most of the city to a halt every day.

I am not suggesting that all the other stuff be ignored but when it takes an hour for an almost empty cross city bus to make a 20 minute journey into the city in the evening peak to be confronted with a pavement full of p!ssed off commuters demanding to know why there hadn't been a bus for nearly 40 minutes, no extra doors or ticketing solutions in the world will make a difference. As it happens the bus had left it's terminus to schedule as had the preceeding one, exactly 15 minutes earlier.

shltter

apart from the fact that i think the the 8% and 6% is optimistic and based on nothing more scientific than a number off the top of your head

heres why one most journeys at peak time are loading for the first roughly 33% of the journey then for the last 10 to 20% it is unloading usually in around the city centre

only on some cross city routes would there be much loading and unloading at the same time during the morning peak

so the benefit of using the centre doors would be a lot less than you seem to think compared to the new wider aisle wider door front only doors

also during the morning peak there tends already to be alot more people with prepaid tickets or the exact fare they tend to be regular travellers who know where they are going and how much it costs


your example did not show how it would increase capacity even on highly aspirational figures you gave no more journeys where done during the morning peak

I hate to break it to you but 6.50 in dublin is part of the morning peak

All your aspirational figures seem to produce wasthat the bus could leave 10 minutes later and make it up 2 hours later
You took no account that the Bus was now arriving 6 minutes later possibly too later for connections or for people on their way to work
or that the bus was now leaving 6 mintutes late and arriving back 4 minutes later


Dublin Bus is pretty much at capacity at peak times holding a 6:50 bus back ten minutes will just mean that the full bus will be later getting to its destination you cant fit anymore people onto a full bus


Whilst I agree that we need to move to more prepaid tickets hopefully the introduction of integrated ticketing for Dublin will happen soon

Here is a link to suggestions on improving running time on buses some of it has started to be implemented over here but there is a lot more to do

http://www.buspriority.org/performance.htm

GreeBo

especially for my good friend shltter here is a new beef
buses that go well into the southside via Ranelagh & Rathmines/Rathgar are full up by the time they get to the green yet empty at these via points.
Would it be a good idea to have some of those IMP buses that just go in and out to these regular spots?
For the regular buses these spots could be set-down only.

John R

GreeBo wrote:

especially for my good friend shltter here is a new beef
buses that go well into the southside via Ranelagh & Rathmines/Rathgar are full up by the time they get to the green yet empty at these via points.
Would it be a good idea to have some of those IMP buses that just go in and out to these regular spots?
For the regular buses these spots could be set-down only.

The minibuses are all but gone now and I am not sorry that they won't be coming back. They were a good idea to try but were not suited to routes in the city. Higher capacity buses were needed, particularly at peaks and DB went back to double deckers.

Longer distance routes being used by short distance passengers to the detriment of the overall route is common all across the network, it is a function of the way the city and the bus services developed. In the past there were a lot more short routes but as the outer suburbs developed these were extended and in many cases withdrawn in favour of longer routes.

We could do with a number of relief routes to serve the shorter distances from the city, particularly in peak hours. Added to that certain longer distance routes should be operated as express services within a certain distance of the city all the time. That can only be done if there are replacement services to give a frequent short distance alternative. It would be no good pulling a number of buses off the current services for this as the reduction in frequency all round would be a bad trade-off.

What is needed is more buses all round and lots of them.

shltter

yeah all but one or two left i believe and those kitted out for nitelink ticket buses


it is a problem not just on the southside they used to have minimum fare on certain buses to try and allieviate the problem but that has since been dropped due to the prevalence of prepaid tickets

more Buses is the answer unfortunately DB is not allowed to increase the size of its fleet so until that situation is resolved there are no more buses

antoinolachtnai

John R wrote:

You are right to a certain extent however a 5-10% reduction in journey times will not allow any extra journeys to be taken by each bus and driver, it would allow a shorter return time which would mean in some cases a timetable could be maintained with less buses so either an extra service can be worked in or the bus can be released for other routes.

If you shorten the journey by 5 percent, you save 48 minutes in every 16-hour day. This is long enough to add an extra journey to every run.

For most Dublin services the centre door would not have much of an effect, particularly in rush hour where flow is mainly in one direction. It is worth pointing out that the most efficient city buses ever used only had one door, namely the rear open platform buses of old. In that mould a single door modern bus equipped with a conductor is pretty efficient as well.
Removing cash and ticket boarding issues is where the big improvements are to be made.

Well, those older buses were a bit shorter, weren't they? And also, the stairs was beside the door.

The rear door isn't just about boarding time. It's also important for allowing people to exit the bus quickly. This is an issue even on a route where the flow is in one direction.

You could have rear-door boarding too (as they do on some buses in London) and that would definitely reduce the waiting time, even on a one-directional route.

On shltter's point, the longer the peak period, the bigger the benefit will be. There would be a benefit even with a smaller decrease in journey time. But it's still true that the more buses you can get out toward the centre of the peak, the better.

At the moment the cheapest and best way for a vast improvement in capacity using the same number of buses and drivers is to get the buses through the awful congestion that grinds most of the city to a halt every day.

The only problem is that this isn't really within the control of the bus company; the other stuff is.

I am not suggesting that all the other stuff be ignored but when it takes an hour for an almost empty cross city bus to make a 20 minute journey into the city in the evening peak to be confronted with a pavement full of p!ssed off commuters demanding to know why there hadn't been a bus for nearly 40 minutes, no extra doors or ticketing solutions in the world will make a difference. As it happens the bus had left it's terminus to schedule as had the preceeding one, exactly 15 minutes earlier.

No doubt about it, you need more buses to deal with this too.

shltter

antoinolachtnai wrote:

If you shorten the journey by 5 percent, you save 48 minutes in every 16-hour day. This is long enough to add an extra journey to every run..

even if you are right on the 5% and there is nothing to suggest you are

drivers dont work a 16 hour day yes if the 5% was maintained there may be a possibility of some extra journeys but rules governing driving time make it difficult to fit in

however if you could save 5% it would lead to some extra journeys not 5% extra

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Well, those older buses were a bit shorter, weren't they? And also, the stairs was beside the door.

The rear door isn't just about boarding time. It's also important for allowing people to exit the bus quickly. This is an issue even on a route where the flow is in one direction.

You could have rear-door boarding too (as they do on some buses in London) and that would definitely reduce the waiting time, even on a one-directional route..

stairs are beside the door on the centre door buses DB has they are also just behind the driver on the newer front door only buses

rear door boarding would require either the reintroduction of conductors or a move to just prepaid tickets with the added costs of both against the possible benefits

antoinolachtnai wrote:

On shltter's point, the longer the peak period, the bigger the benefit will be. There would be a benefit even with a smaller decrease in journey time. But it's still true that the more buses you can get out toward the centre of the peak, the better..

yes but your 5% would not really allow extra journeys during the peak and provide no extra capacity as DB is pretty much at full capacity during the peak

antoinolachtnai wrote:

No doubt about it, you need more buses to deal with this too.

yes the other stuff has to be dealt with and any saving on time even if it did not allow extra capacity should be investigated as getting people there even a litle bit quicker might encourage more people to use public transport

But really what we need is better QBCs and more buses

antoinolachtnai

All fair comment, I am losing the run of myself with the improvement in speed. I still say you could fit maybe 10 percent or more extra peak direction trips during peak time with just a 3 percent reduction in journey time. Basically have the possibility of fitting in a second or third peak-direction journey before 9am. You could do this with at least one bus in 5, and that would give you a 10 percent increase overall(50 percent increase due to extra journey, divided by 5).

A 3 percent reduction in journey time would definitely mean that you could do 3 percent more miles every day with the same number of buses and drivers. In real terms, that would mean that you would get the equivalent of 30 or 40 extra buses by making these improvements. If you went out to purchase those buses, it would cost you 12 million in capital costs (EUR 400,000 x 30 buses) and maybe 3.6m/year (EUR 120k/bus x 30 buses) in operating costs. So it's worth making a pretty substantial investment in technology and process change to get this saving. Of course, you have to make sure it actually works.

The reason the stuff above is important is that it increases capacity without an increase in operating expenditure. That makes a big difference to the bottom line of the bus company, which is what is needed to ensure that the service is maintained.

Rostering a bus network is definitely a difficult thing to do, especially with so much congestion, and it does reduce the capacity of the system (and rightly so). I would say though, that shorter journey times would make rostering a little bit easier, because the driver will be passing the depot or other changeover point a little bit more often. (Of course, as soon as you shorten the journey time, someone will find another windy road for the route to service.) I think that the way the bus company/companies look after drivers will be critical in the coming years. It will become more and more difficult to recruit drivers who are competent and prepared to put up with all the grief.

I wonder whether we are coming to a point of diminishing returns with introducing new bus lanes. (Just putting it out there.)

On faster boarding/disembarking: on the London-style buses, the entry/exit area is that bit wider. I was just looking at some pictures, and it looks to me like the opening is almost 5'6" wide along the two sides. On a dublin bus, everyone getting on and getting off the bus has to pass through a gap less than 3 feet wide. They generally have to move through a crowd of people to get to the door. It's just a matter of fluid dynamics, you can't get a lot of people through such a narrow, congested area quickly. And of course it's the presence of a conductor that makes the Routemaster setup efficient and safe.

They are doing rear-door boarding in London on the new three-door bendybuses. (You have to use the front door if you're using the carnet or cash.)

John R

antoinolachtnai wrote:

All fair comment, I am losing the run of myself with the improvement in speed. <snip>

Possibly, I do think you may be being a bit optomistic about the amount of time saved but without hard data it is impossible to know for sure.

The effect it would have on the number of extra journeys is also a difficult one, just because enough time is theoretically cleared for an extra trip it doesn't mean it is possible for the driver to complete the run and get back to a suitable handover or bus stabling point. For instance a 10% reduction might mean 1 in 100 drivers are able to complete an extra circuit while a 12% reduction would allow 10 to do so. There also needs to be a fair amount of slack in the rosters so squeezing in extra runs where technically possible can cause serious problems when there are unexpected delays. If a driver ends up stuck in a far flung suburb with a bus full of passengers when his driving time is up what then? He can either carry on and break the law, risking his job and legal trouble for the company or down tools and leave a bus full of passengers stranded until a replacement driver arrives.

As you said rostering for a network as big as Dublin is very complex, especially so with the restrictive work practices for drivers; 90hrs max a fortnight, 4h30 max driving time without a break, 1hr min break which must be taken away from the vehicle, 11hrs min break between shifts. Those are just some of the restrictions and they may be incorrect as they are just from memory of the EU proposals.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I wonder whether we are coming to a point of diminishing returns with introducing new bus lanes. (Just putting it out there.)

Absolutely not. The lack of returns is due to the lanes themselves. I would argue that there is only one proper QBC in the whole city, the N11 route, and the journey times on that speak for themselves. Not until most parts of the city have access to similar journey times will there be no justification for new lanes. The Stillorgan road QBC, despite some sections between Donnybrook and Stephens Green where there is slow going is considerably faster than car and is regularly faster than Luas.

Over the last two years I have taken the same departure home from the city twice a week most weeks, a bus which departs from it's terminus 90% of the time and has never been cancelled I have used it. The overall journey can fluctuate between 40 and 80 minutes with 45-55 minutes being the norm and over 1 hour very infrequent. Despite these fluctuations the section of continuous bus lane from Stephen's Green to Foxrock almost always takes between 20-25 minutes and never more than 30 minutes. Luas is no quicker from Stephen's Green to Sandyford.
The 5.50pm 84X departure from the city typically takes about 1 hour from it's terminus just off Burgh Quay to Kilcoole Co. Wicklow via Leeson St, Stillorgan Road, M11 Southern Cross Bray and Greystones, the train takes 55mns.

I could go out tomorrow with a can of white paint and alter a few short sections of that QBC (one in particular that the QBC office crowd had planned to alter 12 months ago but haven't followed through on yet), eliminate a handful of awkward car parking spaces and take 2-5 minutes off the typical peak time journey.

As far as other bus priority measures we have hardly scratched the surface. Bus activated lights, gates and barriers are needed, particularly in suburban areas where queuing at traffic lights are a major cause of delays. Enforcement is another key measure, adherence to bus lane laws is just as bad as every other traffic law in this country. Fixed cameras at certain locations or even bus mounted cameras.

If the journey times from the N11 QBC could be replicated across the city passenger numbers using the services could be easily doubled with minimal extra resources being needed.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

On faster boarding/disembarking: on the London-style buses, the entry/exit area is that bit wider. I was just looking at some pictures, and it looks to me like the opening is almost 5'6" wide along the two sides. On a dublin bus, everyone getting on and getting off the bus has to pass through a gap less than 3 feet wide. They generally have to move through a crowd of people to get to the door. It's just a matter of fluid dynamics, you can't get a lot of people through such a narrow, congested area quickly. And of course it's the presence of a conductor that makes the Routemaster setup efficient and safe.

I don't think the difference is that great, a routemaster is much smaller both in length and width than a modern lowfloor so the opening may look much larger in comparison than it actually is.

As for conductors, if it is a choice between ticket machines, cashless boarding, smart cards etc or a conductor for speeding things up, no question I would go for the conductor. Just try getting a manager, accountant or politician to consider stumping up the wage bill though.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

They are doing rear-door boarding in London on the new three-door bendybuses. (You have to use the front door if you're using the carnet or cash.)

On most of the routes they are entirely within the ticket machine zone so drivers do no fare or validation duties at all, they have random checks similar to Luas here. Very fast boarding with that.

I don't believe they are suitable for Dublin at all, certainly not in large numbers.
They take up too much roadspace, particularly at bus stops and at terminus locations.
There are just too many narrow and short streets in Dublin for wide use, the odd route is mainly straight and unhindered but most have a lot of tight bends and junctions where waiting for a suitable gap in heavy traffic would be difficult.
They are also designed to carry mostly standing passengers, fine on central London routes where most people will only be on for 10-20 minutes as part of a multi-trip journey but not in Dublin where many will have to stand for up to an hour in one go.
They have been tried here but didn't really fit well.

Zaph0d

This has been a very interesting thread.

John R wrote:

Despite these fluctuations the section of continuous bus lane from Stephen's Green to Foxrock almost always takes between 20-25 minutes and never more than 30 minutes. Luas is no quicker from Stephen's Green to Sandyford.

I would have estimated 35-40 minutes for a peak time journey on this route. But I have not used this journey since the stephen's green changes.

Given a choice, people will take the Luas over a fast frequent bus. I think this is for the comfort and smoothness of the ride. Are the transmission systems on buses automatic? Buses seem to jerk around a lot. The drivers sometimes brake too hard.

Would the N11 QBC be significantly improved by better recessing of the bus stops off the road to allow others to pass?

I could go out tomorrow with a can of white paint and alter a few short sections of that QBC (one in particular that the QBC office crowd had planned to alter 12 months ago but haven't followed through on yet), eliminate a handful of awkward car parking spaces and take 2-5 minutes off the typical peak time journey.

Where are you talking about?