Porn, Strip Clubs And The Like

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

'I don't think there's anything wrong with porn as both sexes can use it for their enjoyment'

Wrong. Porn is geared towards what turns men on,

I have flicked through the internet with my boyfriend,and it is mainly:

A guy getting a blowjob - a woman will have no interest watching this

A guy with a load of different girls - geared to male fantasies

A guy pounding away at a girl who is doing stuff no woman would ever do in real life - scream the house down, play with her boobs etc, while he does nothing else

Really graphic sex - women don't want to see this

It's all geared towards men.

And you don't see a half naked man on page 3 of any papers do you?

Yes, and you're searching for mainstream porn which is geared towards men. You're looking for the wrong thing. In any case, I can argue that many women enjoy the mainstream porn of what you describe above. A few of my ex's had larger porn collections than me, and funnily enough they were a lot more hardcore than to my own taste.

The thing about porn is that its like a onion. It has many layers. If you search on the net, you'll usually get the hardcore or softcore. There is more to it than that. And if you're actually interested, you'll find what you're looking for.

Think of it this way. I like fantasy/sci-fi books. If I go to a bookstore, I'm lucky if there's three shelves of it. However, there's at least three shelves of "steamy romantic" books, or 20 shelves of general fiction. Its about demand, and the demand is there for stuff I'm not particularly interested in. But others are. And there are as many women in the world as men, and they have not been shy about demanding their own niche's.

As for page 3... they're papers geared towards men. They usually have huge sports columns aswell, and the stories reflect the target audience. However if you look at Cosmo or the hundreds of other mags, there are plenty of half naked guys, and stories which appeal to women.

So the 'I don't think there's anything wrong with porn as both sexes can use it for their enjoyment'" is not wrong. Its just that you don't get it. Plenty of other people do.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

LOL at the naivety and the need to be right-on of people who think women aren't exploited in these industries. And strip-clubs where touching is allowed...? That is on the way to crossing the line into prostitution.

Speaking from experience, its not that common. It happens sure, but the clubs themselves crack down on it. They want paying customers coming back for more. They don't want customers to get sex, and then get over their interest in spending money in the clubs. So girls who sell themselves tend to get the axe damn quickly.

Of course plenty of women choose these lines of work and make careers for themselves, but it's dumb to assume it's an independent choice for all women across the board.

And yet that "but" & "all" throws the people who have decided for themselves into a minority. I've known either as friends or girlfriends, 17 lapdancers. None of them told me any stories of being forced into the work. They all admitted to a desire for cash. Its work, pure and simple. Some hate it, some enjoy it. None I have met love it. But then, I can't say I've loved any work I've done in the last 15 years..

Also, seeing the negatives is not a "twisted mentality"... whereas commoditising sex and sexuality can be.

No seeing the negatives is a positive thing. Its dwelling on solely the negatives that is the problem.

Dudess

Well I was referring more to pornography than strip clubs.

And also, viewing these as a "celebration" of sex and nudity (not aiming that at you - just speaking in general) is again dreadfully naive. It's a cold commercial product. The porn industry is supposed to have absolutely horrible pockets - and yes I know, plenty of industries have, and in those other industries when women are forced to perform violent sex acts they'd rather not perform, it's known as sexual harassment,

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

Well I was referring more to pornography than strip clubs.

Um... "And strip-clubs where touching is allowed...? That is on the way to crossing the line into prostitution."

And also, viewing these as a "celebration" of sex and nudity (not aiming that at you - just speaking in general) is again dreadfully naive. It's a cold commercial product. The porn industry is supposed to have absolutely horrible pockets - and yes I know, plenty of industries have, and in those other industries when women are forced to perform violent sex acts they'd rather not perform, it's known as sexual harassment,

I don't view it as a celebration of sex and nudity. I know you didn't particularly target me with this, but as a previous user of clubs, I would consider it as a service similar to a massage. There is nothing seedy involved, unless you have gone on purpose to such an establishment. Just as you can go to a different establishment for massage and sex. The point is that in every market where the human body is involved, some parts will drift towards either the sale of sex.

As for porn, well, it IS a product. It is sold so it is a product. Just as most art out there are products as well. People might harp on about the purity or insight, but at the end of the day the people involved are looking to make money.

Dave!

Those who contend that women don't enjoy being in porn -- how do you explain amateur porn? I shalln't post up any url's for fear of getting banned, but suffice to say there are several large websites where thousands of people put up videos of themselves alone, or with their boyfriend, etc., and they don't get any money out of it even.

Might there be some other dynamic at play?

Joycey

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think its even more retarded to compare someone who's made a choice(the argument Boston was putting forward) to a *slave*.

The slave makes a choice every single time they go along with what their "owner" says to not rebel against the order. They have the option of flat out refusing and either dying or taking whatever other punishment is handed to them.

Joycey

Joycey wrote: »

The slave makes a choice every single time they go along with what their "owner" says to not rebel against the order. They have the option of flat out refusing and either dying or taking whatever other punishment is handed to them.

Its a retarded argument anyway. The majority of porn in the western world occurs in wealthy countries. There isn't a common set of circumstances which would force women either into porn or the sex industry, beyond that of poverty. And even those in fear of poverty have ways of avoiding these industries if they really wish to chose another way. Western society seeks to provide for its citizens and thus there are options.

However, if people are looking at parts of Asia, S.America or Africa, then things are far different. But even then, the culture, tradition, and social perception of these areas of work are far different to that of the western world. Most of the western world was introduced to guilt about sex and viewing the naked body by various churches/religions. Other parts of the world don't have those hangups, and don't view such professions as being as bad as we do. There are social pressures against choosing it, but not to the degree westerners have.

So, for me, the slavery comparison is retarded. The choice is there for most people. While trafficking does exist, its not so large to show that the majority of people (men and women) were forced into either sex or porn industries.

allabouteve

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a retarded argument anyway.

There are social pressures against choosing it, but not to the degree westerners have.

So, for me, the slavery comparison is retarded. The choice is there for most people. While trafficking does exist, its not so large to show that the majority of people (men and women) were forced into either sex or porn industries.

A sizable minority of Asian girls in the sex industry had no choice.

Many of the bar girls in Pattaya Beach were sold into the industry by their impoverished families so they could work and send money home. I also consider a large minority of the whole 'Thai bride' industry to be a branch of the sex industry in that these women are offering themselves to western men as partners in order to finance their families at home. Because of poverty. Not choice.

It would be great to live in a world where all sex workers are in the industry because they made an informed decision to be, and lets face it, it would certainly make the consumers of the industry feel a lot better about themselves to believe that.

But its crimminally wrong to believe it to be the case. How large does a minority have to be to be considered an issue?

Talk about 'the majority' all you want, but there's extent of choice and informed choice, and opportunity, and availability and all kinds of factors that the consumers don't want to consider, because it ruins their perception of an industry that exploits the desperation of its employees in the very countries that you say has a more liberal attitude to it.

Acceptance is not the same as liberation.

allabouteve

allabouteve wrote: »

A sizable minority of Asian girls in the sex industry had no choice.

Which I indicated by saying there was a difference between east & west.

Many of the bar girls in Pattaya Beach were sold into the industry by their impoverished families so they could work and send money home.

Yup. Not denying it.

I also consider a large minority of the whole 'Thai bride' industry to be a branch of the sex industry in that these women are offering themselves to western men as partners in order to finance their families at home. Because of poverty. Not choice.

Now this I can't agree with having known a fair number of girls who have been married through the whole mail-bride thing. Girls from the Philippines, China, and Russia. They wanted a different life to that of their parents, and their friends and were prepared to make any sacrifices needed to get out. If that meant marrying a foreigner, then they were willing to do just that. Choice.

It would be great to live in a world where all sex workers are in the industry because they made an informed decision to be, and lets face it, it would certainly make the consumers of the industry feel a lot better about themselves to believe that.

Sure, it would. However this is why we use the words majority or minority. We cannot include the whole population of such a huge industry spanning every part of the world as one opinion.

As for the consumers, some would care, some wouldn't. Thats human nature.

But its crimminally wrong to believe it to be the case. How large does a minority have to be to be considered an issue?

It is an issue. Just not the overwhelming issue you're trying to make it into.

Talk about 'the majority' all you want, but there's extent of choice and informed choice, and opportunity, and availability and all kinds of factors that the consumers don't want to consider, because it ruins their perception of an industry that exploits the desperation of its employees in the very countries that you say has a more liberal attitude to it.

Ok Thank you, I will talk about majority and minority if I so choose. And despite the above paragraph it doesn't really refute what I said.

Acceptance is not the same as liberation.

Whatever. Its about choice. Not such high minded ideals.

allabouteve

Deleted User wrote: »

Now this I can't agree with having known a fair number of girls who have been married through the whole mail-bride thing. Girls from the Philippines, China, and Russia. They wanted a different life to that of their parents, and their friends and were prepared to make any sacrifices needed to get out. If that meant marrying a foreigner, then they were willing to do just that. Choice.

Whatever. Its about choice. Not such high minded ideals.

My point Klaz, is that limited choice doesn't always constitute quality choice.

allabouteve

allabouteve wrote: »

My point Klaz, is that limited choice doesn't always constitute quality choice.

Fine. We can agree on this. But then quality choice is a luxury that many people worldwide don't get ranging from where they live, where/what they work at, if they study, etc.